Littering from secondary school

Dinging

I live a street away from an all boys secondary school. 5th and 6th years are permitted to leave the school at lunchtime. The boys will buy their lunch in the local shop and on the way back to school will drop their lunch litter in the laneway and green area in my area. I have contacted the school but they are not engaging, the litter warden says all he can do is put up a sign and possibly get a bin installed outside the school. As the offenders are kids they cannot be fined. According to the school charter boys must not litter the area. Do I have any legal recourse here? or is this something I must suck up and live with.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058280757/littering-from-secondary-school

Legal recourse - Not really, at least not in practical terms.

I would persist with the school. The students are at school while this is occurring. I am surprised that the school are not engaging at some level at least.

Local authority’s proposals in terms of Bins and signage sounds practical also.

TooTired123

In what way do you think that the school are “legally” obliged to address the issue of the boys littering?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144656#Comment_120144656

Is that addressed at me?

I didn’t actually say they were legally obliged to deal with the issue, but the school are permitting these students to leave the school premises during lunchtime, and with that decision comes some degree of responsibility for the students conduct while off the school premises.

In terms of resolving the matter, the school are best positioned to monitor the issue and introduce sanctions where necessary. Any school worth its salt would find littering by students unacceptable. It also is damaging to its reputation.

The OP could consider meeting the principal by appointment, and ultimately if necessary make complaint to the board of management.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144661#Comment_120144661

I didn’t quote you so no, it was addressed to the OP.

kippy

If the school aren't engaging (which I find difficult to imagine) - you are you contacting? - I would consider a few photos on social media or the like to highlight the problem - not necessarily blaming anyone.

There's bound to be a local social media group that you can do this in.

Dinging

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144656#Comment_120144656

That's the purpose of the post. I want to determine if there is any legal recourse here. According to the DLR county council litter management plan they have the powers through their litter wardens to issue fines but they cannot do this to anyone under 18 years old. However, as the school facilitates letting the boys out at lunchtime and I have made the school aware of this I am looking for any legal way of making the school responsible for the littering.

Dinging

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144819#Comment_120144819

I have contacted via email the school secretary, the principal, the 5th and 6th-year heads, the assistant principals (there are 2 of them), the school chaplain, and the SLT (senior leadership team). Initially, I was told I was in breach of GDPR legislation as I did not have their permission to use their email addresses. I explained that these email addresses were previously public information. The only response I get is that they acknowledge receipt of my email. There has been no engagement from the school. I have also brought in the council litter warden into the correspondence with the school.

In proportioning blame for the litter. There is little or no litter during the summer holidays. I could walk through the area from one week to the next in the summer and the place would be spotless. When you have between 30 and 40 boys having lunch on a daily basis they generate a certain type of litter.

I made a YouTube video and sent this to the school showing how much the area was littered before Christmas but no response.

Speaking to neighbors this has been an ongoing issue for years. Some of them have been more militant than me. One guy would collect the rubbish, put on a balaclava and scatter the rubbish in the grounds of the school. Another neighbor has collected the rubbish and put it in the school reception.

MarkR

I'd get onto local councillors with your info. Let them deal with it.

Dinging

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144661#Comment_120144661

I think I need to bring this to the board of management's attention. I also need to bring this to the attention of my local government representatives. Some of the residents could be persuaded to stage some sort of protest in relation to the schools inaction.

The school has a relatively new principal who has no interest in addressing this issue. The previous principal would send out some boys on a weekly basis with bags and litter pickers to keep the area relatively tidy.

daheff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146293#Comment_120146293

I don't believe there is a legal way of making the school responsible.

Morally, yes, but legally is a different matter.

In any case, as the pupils are off site, and not under direct supervision of the school, hard to see how the school are responsible.

Email to the school cc'ing local TD/county councillors might be helpful

daheff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146412#Comment_120146412

I'd strongly suggest you do not contact pupils of the school. Most likely they are underage and it could be construed badly for you.

As for GDPR...I hope you had a good laugh at that one.

Dinging

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146499#Comment_120146499

The school secretary suggested if I saw the boys littering that I should confront them. I will not be going down this route.

Your only hope is to keep hammering away at the school. Tell them if they don't at least engage, you'll be taking it to social media, CC'ing local reps and TDs etc.

Under 18s can and are fined regularly, not sure where that line came from, probably as a way to fob you off. You can drive in this country as a 17 year old, to say they cannot be fined is obviously ridiculous. Driving unaccompanied, while not always done by minors, carries a 2 point penalty plus a fine of €120. These are often, though not exclusively, those who are U-18 and learning to drive.

Even if they couldn't be fined, for whatever reason, their legal guardians are usually responsible for any/all offences they cause. This is normally their parents, but there is a legal doctrine where the school essentially acts as parent in their stead. Look up the phrase "in loco parentis" for more on this.

The school are legally responsible and they know it. I'd suggest they're burying their head in the sand, hoping you'll just go away. Do not let them. Start a twitter account and take photos every day, tag the school, tag DLR CoCo, all the DLR TD's like Richard Boyd Barrett etc. Use provacative wording like "#[schoolname]litterbugs" etc. Encourage your friends and neighbours to do the same.

They've been ignoring it for years because they've been allowed to ignore it for years. Don't allow them to ignore it any longer, is my 2c.

Xterminator

School is neither legally or morally responsible for their students littering.

To claim they have a moral responsibility for students outside of the school grounds who are not under school supervision is just plain stupid. Nor do i think the OP can tag the litter and be sure it was dropped at lunch!. it could be dropped on the way to, from or at lunch. this does not materially affect the principle here though.

The council have a responsibility for enforcing littering bylaws. Primarily this is an issue for the council. you could meet with school and ask of they can educate/advise students, but other than appealing to them on the basis of being good neighbors, they bear no responsibility here.

See below.

[i]Local authorities are responsible for keeping public places under their control, clear of litter. Their duties include:

Street cleaning

Providing and emptying litter bins

Taking legal action against people who break or ignore the law

Local authorities also: Prepare litter management plans, in consultation with the local community. A plan must set out how the local authority will prevent and control litter and make people more aware of litter

Carry out litter pollution surveys and send the data to the National Litter Monitoring System, which assesses changes over time[/i]

thomas 123

Schools are a law onto themselves, you can bet your biscuit if that was inside the school they would be suspending away to their hearts content. They are a microcosm of their own self importance and someone in there decided your not worthy enough to receive a reply and has communicated this down.

Security camera up, catch a few littering and stick it up on Youtube with the school name as the first part of the title and see how quick they are to sort it out. Make sure you zoom in on the crest when editing!

spurious

Write, don't email. Signed for if necessary.

Very surprised the school have not engaged. The message may still be filtering through the ranks so to speak.

It's a win-win situation for them.

Teach the lads something.

Give the TYs/LCA/JSCP class a project (kids get out of classrooms so they'll be delighted).

Good publicity for the school (need not mention their students may have been responsible).

Community relations

etc.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146454#Comment_120146454

I hate to say it but we had a very similar problem with a local secondary school here a few years ago.

We raised it with the school's board of management. The school secretary is out of line telling you to raise it directly with the kids (IMHO). If it's part of the school charter then it's up to the the school to enforce. If wearing a school uniform is part of the charter then the school would enforce it, they wouldn't ask the general public to do it.

This is the route we went down down - got as many neighbours as we could to write to the BOM outlining that it's an ongoing issue. this wasn;t a problem TBH because everyone was stick of the constant littering. Tell the BOM that previous principals have have had students clean up in the past but that is no longer happening (that wasn't even happening in our case, at least you have that going for you). Tell them it has been raised directly with the principal/vice principals etc and the situation hasn't improved. Outline that this is part of the school charter is being broken on a daily basis by the pupils and you would like the BOM to take action before you raise it with your local representatives. It reflects very poorly on the school, it's costing the council money to clean up the litter (I assume) etc.

BOMs can push this with the principal. From the school's side, they should be announcing at assembly that there has been littering complaints and if the complaints continue they will not allow pupils to leave the grounds during lunch. My understanding is that is what happened in our case, the school even sent out the odd teacher for a walk between the shop and school at lunchtime to observe the students iirc.

Dinging

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146587#Comment_120146587

The council litter warden seemed to think that as they were under the age of 18 he had no powers to demand their names or address to issue fines. I did take the litter warden through the area to show the amount of litter last week He was shocked that the school were not willing to engage with me on any level. He put up a do not litter sign and is looking at installing a bin at the entrance of the school.

ohnonotgmail

There is nothing in the Litter Pollution Act 1997 that prevents the litter warden from fining those under the age of 18. they just can't be bothered.

daheff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146721#Comment_120146721

I would presume that the litter warden is wary of trying to get personal information of minors. In this day and age all sorts gets bandied about.

Dinging

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146622#Comment_120146622

I have purchased (cost me 100 euro) and installed a bin myself, in the laneway beside my home. I regularly empty the bin, about every 2 weeks, litter pick the area, I then have to email the council and they will collect the rubbish. I also have to organise bags as they only will collect rubbish in council approved blue bags. Feels like I am letting the council off to be honest.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144656#Comment_120144656

You didn't quote them either, in fairness.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146741#Comment_120146741

The litter warden told the OP that they cannot fine under 18s. This is a copout. they just dont want the hassle.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146412#Comment_120146412

Social media, muddy the name of the school till something is done about it.

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146521#Comment_120146521

Jesus wept

Alex86Eire

I worked in a school where there was a similar issue. The students were banned from leaving the school at lunchtime for two weeks at a time if rubbish appeared.

I'm really surprised the school aren't engaging with you.

You could always collect up the rubbish and dump it in the reception of the school.

Petty yes, but I doubt they'd keep ignoring the problem if you said you'll be back tomorrow with the next delivery

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146622#Comment_120146622

I'm pretty sure that the school is legally responsible for all children who they have marked into the roll as attending school that day, during hours that the school is open.

If children are unable to behave when outside of the school's direct supervision, then they should not be allowed outside of that supervision during school hours.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120147546#Comment_120147546

The school has a duty of care relating to the safety of the students. It does not bear legal responsibility for their actions. Unusually enough, people bear that responsibility themselves. Provided they are over the age of 12 they also have criminal responsibility meaning they can be fined. DLRCoCo may choose not to fine them as they would find it hard to enforce the fines but I think they should try and get possession of their X boxes, IPhones and PS5s to pay the fines!

Red Hare

In all of the posts above there is no reference to the shops where these students are buying food from which causes the litter material.

Those shops have a responsibility

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180102#Comment_120180102

thats a stretch. unless shops are selling bags of literal rubbish to students then they dont really have anything to do with this.

it firstly is the responsibility of the students but failing that the school is responsible in lieu of their parents as its during school time.

having said that i could never understand the fascination of being a little sh1t and littering. about 10ish years out of school but i think i'll always remember the state of the lunch room floors after everyone went back to class, guys would just drop their rubbish/uneaten food onto the floor even if they were next to a bin

dartboardio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144656#Comment_120144656

not legally obliged, but any decent school would punish them somehow. In my secondary school if you were seen/caught or if anyone reported you littering or behaving badly at lunch time or ANY time while wearing your school uniform, you would be given an appropriate punishment, detention, extra homework, 'black points' on your report card etc...

Dinging

Update.

The new school term has started and so the litter has returned.

I had visited the school twice back in February on consecutive days. The first time with a couple of handfuls of litter just dropped by boys wearing the school uniform. On my way into the school, I met 3 boys with litter pickers, they had a single coffee cup and joked with me that they were sent out to pick up litter but with no bags, they couldn’t pick up anything and they weren’t really bothered. The following day I returned with more rubbish and some bags. I explained to the secretary what the bags were for. The response from the school, they called the Guards who arrived at my address and I was being accused of harassment by the school. The Guards to be fair were sounds and said that in their opinion the school authorities has some culpability of this littering as they were facilitating this.

Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council is more than useless. I had always been skeptical of the criticism of local authorities but their litter department response to this has been a total waste of time. They said that they will monitor the littering and that is all they are prepared to do.

I have engaged with my local council representative who has contacted the principal of the school in question and again I have been fobbed off with the school is taking many measures to address this issue. Nothing has changed, the area is littered and there are no litter picks or clean-ups happening. I have today asked the local rep to go back to the school asking them if could they direct the boys not to traverse through our area and use the more direct routes available to them. This feels like a good compromise.

The guards say this is a civil matter, nothing to do with them.

We are probably going to collect 40 bags of rubbish this year from a small green area, 3 laneways, in an area of about 30 houses.

So I plan to go the direct route. I will use social media, I also plan on protesting outside the school during their open day. I will also be writing to the board of management and planning to get the local press involved. 

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121085939#Comment_121085939

My advice remains the same, collect up the rubbish and dump it in reception.

If they have any issues with it, say the kids dropped something and you're just returning it.

My guess is you won't need to do it more than twice before it resolves itself

Get Real

I know you've gone through the motions already op and similar has been suggested months ago. Now that the new term has begun, I'd email DLR again, and include this link in your email https://www.dlrcoco.ie/litter-control-cleansing/litter-warden

Perhaps let them know that you understand the wardens have littering issues elsewhere. I'd CC my local TD and maybe enquire generally on how many fines have been issued in the last 6 months in the area, maybe hinting at considering a freedom of information request.

In addition, enquire if a warden could visit the school to give a talk, again cc'ing all this with your local TD.

I know fines can't be issued to children but enquire generally and maybe throw in an enquiry regarding the separate issue then of street cleaning in such a problem area.

Surely it must be relevant to the council that provides a webpage on the issue and your queries might light a fire somewhere and put a bit of focus on it, even if temporarily.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180352#Comment_120180352

The irony is this is the generation who are "striking" on environmental issues and lecturing us all about the state of the planet is in after us. They're just as bad.

Goldengirl

Think this is very much an attitude from the top down by the response you have received.

Outrageous that they called the guards, but you must remember to stay calm and polite no matter, but at least the guards were sensible.

They may not be if called again though.

I would ask your local representative to call a meeting and get as many neighbours as possible. Invite the school principal and BoM but they may not attend. The local litter warden should be notified also. Also local food outlets.

Report back in writing everything. Keep a paper trail.

Give some time for it to sink in..

No action..

Time to name and shame the school not only on social media but maybe you could organise some like minded neighbours and get the local paper and a local representative out, pictures of all of you collecting loads of rubbish.

Make sure they know all the very decent lengths you have gone to with the school and the council about this and been left picking it up yourself.

If its from particular supermarkets, packaging, or takeaway bags eg McDonalds or Pizza boxes, and those outlets might help clamp down on schoolkids. Our local supermarket banned the school nearby at lunchtime due to complaints about litter.

Complain again in writing as directed by get real above to the council, and to the BOM.

Finally don't put the rubbish in a bag pn the schoolgrounds... They are your bags, just put the rubbish.. loose... on the doorstep, and let the school secretary know, very politely and calmly, that you have " returned property that was left by the boys as they walked through your estate for the lost and found"!

If you and others do this on a few occasions, things will improve. Or maybe they will report you!

Either way keep a record and make sure that it is not just you doing it, but as many neighbours as you can, to take turns.

Its a battle , if you have the energy.

However every school year it will repeat to some extent unfortunately. Should just require a quick polite call ti the pricipal and reminder to say something to the lads at assembly.

Don't ever approach the kids, but no harm if they see ye out collecting. Most.. Not all... of them would not do this at home or if with their parents so would be a bit embarassed. And they may think again before dropping stuff.

Its just the laissez faire culture in the school and a few bad eggs triggering this problem.

rock22

For whatever reason, the relationship between you, OP, and the school is now strained. I think you will now get nowhere.

I think you have two options. One is to continue to pressurise the local authority and litter warden to take action. That might mean writing to Councillors if you get nowhere writing to officials.

The second, is to get together with your neighbours. You have already mentioned some neighbours who are also exercised by this. Correspondence to the school from a neighbourhood group will likely get a better response than from an individual. And likewise, from the local authority.

Do not return litter to the school reception. It won't solve the problem , is illegal, and will likely get you into more trouble with the guards.

Claw Hammer

Who is the patron of the school? There is no point in talking to secretaries. You need to find out who the patron is and bring it to their attention. The school is obviously run by a pig, so you will only get a grunt.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121091750#Comment_121091750

Its not "illegal", its a form of protest.

Peregrinus

Just because something is a "form of protest" does not mean that it is legal.