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Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

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  • 27-01-2023 6:09pm
    #1
    Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Let's get this out of way. We have to support Ukrainians because Russia is threatening a European democracy.

    No issue here but I think outside of this we should aim for a zero refugee policy.

    It's ridiculous that some people are arriving in Ireland having skipped over an entire continent.

    We simply do not presently have the room.

    Perhaps in future the West will design a modern refugee system that actually reflects modern transport rather than the farce of pretending that a person travelling thousands of miles is a true refugee.

    I'm not racist. I have no issue with legal immigration and a reformed refugees system

    But until that let's follow Denmark

    Mod warning posted 06/03/23

    Personal so called anecdotes are what caused the original Ukrainian refugee thread to be closed

    Any more can expect threadbans

    Any questions PM me - do not respond to this warning in thread


    Mod warning posted 11/04/23

    A reminder

    This thread is about refugees not people who migrate to Ireland for other reasons

    Any questions PM me - do not respond to this post in-thread


    Mod warning posted 13/04/23

    A warning to everyone . If you cannot be civil do not post. If you think someone is posting inaccurate information, or indeed trying to twist facts to suit their agenda, do not accuse them of lying. Point out their inaccuracies and move on. This thread is taking an inappropriate proportion of mod resource and we will deal with that by removing posting privileges if posters cannot follow some very straightforward mod instructions or indeed forum or site rules

    Mod warning posted 17/05/23

    Drop any further discussion about the current situation in Ukraine. There is a thread dedicated to the conflict. This thread is about Ireland's refugee policy

    Mod warning posted 26/11/23

    No discussion of the stabbings or subsequent riots permitted

    Mod waring posted 5/1/24

    This thread is nothing to do with Sharia Law, so please drop that discussion

    Mod warning posted 3/5/24

    No discussion of anything before the courts permitted anywhere on this site

    Mod warning posted 11/5/24

    This thread is about Ireland's Refugee policy. It is not a general immigration thread and it will be closed as the previous immigration thread was if posters continue to try and push it in that direction


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    Post edited by Ten of Swords on


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 82,826 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The Denmark exception for ukraine proves there will always be an exception and a zero refugee policy is not practical. Sounds great around election time though I bet.

    edit: This was an amazing photo on reddit the other day, this is a current ISS image of Ireland and the UK. You can see how disparate the population density is between the two countries. Probably belongs here, click for full res. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/10irlba/england_and_ireland_on_a_rare_clear_day/


    Post edited by Overheal on


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Did you read the article? Denmark negotiated an opt-out (among many) decades ago from Justice and Home Affairs after they rejected the Maastricht Treaty via referendum. If you want to get in a time machine and have a do-over of Maastricht, call up your mate Marty McFly to see if you can borrow the DeLorean.

    We can't go picking and choosing the EU laws we adhere to. We're either in or we're out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,428 ✭✭✭NSAman


    Vote Yes for Jobs... if I remember correctly!



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2




  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Marcos


    Yet Ireland has an opt out on the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice, like Denmark. Under EU law the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice (AFSJ) covers is "a policy domain concerning home affairs & migration" Denmark has a similar opt out. The Danes excercised theirs, but the Irish powers that be in thrall to NGO's have chosen not to excercise ours. Our involvement in taking the numbers that we are currently taking in and can't accommodate, is entirely voluntary and can be changed overnight, if the powers that be wished it. So please let's drop that canard, that we have to do it, the big bad EU made us do it.

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Marcos


    Oh, and for those slow on the uptake, this is a quote from the horses mouth:

    Ireland currently has no European Union obligation to take in refugees as it has an opt-in or opt-out clause on individual proposals in the areas of freedom, security and justice through the EU Treaty of Lisbon.

    Those who don't wish to acknowledge this, feel free to look away, put your hands over your ears and scream la la la la la I can't hear you. Or something similar.

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,826 ✭✭✭✭Overheal



    Next paragraph reads ... However, Ireland has chosen to participate in EU relocation and resettlement schemes and established the Irish Refugee Protection Programme (IRPP) as part of its response to the 2015-16 migrant crisis.

    Under this programme, Ireland committed to accept up to 4,000 people into the State through EU and UNHCR Refugee Resettlement Programmes.

    In December 2019, plans were unveiled for Ireland to welcome up to a further 2,900 refugees between 2020 and 2023 through a combination of resettlement programmes and a new Community Sponsorship Ireland initiative.

    Ireland benefited from €68.6 million of EU funding to help manage migration from 2015 to 2020. The funding was made up of €58.1 million from the Asylum, Migration and Integration Fund (AMIF) and €10.5 million from the Internal Security Fund (ISF).

    The AMIF supports Member States in managing migration flows while funding under the ISF supports efforts to protect the security of citizens and manage the EU’s external borders. The total EU AMIF allocation for 2021-2027 will amount to €9.9 billion. The overall ISF budget for the period will be around €1.9 billion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Yeah I posted that in the other thread I’m now banned from. We had the opt out and choose not to use it.

    Kieran Cuddihy has O Gorman on now giving out to him that there are loads of community centres and parish halls we could be using. He played a tape interviewing some 18 year Yemen lad who flew in from Greece last night and has nowhere to stay



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    O Gorman saying they’re looking at hotels still as well as quoting our “obligations “ again. Cuddihy asked why can’t we use basketball courts to house them



  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Marcos


    However, Ireland has chosen to participate . . .


    Note the word chosen? It's there in black and white that it's a choice, we're not being made to do it by the big bad EU as some politicians / civil servants / NGOs etc dishonestly tell us. And dishonesty is a large part of their argument IMO.

    As a society, I think we need to be able to have an honest debate about the pros and cons before we can make a proper decision on what to do. But there are a lot of vested interests who don't want to have such a debate because the current situation suits them. Despite more and more people questioning whether it is sustainable. The current situation is also causing large numbers of the electorate to feel increasingly alienated from their elected representatives and politics in general. I think we can all agree that this is not a good thing.

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Its not possible under international law. We signed upto the 1951 UN Geneva Convention. We have legal obligations as a state.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,098 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Ukranian and war refugees absolutely, anyone else "sorry no room at the inn".

    Its open season on our immigration policy or lack of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    So the opt out option we were offered when voting on Lisbon treaty was a con?

    The 1951 convention trumps any EU referendum we were offered, is that right?, so Ireland was fooled again?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    We really don't. International law is both weak and hard to enforce. There's little to no cost to us if we decided to ignore it, especially given the context of what's happening. The health of the nation should trump a convention that we signed 70 years ago, when the world was a very different place.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Yeah we cant just ignore international law. The world doesnt work that way. Your claim of little to no cost is absurd nonsense.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Unfortunately leo and Simon C have their eyes on a big EU job and will continue to be good boys to secure that.

    Ireland traditionally tries to keep its head up the EU arse except for the night of the bank guarantee in which they decided to not get Europe's backing - allowing the EU to insist that the bail out was totally our idea.

    The only hope is that word gets round that coming to Ireland is a bad idea at present.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    You can though. International law isn't real law, especially in regard to such policies.

    Is International Law really a law?

    It is one of the most controversial questions that has been debated and on which jurist’s opinions hugely differ. One view considers International law not a true law, rather, a code of rule of conduct backed by morality. On the other hand, International law is considered to be a true law and is regarded as a law, similar to that of ordinary laws of a state, binding upon the citizens.

    What are the consequences if we decided to ignore them? As real laws usually have real consequences.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,621 ✭✭✭Kat1170


    What about the thousands of Irish economic migrants we export all over the globe every year. Are we happy to have them turned back because, well, what's good for the goose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭francie81


    Can someone enlighten me into how one applies for asylum when they happen to own 1 or 2 properties along with a business of some sort back home, I really do not get this I mean how are asylum’s assessed if at all?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,262 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Fair enough if they go there legally. Our so-called "undocumented" in the states I have zero sympathy for, they knew the rules and chose to chance it. Its embarrassing that year after year our dear leader travels over for the Paddys Day junket and begs to give these absolute chancers a break.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    You’re conflating people who migrate legally, secure visas, and often bring valuable skill sets, with current influx of spurious asylum claims, many of whom have either arrived from neighboring EU countries or conveniently destroyed their passports somewhere over the Irish Sea.

    Really? Try applying a smidgen of logic..



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,919 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Have we given up the pretence of them being refugees at this stage?!

    Pretty sure the main places paddies go you get in if you're of use to the country- oz, Canada, us, Dubai etc. They take who they need in and in the numbers required.

    The polar opposite of Ireland at the minute.



  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Sallywag37


    I think there should be a total and immediate ban on accepting any more refugees, from anywhere. The country is at breaking point in every conceivable respect. The tragedy of it is there would have been no need to even raise the idea if successive governments hadn't spent the last thirty years allowing countless thousands of economic migrants from safe countries to pretend they were refugees, or to shoehorn their way in here pre '04 by arriving in the latest stages of their pregnancies. That's before we even get into Bacik overturning the will of the people by sleight of hand or McEntee's amnesty for illegal immigrants. A thirty year long string of stupid decisions have left us unable to help people genuinely fleeing violence, and those poor souls have the cowards inside Leinster House and the liars outside it to thank for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,136 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Unfortunately leo and Simon C have their eyes on a big EU job and will continue to be good boys to secure that

    Which big jobs would these be? It's a claim that is often citied.

    I can think of maybe 5-6 ex politicians who took up jobs with the EU in the past 20-30 years and most of them didn't last very long in those jobs.

    So in your own time.


    Ireland traditionally tries to keep its head up the EU arse

    Except for Brexit and that time we took them to court to give an American company back billions. 🤷‍♀️



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,136 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    The country is at breaking point in every conceivable respect

    Calm down, it really isn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    I work with a lot of lovely people who have benefitted from our compassion in accommodating them as refugees. Some of them are now Irish Citizens and other are in the process of generating their existence here.

    I would not feel comfortable supporting any notions of this country not affording options or amnesty to foreign born persons who need somewhere safe to continue their lives?

    This country survived handsomely with over 2 million extra inhabitants, long before the invention of modern democracy and its' paraphernalia. I can't fathom how the topic of assisting a few tens of thousands a year in having a future is such an issue?

    The lack of compassion exhibited by some of these notions is not in the least bit endearing. Thinking that your birthright entitles you to some sort of choice on the options of the future of other people is extremely naive?

    Stop living your lives through fear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,621 ✭✭✭Kat1170




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Dufflecoat Fanny


    Is our system not kind of two faced in that we accept them all but reject most of them all eventually anyway? A quagmire of bureaucracy designed to put off by word of mouth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭keynes



    Clearly, and thanks in large part to the protests, the government position has changed, but they're too in thrall to international bodies to say so. Instead, they're relying on the welfare tourists and freeloaders to tell their mates on Tiktok. Could they bring in more if they really wanted to? Of course. It's completely incoherent to say there's space for Ukrainians but not for others. But something fundamental has changed. They'll soon get a curt call from Brussels, however, so I don't see this lasting; rather, they're testing the waters.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Sallywag37


    I wonder how calm you'd be if you'd spent the last twenty years on a housing list or the last twenty hours on a hospital trolly? I was born in the mid 70's and am constantly amazed at the erosion of Irish life, having been raised in what were supposedly the bad old days, where you could visit a GP later on the same day you made the appointment, be treated immediately in A&E, house prices were within the grasp of many working people and the average wait for social housing was three to four years. By the standards of my youth, this country is no longer liveable.



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