Renovating an 40 year old bungalow Plumbing and heating system

Hedgecutter

Hi all.

I have a bungalow that i want to renovate. My home house that i grew up in. I had a builder in looking at it last year and he advised me to put in underfloor heating and move away from the kerosene and radiators. He said id need to investigate if I had a decent subfloor and work from there.  

Looking at old pictures recently, I noticed that the house was built on a slab of concrete as apposed to traditional foundation. Would it be possible to still put in underfloor heating? The builder explained that I might have to dig down, put in a subfloor, damp proof, and insulation and then pipe the underfloor heating. This won’t be possible with a slab foundation will it? Anyone experienced in this and would give me options. 

Wearb

I'd certainly advise you to get at least 2 more builders to advise. This is too big of a job to just jump in at the deep end.

monseiur

I would think twice before removing floors. Depending on steel reinforcement design under internal wall, chimney stack etc. you may compromise the whole structure of the house. Have a chat with your engineer first. Unless you have serious dampness issues or other problems with floors it may be best and more economical to leave well enough alone - digging up floors is a major undertaking and is slow a very labour intensive i.e expensive. It seems that your builder is advising you to install air to water or similar heating system, the fact is that retrofitting this type of system is just, at best, 60% of what you'd expect in a purpose built super insulated modern house. Of course it's possible to gut the whole house....but it may be more economical to demolish it and build new to a more modern design etc.

Instead invest in high quality triple glazed windows & doors, attic insulation, insulated dry lining on walls, zoned heating system high output radiators, condensing boiler etc.

Hedgecutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120216318#Comment_120216318

I totally agree. Slab foundation built in the early 1980's is a different animal. I was curious if there was a solution. I think the way you are suggesting might be my only option. House is in good condition. It was insulated 10 years ago. The window would make a huge difference and new heating system. All covered by grants i think.

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120216904#Comment_120216904

I'm not up to speed on recently updated grants but may be worthwhile applying for unless you can DIY which may work out cheaper without the hassle of grants etc., check SEAI website. You need a minimum of 300mm insulation in attic + TRV's on rads etc.

Hedgecutter

The house insulated under a scheme few years back. My elderly mother qualified for it at the time. Wall's pumped, attic and water tanks.

Wonder could I find out the rating from when they did that. Must investigate that.

TimHorton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120219138#Comment_120219138

Thermostatic Radiator Valve's are 12 Euro in Screwfix https://www.screwfix.ie/p/white-angled-thermostatic-trv-15mm-x-1-2-/60368 then down the road you can go smart for £40 per Rad using these https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0BKQWGSMC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1

Using Smart TRV's will lower your Oil Consumption , I added a smart TRV to a recently internally insulated Bedroom , With the Bedroom Radiators on this room was getting up to 24+ degrees very quickly and becoming too hot , Adding the TRV and setting it to 20 degrees leaves the room very comfortable using very little Heat (24 Hr Report Below)..3 More bedrooms to go and Smart TRV valves will be added as soon as I internally insulate those remaining 3 rooms.

doherta5

I'm also wondering about renovating a large 4-bed 70's rural bungalow. The current heating system is busted, burner doesn't work and the gun barrel piping is rotted through. However, there is a solar hot water heater combined with a solid fuel stove with back boiler.

I think my options are:

• replace the boiler and install new pipework that drops down from the ceiling;
• dig up the floors and lay new pipework with a new boiler;
• dig up the floors and install underfloor heating with air to water heat pump;
• carve underfloor heating channels in the concrete floor with air to water heat pump;

Does anyone have experience in replacing a traditional oil boiler and gun barrel system in a bungalow with something newer? Insulation isn't great and PVC double glazing is about 15 years old. The house is cold and damp in winter outside of the stove in the kitchen. A quote from one of the SEAI one-stop shops quoted about 50,000 without mentioning the pipework issue. That's a non-starter.

Ideas or advice welcome!

Ubbquittious

I would be very slow to get rid of a radiator system if it was working fine. You can get heat pumps now with higher flow temperature so theyll work with ordinary rads, though they are more expensive.

Digging up the floor to put in underfloor heating would be a right bastard of a job altogether.

monseiur

The general consensus is that retro fitting air to water or similar heating system doesn't work.

You have two options re. floors 1. Dig up and fit underfloor insulation and lay all heating and other pipework under new floor. 2. Leave floor as is and run new heating copper pipework along skirting board, you will have to open a small trench at front & back door. If oil boiler is very old (over 35 years) fit a new condensing oil boiler and use the solid fuel stove & solar (in summer) to heat domestic hot water. The oil boiler will automatically heat the domestic hot water in winter if you have an indirect copper cylinder - the ones with one or two coils.

Fit at least 300mm insulation in attic, consider dry lining the interior of all external walls with a minimum of 50mm insulated slab. If windows are in poor condition (and if your budget allows) consider replacing all windows and doors with, preferably, triple glazed windows. Depending on your location and prevailing wind etc. a storm porch at front/back door is a great addition for keeping heat in in winter, the idea is to close storm porch door before opening front/back door and reverse when leaving. In a busy house hold with kids etc and a lot of coming & going during the day it can make a huge difference and lower fuel bills.

There may be grants available for insulation & heating system etc., contact SEAI or check their website. There is no grant for new windows/doors to the best of my knowledge.

RidleyJones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058283337/renovating-an-40-year-old-bungalow-plumbing-and-heating-system

Dont believe the hype around A2W. I have a bungalow which was built in 80's and A2W will cost more than anything. I have an oil boiler, high insulation, smart radiator valves and installed new radiators etc and works a lot more efficient than A2W could ever hope to work.

Gael23

Would think twice before digging up floors, partly because I think the financial outlay would outweigh the benefit.

I do believe in A2W systems but again if significant upgrades are needed to make it work then a new condensing oil or gas boiler along with other measures would be better

doherta5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491827#Comment_120491827

This is really very helpful, thanks!

embracingLife

Insulated slab building regs recommends 100mm insulation not 50mm in a house. You'd be mad to fit 50mm, as 100 mm makes hell of a difference to heat retention than 50mm.

OP really needs to get other builders opinion and architect etc. Relying on this site for building advice isn't good idea.

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525832#Comment_120525832

If you are referring to my previous post re. 50mm insulated slab ....I did not recommend 50mm but a minimum of 50mm.😊 It's a 1970 bungalow and assuming the cavity is pumped, 50mm would make a huge difference. Besides there can be loads of practical issues with 100mm , if, for example internal door frames are fixed directly on external walls, it also reduces the size of the rooms considerably. There's also the cost aspect to be taken into account - It's obvious from the OP's original post that he's on a tight budget like 99% of home owners who are planning to upgrade/refurbish.

I have no doubt that the OP will get professional advise before embarking on a major and expensive project like this, but as ''there's more than one way to kill a cat'' it broadens the mind to get other people's ideas, opinions and practical experiences. For example certain architects/engineers (with a green hidden agenda) are pushing air to water as a viable heating system for the likes of the OP's house, which in reality does not work.

cillo2000

Hi Guys,

Sorry, I know the thread is a few months old - but my question(s) are on the same subject matter.

We're looking at renovating a late 1970 L shaped bungalow. I've had a few people look at it, they all more or less said it would be easier to knock it. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it, but things are starting to fail. The hot water circuit failed earlier this year so the heating won't be far behind. We've also had a few leaks in the roof. I've done some patch work, but it's hard to see where you'd stop if we were to renovate the existing structure.

Floors: The floors are very unlevel, there is 25mm insulation under the floor but in general their condition isn't great. The foor is about 60mm to the subfloor. The ceilings are about 2.6 high, so we could potentially put in 100-150mm of insulation + 50mm screed and then raise the doors heads.

External Walls: cavity 75mm with rockwool pumped into them in the early 90s

Internal walls: the subfloor looks like it's was poured as a slab and is deeper and thicker under the internal walls.

The house itself is 1250sqft, but the bedrooms are too small. Two are just 2.7x2.7m and the other two could just about be considered double rooms. The corridor is also long and narrow.

Getting to my questions finally:

@€170sqft to knock and build a dormer bunaglow in it's place, is it madness to consider.

*it would be hard to get planning for a two story in our area.

The site is tight, 10m free to the back and 10m on either side. So extending at the ground level would push us up against the boundaries, that's why we are thinking going up is a better idea... But it's expensive.

Anyway, if we go ahead with the new build - the current thinking is we'd reuse most of the foundations/rising walls as the site is sloped. Reusing the dead work would save us some money. But as the current cavity wall is 275mm, it would limit the new structure.

The builder has suggested using the other leaf and going with a timber frame on the inside.

Are there any other options? Is it possible the rising walls are block on the flat in the 1970s?? If so, could we use ICF? Or continue block on the flat and insulated the outside with EPS.

Any advise would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Cillo

monseiur

If you have the funds consider knocking it and replacing with a modern designed dwelling - you'll have a house that's future proofed for another 50 years. As you will be building on, more or less, the footprint of an existing building planning should not be an issue. If you're worried about getting planning for a two storey house go for a dormer bungalow instead, you should easily fit 2 full size bedrooms & bathroom upstairs + loads of storage space etc. Most of 1970's L shaped bungalows were long but narrow, so forget using the existing foundations, instead pour a rectangle raft foundation roughly the length of existing house but the width of the L shaped end of house assuming it's 30 feet. As a guide that will give you a centre corridor say 4 feet wide room each side 12 feet wide = 28 feet + external walls. In modern buildings using the correct insulation that is correctly fitted is key, whether it's underfloor, in the attic or in cavity walls. Also consider triple glazed uPVC or similar windows & doors.

Check the SEAI website you may qualify for grants for heat pump installation, solar panels etc. etc.