Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143909#Comment_122143909

It also gives the lie to the oft-repeated notion (here and elsewhere) that we can't just "send them back".

Yes we can, and we should be doing more of it. A lot more.

Let's face facts here folks...

Firstly, the only reason FF, Harris and the rest are making noises about tightening things up and sending people back is because of the upcoming elections. That's it!

The party bosses have looked at the predictions and are worried that their members will lose their seats on the gravy train, so the "big names" have been sent out to tell us things that the majority of people knew 2 years ago!

If the elections were still over a year or so away we'd still be continuing with the free for all, make no mistake.

Secondly, the facts are that highly educated, well paid, permanently employed Irish people can't even find or afford a home of their own and live in fear of a landlord raising rents or turfing them out, or are chafing with the frustration of being back in their childhood bedrooms.

The State and state-funded NGOs are actively buying up properties for social housing and buy to rent. Rent that is largely subsided by the same taxpayers who don't qualify for them and who are outbid for them or just not allowed to buy them in the first place.

Now yes we have a long standing problem with our own native cohort of (generational) "gimmie" types that successive governments have failed to deal with - and we badly need to reform that welfare/social housing system to address the "social housing for life" system that exists - but they at least do have at least some entitlement to it by virtue of birth.

We were told that allowing tens of thousands of random people to arrive and stay wouldn't affect the housing situation. Well that was yet another (obvious) lie. How could it not?

I've said it before. Skilled migrants with jobs to come to, the ability to support themselves and be productive and positive members of the community and society they've joined are always welcome, and this is largely self policing by means of the visa system, job market and their ability to find somewhere to live. If these things don't exist, they don't come. With very rare exceptions, employers will not pay for someone's housing - certainly not in the long term.

Thirdly, we as a country and people have historically, and still do currently, more than our fair share to help those less fortunate in the world. Whether it be through fundraising or donations to charities (the effectiveness of which is another issue), by sending peacekeeping forces to hot spots (risking our own lives), or putting political pressure on issues abroad to highlight them.

Even during the recession years we were still giving away over 650 million euros in foreign aid annually - a figure which is nearly 2 billion now! That's a LOT of money for a small island of 5 million people with all the domestic problems we face and it's on top of the refugees and asylum seekers, and most recently Ukrainians that we're sheltering and paying for.

In short, we've more than done our part. Charity begins at home and we have more than enough needy, urgent and actually deserving cases right here.

Fourthly, our "obligations". Political treaties and laws are not written in stone, never to be changed or repealed, and nor are they intended to be suicide pacts for any country that signed to them - in many cases decades ago when the country and indeed the world was a very different place.

As we saw during the aforementioned recession and financial crisis years, EU rules and laws were changed, ignored or replaced rapidly to respond to the needs of the member nations. Most recently we've seen how our own planning laws, eligibility requirements for social welfare services and other "rules" have been set aside in response to the immigration crisis we face.

Laws change with every new Government. That's why it's so important we as citizens take part in the process. Make our feelings known to our representatives, insist they listen and respond (and not just coming up to the elections) and if they don't, replace them at the ballot box with someone who will.

Finally, we need to get over the insecure need to be "liked" and approved of and validated - particularly on the international stage. The truth is (as we saw again during the financial crisis) that countries and politicians will do what is right for them domestically first and foremost and regardless of notions of solidarity and institutions like the EU. This is fundamentally human nature and goes back generations and thousands of years. You look after your family and your tribe and you engage with others for their benefit. Preferably mutually beneficial yes, but at its core is the need to do what's needed to prosper at home.

There is nothing wrong with this. Sometimes it's OK and indeed necessary to put ourselves and our needs first. We have only so many resources, can only do so much and need to be able to feed, house and look after our people too.

While as decent human beings and a modern society we of course feel a responsibility to help others (and rightly so), we cannot let that help compromise our ability to support ourselves.

Ultimately folks, this is our future that is at stake. The future of our country, our society, our community, and the future of our families and the families they will have too.

When asked to have your say in the months ahead, go and make your feelings known at the ballot box. Demand changes if you know things are wrong. Look at the policies of the parties and representatives. Ask them questions. Satisfy yourself with the answers before you give a preference.

It's up to us. No one else is going to do it for us!

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122142827#Comment_122142827

The other way of looking at this is the ability to bring in nurses from other countries is the get out of jail card for the HSE/Government.

If we had no other option (and its not just nurses obviously) they would be forced to address the calamity that is the HSE.

zell12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144072#Comment_122144072

1004 word essay 😀 A+

zell12

75 tents on the Royal Grand Canal this morning, according to news reports

edit: got canal name wrong

tom23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144072#Comment_122144072

excellent post as always. Fair and considerate. If only our politicians applied that instead of their bulshit.

john123470

" … When asked to have your say in the months ahead, go and make your feelings known at the ballot box. Demand changes if you know things are wrong. Look at the policies of the parties and representatives. Ask them questions. Satisfy yourself with the answers before you give a preference .."

This is all well and good but Who do we vote for that is any different ? They are all shoisters who will lie their way into power. We are simply fcuked.

Promises will invariably be broken. How can you listen to a government who reneged on its election pledges to its own people and invited in every Tom, Dick and Mohamed with promises of own door accomodation and free money !! They even translated the invite into 7 languages to make it easier for the poor economic migrants

Only way of getting the government to listen would be if 3 million (born and bred) Irish people got off their arseses and marched on Dail Eireann to demand why we are being sold out;

Or / If Irish people collectively held this government to account in the international court in the Hague for cultural genocide .. the mcentees, varadkers, the o gormans, martins and all the other self-servers

Meanwhile, its just beyond depressing .. 4 more years of same and worse coming up. No escape

The really sad part is that these "economic migrants" in their turn, will want political representation a few years down the line. People with polar opposite ideas of right and wrong, people who disapprove of your lifestyle .. you will then be expected to adapt to their ways of living simply because they outnumber you.

"Integrate" Lols

DebDynamite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143798#Comment_122143798

Funny, the people they were labeling far right mainly for being pragmatic and seeing what was unfolding, are the ones who have drawn attention to the whole mess, and attracted international media to cover the story. Because of that, some kind of message might have gone back home to the lads that Ireland was no longer a welcoming country and to maybe try somewhere else. We possibly could have had more asylum seekers otherwise and the whole situation a whole lot worse!

Had there been no resistance from the “far right” / people with common sense, and in turn the media coverage that ensued, I have no doubt the government would’ve continued along with the same head in the sand attitude, and not be making any attempt to try and resolve the mess they have created.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143798#Comment_122143798

26,000 to 30,000!?!? We're f**ked, there is no way we can take that many. We have no proper border checks/controls for asylum applications so there is no way to stop them.

In every other country you claim asylum at the border, in Ireland you claim on Mount Street, get a tent and wait.

The horse has bolted, we're to late.

There's tents popping up all over Dublin city now.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143842#Comment_122143842

What A strang take. Not everyone posts an opinion simply so they can get likes.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143879#Comment_122143879

I quite agree, the lack of preparation for this, the very slow response to deal with matters all show our government & opposition to be either inept or deceitful. They are starting to make noises now that canvassers are getting their ears burnt and elections coming up.

I don't know what to make of it fully. Perhaps our political classes inc the likes of the Labour Party see this as an opportunity, to take in a large young labour force that will do lower paid jobs and in time help fund the pension problem. Maybe others want to build a new Irish society that is a blend of all nationalities, cultures and religions.

Either way, I know none of them have actually consulted us the Irish public as to how we see the future of the country. And therein lies a simmering anger, immigration is fine like everything in moderation. But overdo it and start affecting lives of many resident citizens and the political establishment can hardly complain about angry responses to them. They are the authors of their own misfortune when it comes to comments they receive.

Ozvaldo

Any main stream party opposed to this what are our options here ?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144229#Comment_122144229

You have your opportunity in the upcoming local & Euro elections. Vote for anyone other than the current political party reps and sitting MEPs. Anyone.

I'll guarantee you that if the parties lose large numbers of seats in these elections, it will be seismic in effect.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144229#Comment_122144229

Interesting point on this is that the IT poll today shows FG increasing their vote share and SF continuing their freefall.

FG and SF are now on equal terms at 23% vote share each.

I have said for months that we will most likley see a return of the FFG govt & this is looking even more likley now.

Independents seem to have stalled at 17%.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144072#Comment_122144072

i don't know who you are in the real world and if you every considered either public life or doing media work, but your posts speak volumes.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144427#Comment_122144427

The polls today are showing a big increase for FG and an accelerated drop for SF.

FG now top party again. Sharing first place with SF.

Its only a poll i know, but has there been a bounce with Harris taking over? It appears so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144391#Comment_122144391

I genuinely feel they are a just a pack of naive incompetents. The weakest and most damaging Govt in the history of the state by their ineffectiveness.

This is what happens when a docile middle class sits on their holes in the face of extraordinary incompetence. Scandal after scandal no accountability. The French would have rioted over the children's hospital increasing costs.

And yet here we are - a major poll bounce for FG this morning. People will blame the greens.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144198#Comment_122144198

Is that in addition to the 90 on the Grand Canal?

wow upto 90 again already.

now you can’t fix any problem without addressing the root cause.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144536#Comment_122144536

a paid for poll taken in leafy suburbs no doubt.

Maybe I'm wrong and will be different in the secret of the polling booth, but anyone I talk will not be voting FG.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144398#Comment_122144398

I’d echo Augme on this one, while our opinions don’t usually align putting down conversation is not what we should be about collectively, all “sides”.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144568#Comment_122144568

I see your point, but either way the same poll previously had SF on well over 30%.

I dont think there is much doubt SF are losing support.

I think the question is are their votes going to independents or back to FFG.

Tenzor07

SF have lost major support over the last year, and from listening to some of their representatives on political TV programs it's hard to see what better solutions they offer over FFFG, it appears they are blending in with the aforementioned just so they have a broader appeal to non-FFFG voters. I recall one of the SF reps. being asked what's the difference between them and FF..he was stumped.

I personally don't believe they will do anything new about the Migrant crisis.. Or any other Crises we have in Ireland, i.e. Health, housing, Justice, Defence… the list goes on.

Indestructable

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122124904#Comment_122124904

5 days and back up to 90 tents…

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143948#Comment_122143948

As usual it's a case of why let the truth get in the way of a good story...

I said people were concerned about immigration, but far more so about the activities of the anti-immigration movement.

There are numerous cases before the courts now which I can't mention, but I don't think the recent 'hang the traitors' and swastika messages directed towards politicians have helped the anti-immigration cause, if you could call it that.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144534#Comment_122144534

Thanks - actually really appreciate that.

My background is in IT and management but I've always fundamentally had a belief in fairness and what's right. These may be trite concepts these days but things like the waste, incompetence, corruption and apathy that's displayed across so much of our services, governance and leadership genuinely annoys me.

I hate the "be grand" attitude that dominates these things, or the admiration for the "cute hoor" that very much still exists. They enable all of these things. The politicians we get are because we don't engage properly as a society and too many people quietly know that they'd do many of the same things if they had the chance/the balls. There's no thought of the longer term consequences, the impact to people or society, or any real direction for the country. We're entirely reactive and we are completely subservient to the demands of others - lobbyists, the EU, "big business" etc..

It really frustrates me that people who try to do things right and play by the rules is not only unrewarded but seen as stupid by the same segment of society as the above.

We need to really take a step forward. Get involved in the process, think of the bigger picture, and what sort of country do we want to live in and leave to our families.

As I said, no-one else will do it for us.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143571#Comment_122143571

How do we compete with foreign countries, especially the oil-rich ones, willing to pay Irish trained doctors and nurses more than we can afford?

It's a complex issue but one I think easily solved with some hard borders controls to prevent young Irish people leaving.

'Keep them here! Keep them here!'

SuperBowserWorld

I think Ireland hasn't had to deal with any real issues as a nation before. Normally we hope the problem goes away or someone else tackles it.

We have been ridiculously lucky benefiting from science and technology advances and investments from MNCs in these areas. That + English speaking + EU membership = Goldilocks economy.

This government will try and spend its way out of a difficult problem. This will blow up the national debt and destabilize the country. They are desperately trying to avoid another housing bust by increasing demand and reducing supply. It's like an unfunny cartoon.

They don't have any other cards to play. That's all they understand. We got a slap in the face in 2008 and our permanent government did not learn from that.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143855#Comment_122143855

Maybe some of those coming to Ireland were part of the 3593 who disappeared from Danish detention centres between 2016 and 2019.

Are they living undocumented in Denmark or scattered around Europe?

Or maybe it was people deterred by Danish policies who came to Ireland instead?

Doesn't bode well for the Danish approach as a viable EU solution.

https://unbiasthenews.org/living-in-fear-in-copenhagen-how-denmark-is-deliberately-infringing-on-the-rights-of-people-seeking-asylum/

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141422#Comment_122141422

Yes. You do all those things, and that's great. But you have been enabled to do many of those things by virtue of the fortunate circumstances you were born into. You were born into good healthcare, a stable society that allowed you to grow up peacefully and to access a high level of good education and training.

You own land and keep it well — but your land is in a temperate climate, you are largely not at risk of it being ruined by natural disaster or destroyed by war or of it being taken from you without legal recourse. Your right to private quiet possession of your land is protected by a strong rule of law.

You pay taxes — because you live in a country with a functioning administration of taxation which is again supplemented by strong rule of law. Should misfortune befall you, there are many safety nets to at least break that fall.

You served your country's defence forces and this is to be respected, but you chose to do so — you were never put in a position of having to take up a gun to defend your home, or indeed simply having to flee your home because an invading army or group of maniacs came with guns.

This is not to say you should feel bad about this, or guilty. My objection is to those who demean migrants without acknowledging that much of the distinction between "us and them" in terms of our wonderful educated trained Western refinement is based on pure luck. And despite the fact that many of them have navigated an obstacle course in life far harder than the one we had to, and grafted hard, there is still a narrative pushed that poorer migrants are just lazy spongers.

It is easily possible to be pro-controlled migration without that mentality — but some would appear to believe they are mutually exclusive.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144391#Comment_122144391

I don't work for the Government or an NGO...

But George Soros pays me per post...

Cha-ching keep it coming 💸🤑🪙🫰💰💲