Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093191#Comment_122093191

Why are people like yourself so obsessed with the term 'NGO'?

Any time I see these loons our protesting they're shouting about NGOs, as if it's some sort of bogeyman. I was even accused of being part of an NGO many times when debating with folks over on some right wing Facebook groups.

'Everyone I disagree with is in an NGO'

Not sure what that is about at all.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093109#Comment_122093109

This passed through argument is boring and not relevant

Um.. it absolutely IS! You may not be able to come up with a coherent response to that uncomfortable reality, but these people are supposedly seeking refuge from immediate dangers. Travelling through half a continent, and through many safe and stable countries in the process most definitely is at odds with that concept.

The countries you claim they passed through also take a huge allocation of refugees, more than Ireland

You are aware of the concept of proportionality I assume? Those countries are physically much larger, in many cases with far bigger populations, resources and abilities than a small island of 5 million people with huge domestic problems already.

Also, those countries will make their own decisions on what's enough - just as we should be doing

People may come to Ireland for various reasons…

Then they're not really refugees or asylum seekers are they? They're economic migrants or opportunists. Not the same thing, and trying to circumvent our processes for managing economic migrants by claiming to be something else isn't acceptable either.

They're not obliged to stay in the first country…

Then they're not really refugees or asylum seekers are they? They're tourists seeking the best reception. A genuine refugee/AS would be happy to find the first, closest port that would offer safety from the imminent threat they were fleeing. Skipping on through several other countries belies that concept.

But again, even if you find it uncomfortable, the reality is that these people are not forced/obliged/required to stay here if the conditions are not to their liking. I can understand why it's not, but they are free to leave and try to find a country more to their liking or expectations. It's not for Ireland to solve all their problems and desires (and especially not at the cost it's having to our own needs), nor are we obliged to rehouse the 3rd world just because they land at our door with a (potentially false) sad story.

Misguided idealists like yourself are just as much part of the problem as the weak politicians and chancers. You're helping no-one but cheerleading a situation that is worsening for everyone. That, or you're sufficiently insulated from the reality of what's happening (as most TDs are) that the pontificating and grandstanding just comes off as wholly divorced from that reality and in fact stokes more resentment as a result.

thegame983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093250#Comment_122093250

The recent referendum proved that it is the government/media/ advocacy groups who live in an 'echo chamber.'

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093233#Comment_122093233

For the umpteenth time theres no comparison with an Irish person applying for a work visa in the US, Canada, Australia etc, supporting themselves there and a lad coming from Africa to Ireland via numerous safe countries and expecting to be housed and supported here. No one has an issue with people applying to work here, I work with loads of different nationalities. Its the free loaders people have an issue with, nothing to do with racism.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093248#Comment_122093248

It would not be easy to do, but morally and in everyone's interests it would be the best solution. Safe transport of legitimate migrants to Europe I would prefer, rather than them being at the mercy of traffickers and gangs in North Africa and Asia.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093264#Comment_122093264

Not sure what to make of the term " people like yourself "

My only gripe with NGO's is the fact that they are taxpayer funded , paying themselves fat salaries and in my opinion do little more than rant and rave advocating policies that are very little benefit to the average irish taxpayer.

Just to address another reference to masked protesting. 100% have no time for such intimidatory tactics. But also 100% think that something will have to change and soon because society in Ireland is at a tipping point.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093270#Comment_122093270

the referendum really tells us nothing more about the political leanings of the general population than that they did not agree with amendments proposed.

You can of course assume the entire electorate agrees with you on everything based on agreeing with you on rejecting the two questions in a referendum but you have to understand others may assume anyone doing so is not the most clued in individual.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093270#Comment_122093270

They're an unpopular government undoubtedly.

But still only 30% of the population voted against those bills, and it looks like even then you're assuming that this 30% hold more extreme views on immigration, with no evidence whatsoever.

The same thing with that Daily Mail poll, 80% having concerns about immigration becomes 80% support Rwanda, or hard border etc.

_Puma_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093191#Comment_122093191

Nail on the head.

Our politicians arent listening to us. McDowell demonstrated it in the referendums.

They don't listen to us because there is more money being made with the alternative and something else has their ear.

They demonstrated with NTMK that they don't fear us either.

But there is a big change in wind coming this summer.

The NGOs(tools for a means to an end) who have the ear of the current government will be hedging their bets for who gets in next. This is why you will always hear them say "who is the alternative"

That I believe is the biggest threat to actually getting to grips with this crisis enveloping the country now. It should and will be called out at every opportunity given. There is always an alternative in an open democracy.

Its gone beyond a left v right debate now in my opinion. It's boiling down to a common sense issue at base level and the Irish people are thankfully good with this. The NGOs and their cheerleaders on this thread have perfectly shown they aren't too good on this front. It's why their playbooks have failed across Europe. Hopefully it's not a case we are Paddy last to realise this here too.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093267#Comment_122093267

Great Post 👏👏👏👏

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093281#Comment_122093281

Again, another example of someone just flying off on the basis of assumed points that absolutely no one is making or arguing with you about. So let's rewind this back:

- One contributor says that foreign people should remain in their own countries to make those countries better.

- Other contributor points out that Irish people also emigrate, so they don't stay in Ireland to make Ireland better.

- Your response is : YEAH BUT IRISH PEOPLE DO IT LEGALLY!! Well, I'm looking around the room here and I must say I'm failing to see who is arguing otherwise. It's not the point being made.

But even if we make it the point. To say there is "no comparison" between Irish migrants and migrants here. Really? Zero comparison? There is literally no comparison to be made between two people who leave their country and move to another country and take up housing in that other country and also avail of the services of that country that could otherwise have been taken up and availed of by the native population of that country? There is no comparison there? Zilch?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093094#Comment_122093094

So you agree with intimidating politicians families?

gerogerigegege

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093191#Comment_122093191

I feel you anger and frustration.

None of us should have a wreckless government making us feel this way, having to check in to see what stupid crap they're up to everyday.

If this isn't stopped there will be serious civil unrest and my guess is it won't be directed at asylum seekers but those making the decisions.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093250#Comment_122093250

There was a poll recently which suggested that 90%+ of the public never interact with any political content on social media (instead they're watching and interacting with stuff like entertainment, sport, music, fashion, beauty, food, travel etc). It's very easy for an angry and shouty minority to give the impression they are speaking on behalf of the entire country.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093087#Comment_122093087

Ah go away, how many times has this old trope been recycled. It's past it's sell by date long ago. You need to come up with better reasons than that.

I have great admiration for those who did stay in Ireland and contributed to society and the state here.

Headshot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093394#Comment_122093394

This government is helping the far right prosper if you think about it.

The far right are emboldened at the moment due to this governments many many reckless decisions with immigration being top of the list.

None of us what to see hotels set a blaze, Gardai being attacked but when you have a government that doesn't listen to it's citizens and forcing their immigration policy on locals by taking away hotels etc, this is feeding ground for the far right to prosper.

gerogerigegege

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093264#Comment_122093264

NGOs like nasc, immigration council of Ireland don't believe in borders or the rule of law when it comes to immigration they are a cancer on the country.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093423#Comment_122093423

A lot more would have had to leave were it not for remittances coming home.

gerogerigegege

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093440#Comment_122093440

People burning buildings aren't far right.

They are ordinary people radicalised by a rogue failed government forcing changes on their communities.

Tbeyve been left with no other option.

Sunny Disposition

Everyone who wants to come to Ireland should be allowed. That’s the reality, it will make the world a better place if absurd concepts like borders are removed.

These people arguing against immigration make me laugh, you guys know Ireland had more people pre 1845 right?

Anyway no moves should be made this year, it is very important that we don’t end up doing anything that Trump would approve of, although we have our own idiots looking for a wall to be built.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093411#Comment_122093411

There was also another poll that showed 80%+ thought the increase in non nationals was a growing problem.

But you won't hear their views on RTE. RTE is now more under the thumb of government than it ever was. You'll rarely hear an interview with a politician these days there, that doesn't refer to funding of RTE in some shape or form. The message is clear.

The views such as you often represent are completely over represented on RTE. Just like the recent referendums, there is simmering distrust.

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093469#Comment_122093469

There's this peaceful means of causing governmental change called an "election", you might have heard of it.

If it is widely considered a "rogue failed government" then the majority of the public need to accept some accountability for that since they were the ones who enabled it.

It wouldn't surprise me if the majority of protestors in rural areas were FF & FG voters, at what point do they hold themselves responsible rather than causing hotel owners and refugees to suffer for their mistake?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093479#Comment_122093479

Yep, send them to Hell or Connnacht. Plenty of room on the bogs down there where they can live in mud botháns and scrape out a few drills for spuds. That's how substantial numbers lived pre 1845.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093307#Comment_122093307

Quit deluding yourself. Some boxes in working class areas and other parts that have had to shoulder the worst of this nonsense had boxes with 90% no.

The government response to migrants over the last few weeks and the increasing harder rhetoric is a response to the absolute pasting they got in the referendum and in anticipation of the absolute hiding they will get in the locals.

It's quite clear that a majority are not happy with migration policy, mount skid, the taking over of hotels and the forcing of these centres on the population has made a significant proportion of the electorate quite angry.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093447#Comment_122093447

If that's the case, then why don't people talk about them specifically, rather than using a vague catch all term like 'NGOs'?

Is it perhaps because a lot of people shouting about NGOs don't actually know what they are shouting about specifically and are just parroting a phrase they've read on nationalistic Facebook groups?

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093267#Comment_122093267

I am reading this and I am trying to see what the logic is here.

You are bemoaning the concept of refugees (genuine or otherwise) passing through safe countries to reach another country. OK.

So your view is that only the safe neighbouring countries or first safe country of arrival should be hosting refugees. Is that a fair interpretation of your views?

If so — why are you bringing proportionality into the equation? If you think refugees shouldn't be travelling through one safe country to another, then by definition the neighbouring/closest safe countries or countries with the best travel links to the origin state would be disproportionately affected?

And in reality, this is more or less what does happen. In the European context, countries like Poland had to take in a pretty vast number of Ukrainians — while Italy, Greece and other countries bear the brunt of migration from the south and the east. But allowing these countries to bear the disproportionate burden of coping with the issue is proving to actually be counter-productive to effective tackling of illegal migration.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093267#Comment_122093267

I disagree with practically every point you make.

People are travelling here to make a better life for themselves just like the Irish did in the last couple of centuries.

You, despite what you claim, do not know the circumstances they faced to make them leave their home country. It's not always as clear cut as war.

They can't all go to the one country, and countries like France or Germany , despite their large size cannot cope with them all and they already take in a lot.

Following your logic, Ukrainians should really only be in Poland.

An asylum seeker travelling through another country to get to a destination is not wrong and they may have various reasons to choose a different country, such as language, connections already there, opportunities etc.

This does not make them tourists as you claim.

The fact is the vast majority of them just went to improve their lives. They've shown they have get up and go and most will not be the type just expecting to rely on state handouts.

When given the opportunity they will work, and contribute to society.

However, posters like you just refuse to hear or see this. Claimingh they're from the third world , which doesn't exist any more is just ignorance. People claim they're here to sponge off the state or are dangerous unvetted criminals.

As if the whole Irish people are vetted or don't commit crimes.

Last month an innocent Croatian , who is complete entitled to be here was murdered by 2 irish lads but this hardly gets mentioned.

The terrible attack last December in Parnell Square was stopped by an immigrant.

But now we have rough loudmouths, in places like Newtownmountkennedy, draping the Irish flag disrespectfully around them, screaming at Gardai and even screaming out prayers in hateful manner to show their culture. Same people intimidating construction workers going to work. The other day a video was circulating of a violent man, stopping his pick up in the middle of NTMK screaming at foreigners to get the "f" out of his town and now even this morning numb-skulls protesting outside Simon Harris's family home.

That's not the Ireland I want and I don't see how anybody can praise that. This is also not the fault of asylum seekers.

However, posts like seen here and the xenophobic (which is exactly what it is ) comments here and online are feeding into that spiteful group thing and any dissenting voice like mine offering an alternative view gets shot down by insults, or labels or saying you're part of the problem.

This is also symptomatic of the biggest problem facing this country at present which is housing, which the governments,we have elected over the last 40 years have made a complete mess of. If housing was more affordable and accessible for Irish people than it is now then I don't think we'd have the same reaction to asylum seekers that we see at present.

That and health and cost of living is the biggest issues facing us not immigration as the media would have you believe.

I'm actually one who thinks that countries are enriched by immigration and when you look at successful countries you see it built by immigration.

Anyhow, no doubt very few will agree with my points and will continue to scapegoat people who are trying to improve their lot, which is a normal human behaviour, so I'll back out now as there's just no point in continuous back and forth arguing with people who do not want to listen to other viewpoints and lack basic respect and dignity for fellow human beings.

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093094#Comment_122093094

It wont make any difference what they do ultimately if you project this issue far enough down the path it’s on now without some form of enactable plan. If 100,000 or do keep arriving, keep having to be paid for and keep getting shoved into developments shoehorned into remote towns and villages all over the country at the expense of tourism and all the other resources it takes to accommodate them then this only leads to one place ultimately. Massive civil unrest.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093411#Comment_122093411

But this isn't really about who shouts the loudest or has the biggest social media following.

Surely most rational people can see the knife edge the country is on.

This isn't conspiracy or gaslighting. Health system is broken , housing is well gone beyond broken at this stage. Law and order less said the better. By every metric ireland is not in a good place at present and our political class are beyond useless.

I have over 20 years financial and Economics background and I honestly believe we have dark Economic days ahead. 61% of current GDP is FDI based. That's 4 times EU average. We are up to our necks between Troika bailout and Covid relief monies. A rational and responsible government and electorate would use current tax take to secure all our futures.

But what are the government, cheered on by some of the public and NGO's doing. Inviting more people into a country that is breaking at the seams.

What is so difficult to realise and understand this situation. It's not lies or far right bulls#it , it is where ireland is currently at.