So make me welcome.......

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155239#Comment_120155239

Once the PIRA stopped killing people, it became legitimate to vote for Sinn Fein.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155248#Comment_120155248

Exactly. In the seventies etc, when the PIRA campaign was at its height, Sinn Fein has very little support on the island - no TDs or MPs then as far as I remember.

The poor misguided ladies om the Irish national soccer team were probably under the impression the PIRA had widespread support in its campaign - it did not. They were caught and jailed by the forces of law and order on both sides of the border.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155248#Comment_120155248

SF were being voted for long before the end of the conflict war. In fact, if you look at the stats, they began to get votes as soon as they committed to the ballot box.

The idea that former SDLP voters suddenly switched and trusted SF is not really believable. Look at the facts not the myths.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155287#Comment_120155287

And you still haven't factored in that SF electoral workers/candidates were censored, shot at and killed by Loyalists and the British Army and had no electoral machine worth talking about.

But never let the facts get in the way etc etc.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155311#Comment_120155311

In the second half of the 20th century - fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties - SF were not even the biggest Nationalist party. Sure, they got some votes, but most people condemned the terrorists and did not vote for their supporters. People wanted peace, as someone else said, not a terrorist campaign, which failed in its objective anyway.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155351#Comment_120155351

That is exactly the point I was making.

Sinn Fein had no votes when they were actively supporting and helping terrorists.

Once the PIRA stopped killing and terrorising people and SF claimed to stop actively helping them, then SF votes grew.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155374#Comment_120155374

Sinn Fein had no votes 

This is just factually wrong.

1997...before GFA agreement and before decommissioning and the standing down of the IRA.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155423#Comment_120155423

That was when the PIRA campaign had run out of steam, just before their complete collapse, and fully backs up what I am saying.

They were up 6% on the back of the moves towards peace.

Nitpicking and parsing posts for some kind of gotcha moment doesn't take away from the central thesis that SF support was negligible until the PIRA stopped killing and terrorising people.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155374#Comment_120155374

When Sin Fein had a parliament they were not going to abstain on was the turning point.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155438#Comment_120155438

You stated 'Sinn Fein had no votes when they were actively supporting and helping terrorists.' = factually wrong. They recieved over 16% of the vote at a time when the IRA were still active.

Absolute dis-ingenuous debating from you again when the facts are there in front of anyone who cares to look honestly at it. All I can do here is keep posting facts, not myths.

The leadup to the general election on the 1st May 1997:

CAIN Web Service

A Chronology of the Conflict - 1997

1997

January 1997

Wednesday 1 January 1997

 Two bombs, estimated at 500 lbs of explosive, were left in the grounds of Belfast Castle. The bombs were safely defused. [No group claimed responsibility but it was believed to be the work of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) (?).]

Thursday 2 January 1997

 There was a report in the Irish Times which indicated that the Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF) were considering ending their ceasefire officially if the Irish Republican Army (IRA) continued to carry out attacks. [The Ulster Democratic Party (UDP) denied that there was any truth in the report.]

Sunday 5 January 1997

 A bomb, estimated at 250 lbs, was left near Cullyhanna, County Armagh. The device was defused by the British Army. [It was believed to have been planted by the IRA.] 

 'Punishment' beatings were carried out on two men in north Belfast, and there were three 'punishment' shootings in Portadown.

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out a 'rocket' attack at the Royal Courts of Justice in Belfast injuring a Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officer in the leg. 

 A man was shot in the leg in a 'punishment' attack in West Belfast. [It was claimed by some people that this shooting was carried out by the Official IRA.]

Tuesday 7 January 1997

 Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officers travelling in two Landrovers in the Shantallow area of Derry escaped injury when a bomb was thrown at their vehicles. 

 There was disruption in Belfast caused by three bomb alerts.

Friday 10 January 1997

 There was a series of 20 bomb alerts throughout Belfast leading to major disruption.

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out a mortar-bomb attack on an unmanned Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) station in Fermanagh.

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out a 'rocket' attack on a Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) Landrover patrol in Kennedy Way, west Belfast. There were no injuries in the attack.

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) fired two 'horizontal type mortars' at a Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) Landrover patrol in Downpatrick, County Down. There were no injuries. An attempted mortar attack in Derry was foiled by the security forces in Derry.Monday 20 January 1997

 There was an attack on the Mountpottinger Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) station in Short Strand, Belfast. Two 'coffee jar bombs' were thrown at the station but there were no injuries. [The attack was believed to have been carried out by the Irish Republican Army (IRA) (?).]

Saturday 25 January 1997

 A bomb exploded under a car at Ballynahinch, County Down. The car belonged to three off-duty British soldiers who were visiting a disco in the town. None of the soldiers were seriously injured in the incident.

Monday 27 January 1997

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out a 'rocket' attack on a Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) Landrover patrol in Toomebridge, County Antrim. There were no injuries. [Date ?]

Tuesday 28 January 1997

 A Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) Landrover patrol was attacked on the Springfield Road, Belfast. Two 'rockets' were fired at the patrol but there were no injuries. [It was believed that the Irish Republican Army (IRA) was responsible for the attack (?).]

 Michael Mansfield, then a Queen's Council, claimed that the escape by IRA prisoners from Whitemoor Prison in England on (day?) March 1995 was assisted by British Intelligence involvement in an attempt to "scupper" the then IRA ceasefire.

Thursday 30 January 1997

February 1997

Monday 10 February 1997

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) left a large bomb on the outskirts of Strabane, County Tyrone. The bomb was defused by the British Army. Ed Turner, then Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) mayor of Strabane, said that in light of the attempted bombing he would not be recommending anyone to invest in the town. His statement drew criticism from Nationalists.

 Gerry Adams, then President of Sinn Féin (SF), sent a fax to John Major, then British Prime Minister, requesting talks between SF and the British government.

Wednesday 12 February 1997

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) shot dead Stephen Restorick, then a British soldier, at an Army checkpoint in Bessbrook, County Armagh. [This killing was often refered to as the last British soldier killed in Northern Ireland, until 7 March 2009 when two soldiers were killed by the Real IRA in County Antrim.]

Saturday 22 February 1997

 An Irish Republican Army (IRA) mortar was found by the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) near Caledon, County Armagh, following a car chase during which the driver escaped.

 Gerry Adams, then President of Sinn Féin (SF), stated in an article in the Irish Times that any new ceasefire by the Irish Republican Army (IRA) would be "genuinely unequivocal".

Wednesday 26 February 1997

 Two members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out a 'punishment' style attack on a 16 year old girl, Judith Boylan, in Armagh.

 A survey in the Irish News reported that 62 (?) per cent of respondents favoured compromise on the issue of contentious parades.

March 1997

Sunday 2 March 1997

 An Irish Republican Army (IRA) mortar was discovered close to Warrenpoint, County Down.

Friday 7 March 1997

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) left a bomb near Dungannon, County Tyrone. The bomb was defused by the British Army.

 Billy Wright, then a leading Loyalist figure from Portadown, was sentenced to seven years for threatening a witness. At the same trial Dale Weathered and Trevor Buchanan were sentenced to seven and eight years respectively for their part in a paramilitary 'punishment' attack.

 The security status of Roisín McAliskey, then being held in prison awaiting a decision about extradition, was reduced from High Risk Category A to Standard Risk Category A. This had the affect of ending regular strip searches of McAliskey who was then seven months pregnant.

Thursday 13 March 1997

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out a bomb attack in the Short Strand area of east Belfast and injured a British soldier and a Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officer.

Tuesday 18 March 1997

 Derrylin, County Fermanagh, was sealed off for a time following an Irish Republican Army (IRA) warning that a bomb had been left in the village.

Thursday 20 March 1997

Monday 24 March 1997

 In the Maze Prison a tunnel was discovered leading from H-Block 7 which housed Irish Republican Army (IRA) prisoners. The lapse of security drew criticism from many quarters.

Wednesday 26 March 1997

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) planted two bombs at Windslow Railway Station in the north-west of England. The bombs caused widespread disruption to the rail network.

 The IRA also issued its annual Easter statement in which it confirmed its continuing objective of ending British rule, but added the IRA's "willingness to facilitate ... inclusive negotiations".

Saturday 29 March 1997

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) left a large bomb, estimated at 1,000 lbs, close to a British Army base at Ballykinlar, County Down. The bomb was defused by the army.

 An Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officer was shot in the leg at Forkhill, County Armagh.

 Republican paramilitaries carried out two separate 'punishment' attacks in west Belfast. In one of the attacks a man was shot in the leg, in the other a teenager was beaten.

 An IRA underground firing range was discovered in the Republic of Ireland near Scotstown, County Monaghan.

 Marjorie (Mo) Mowlam, then Labour Party spokesperson on Northern Ireland, said in a radio interview that an IRA ceasefire could allow Sinn Féin (SF) to enter the multi-party Stormont talks on 3 June 1997.

Thursday 3 April 1997

 There was widespread disruption on the motorways of England when the Irish Republican Army (IRA) warned of bombs on the M1, M5 and M6. Two small bombs were subsequently found by the police. The Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) intercepted a suspicious package that had been addressed to Kevin McQuillan, then leader of the Irish Republican Socialist Party (IRSP).

Saturday 5 April 1997

'Grand National' Cancelled

 The 'Grand National' horse race at Aintree in Liverpool had to be abandoned following a hoax warning that the Irish Republican Army (IRA) had planted a bomb at the race course. [In terms of public interest the Grand National is the premier event in the horse racing calendar. There was widespread anger that the race had to be cancelled. Jack Straw, then Labour Party shadow Home Secretary, said that the IRA had "put themselves beyond the pale". This incident was one of a number in which the IRA demonstrated its ability to disrupt the ordinary life of people in Britain at minimum effort and risk on the part of IRA members.]

 Alice Collins, an Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officer, was shot and seriously wounded while she was on guard duty outside the Courthouse in the centre of Derry. The Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out the attack.

Monday 14 April 1997

The Irish Republican Army (IRA) was believed to be responsible for a 'punishment' beating attack on a man in Derry. The man subsequently went into hiding.

Friday 18 April 1997

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) planted two bombs and issued a number of other hoax bomb warnings across a number of motorways and railways in England. The bombs and alerts resulted in large-scale disruption.

Monday 21 April 1997

 The Irish Republican Army (IRA) issued a series of hoax bomb warnings in central London which caused widespread disruption. A group of men claiming to be members of the Irish People's Liberation Organisation (IPLO) carried out a robbery on the office of a Credit Union in Newry.

*All other events that year removed to focus on the activity of the IRA in NI and Britain. Boards would not allow me to post all the years events as too many bytes. You can see them here: CAIN: Chronology of the Conflict 1997 (ulster.ac.uk)

It should also be noted that in April that year, in the lead up to the election this was stated as a result of the IRA's ongoing campaign:

 John Bruton, then Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister), called on Nationalists in Northern Ireland not to vote for Sinn Féin (SF) in the forthcoming general election. Bruton said that a vote for SF would be a "vote for murder".

Francis McM

Only 16% of the vote, and that was north of the border. Here in the Republic SF had much less support even in that era, which was higher support than in the seventies which is when the PIRA campaign was at its height. As said before, the poor misguided ladies om the Irish national soccer team were probably under the impression the PIRA had widespread support in its campaign - it did not. They were caught and jailed by the forces of law and order on both sides of the border.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155726#Comment_120155726

16% more than 'no vote' which equals 0% of the vote.

Seth Brundle

Mod: Ok folks, back on topic or I'm going to close this. Every thread about NI doesn't need to be a debate about SF

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155849#Comment_120155849

Correct, and the average SF vote during the fifties, sixties, 70s,80's and nineties was much closer to 0% than to 16%, both north and south of the border. Tell that to the the "youngsters" - people not alive in that era - today (like the ladies national soccer team) chanting UP the RA and they may be surprised the RA had so little support.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156039#Comment_120156039

In the context of 'welcoming' Unionism, all sides will have to accept that there are two versions of history here. Or rather; two versions of how history affected each other. There are still differing versions of the history of our own 'independence' struggles but we don't allow that to pull the state apart.

What will be required (and is also required if there is a UI or not) is an acceptance of fault and respectful rememberance and commemoration. Singing Up The RA doesn't fit in with that nor does a two month festival celebrating hate and triumphalism etc.

Francis McM

Easter never lasted two months?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156276#Comment_120156276

What?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156419#Comment_120156419

Don't see what the RA has to do with any festival celebrating hate and triumphalism, maybe you mean them shooting at gravesides or celebrating Easter Sunday or something? The UVF or UDA are not chanted about by a whole national soccer team and pitches are not named after them, afaik. So do not know where you are getting your celebration of hate or triumphalism from.

Dslatt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156654#Comment_120156654

Why should places not be named after the people who won Ireland its independance? Its common everywhere. You cannot compare republican commemrations of the easter rising to that insane craic that the Unionists do every July

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156654#Comment_120156654

I was referencing the two month marching/bonfire season(July and August and the frequent celebrations of UDR/UDA/UVF killers, the most recent (last weekend)one attended by the DUP.

But I suspect you know this and just wanted to avoid the point which again was:

In the context of 'welcoming' Unionism, all sides will have to accept that there are two versions of history here. Or rather; two versions of how history affected each other. There are still differing versions of the history of our own 'independence' struggles but we don't allow that to pull the state apart.

What will be required (and is also required if there is a UI or not) is an acceptance of fault and respectful rememberance and commemoration. Singing Up The RA doesn't fit in with that nor does a two month festival celebrating hate and triumphalism etc.

Francis McM

I always thought the 12th of July was to commemorate the "Glorious Revolution" as they call it, or Revolution of 1688, that granted Protestant groups freedom of worship when King William and Queen Mary, James II's daughter, seized the British throne of the Catholic king. I did not know it was to celebrate UDA/UVF killers. I doubt very much if it does.There will certainly never be a UI if all the people who attend a 12th of July parade also support UDA/UVF.

Dslatt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156750#Comment_120156750

Funny way to celebrate a "Glorious Revolution" from 350 years ago by burning effigies of catholics

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156750#Comment_120156750

Completely dis-ingenuous posting now. There was an 'and' in there

'and the frequent celebrations of UDR/UDA/UVF killers, the most recent (last weekend)one attended by the DUP.'

And if you want to pretend that the 12th is all about some benign festival, work away. It iosn't, hence the Parades Commission and the hideous hate and bigotry on display around bonfires.

The point again:

In the context of 'welcoming' Unionism, all sides will have to accept that there are two versions of history here. Or rather; two versions of how history affected each other. There are still differing versions of the history of our own 'independence' struggles but we don't allow that to pull the state apart.

What will be required (and is also required if there is a UI or not) is an acceptance of fault and respectful rememberance and commemoration. Singing Up The RA doesn't fit in with that nor does a two month festival celebrating hate and triumphalism etc.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156761#Comment_120156761

That has never happened at a July the 12th parade as far as I know? So you cannot tar all the people who watch the parades / take part with that brush. Nor, to put the boot on the other foot, did a national soccer team burn an effigy or chant "Up the UVF" ?

Dslatt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156908#Comment_120156908

so there are not massive bonfires on the 12th with effigies of catholics burnt on them? I need to get my eyes checked I guess

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156908#Comment_120156908

Do you know why the Parades Commission came into being?

I didn't tar all the people, I have zero issue with respectful celebration/commemoration.

What happened and still happens around the 12th (bonfire nights included) is orders of magnitude worse than some young girls singing a song about something they have no idea of.

But both of them need to stop and they only will if this happens:

In the context of 'welcoming' Unionism, all sides will have to accept that there are two versions of history here. Or rather; two versions of how history affected each other. There are still differing versions of the history of our own 'independence' struggles but we don't allow that to pull the state apart.

What will be required (and is also required if there is a UI or not) is an acceptance of fault and respectful rememberance and commemoration. Singing Up The RA doesn't fit in with that nor does a two month festival celebrating hate and triumphalism etc.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156923#Comment_120156923

I doubt there was ever any bonfire at a 12th of July parade as far as I know. Maybe you are confused at what happens at the odd night time bonfire?

Dslatt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156978#Comment_120156978

Christ, go do one lad.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156750#Comment_120156750

The same argument could be made that because Irish people wave tricolours on St. Patrick's Day that they are celebrating the "martyrdom" of the good republicans who got buried with tricolours on their coffins. All people are trying to do is use the excuse of a few extremists on the margins to have a go at the whole unionist population.

Just like a tiny tiny minority of nationalists supported the atrocities of the PIRA, only a tiny tiny minority of unionists would be involved in something like burning effigies of Catholics. The vast vast majority want to celebrate their traditions in peace without being harrassed by the cultural police.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120157001#Comment_120157001

And in order for them to be welcomed into a new Ireland that behaviour needs to stop however many are involved. Just as singing provocatively about the IRA and our own struggle for freedom must stop.

We need people to be allowed to respectfully commemorate and remember and celebrate parts of their culture we might find objectionable or them us.