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Do power cuts affect day/night meter timers?

  • 15-01-2023 10:03pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭Sysmod


    We have a day/night meter with two rotating wheels. I can see the night one turns before 8am.

    But how does it keep time? We had a 4 hour power cut during a storm. Why does the meter not restart 4 hours our of sync?



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Is there a time clock with spring reserve in the cabinet, Sangamo I think

    Switches the old type meter from day to night if I'm remembering correctly

    The newer units would be using battery reserve



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭Sysmod


    A spring reserve? How quaint -but yet how independent of power! The meter must be about 40 years old, no make that I can see, just ESB Manufactured in Ireland.

    Thanks, kirk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Newer units have a device called an RTC (real time clock) with a tiny battery and it's set at the point of manufacturing and typically remains accurate for years as long as the temperature is stable. They can be wrong - my D/N meter is 7 mins slow, but it's not enough to worry about as I just configured the car to start charging at 23:15 instead.





  • The old day/night clocks hadn't changed much since the dawn of electricity.

    It's important to check those clocks are actually on the correct time though. They can go out of sync and you can end up with some odd billing, especially if you've storage heating.

    I'm not sure if the meter readers who called were supposed to check that the time was accurate on them and report a fault if it wasn't but it's still just generally advisable to check them maybe twice a year just to make sure they're correct. They always run on GMT as far as I know without any summer time adjustment btw.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    I'd say the smart meters have the time synced by radio time beacons.

    I said this before but one of the problems with smart meters is that there will never be anyone from ESB networks checking the meters in person so any unauthorised interference with meters will be far more common now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Are they not supposed to be visually checked at least once a year by a reader?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    Are they supposed to be?

    Does that actually happen in real life - does it actually progress beyond some bullet point list in a code of practice?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,889 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    In fact locating compliance will be much easier as they have installed a raft of smart meters on their side of the distribution network all the way down , with clever algorithms continuously aggregating the smart meters downstream of a network meter and checking against the submeters, with adjustments made for number of non smarts on that piece.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Smart meters ya but there was a digital dual tariff meter before smart meters

    I was assuming they were battery backup



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Could you put up a close up picture of the meter wiring and timeclock if there is one

    I can't for the life of me remember the wiring of the sangamos i think and those dual meters unless I'm misremembering the setup



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  • They’ve a lot or anti tamper technology that can pick up common tricks (have seen the spec for both makes / models being installed) and there are probably area meters and so on and I bet they’ll still be read (inspected) where they think there’s an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    The separate nsh meter you could add a socket easily on the night rate

    Think you'd be saving on the night rate without any extra charges like dual tarriff

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    In theory yes, but in reality will ESB networks actually follow through on it or will smart meters be just a "fire and forget" technology that allows them to do away with the hassle and wage bill of the meter readers. They will probably let them retire and not replace them.

    At the end of the day, since energy suppliers are now separate from ESB networks, there is nothing really in it for ESB Networks to expend resources on stamping out meter fiddling. It will be out of the suppliers bottom line, not ESB Networks'.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    That came up on another thread

    Meter fiddling will obviously escalate if smart meters are not checked



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    There's no way they'll be left unchecked . Some rental tennants will be fiddling them

    Post edited by kirk. on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭Sysmod


    Sorry, that link required access request. Here is a public link to a picture of the meter:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,828 ✭✭✭meercat


    There should be a clock nearby

    post a wider picture from further back to include the whole setup including esbn fuse


    that night rate dial is reading very low (unless it has been all the way round)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    I think now they were using the direct switching method back in the day

    Consumer wiring is the same as wiring for a separate nsh meter , 2 sets of tails

    I don't recall much day/night back then mostly nsh metering



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    Are we talk the old Gold Shield style storage heating and water heating here? They were never really a success. You see a lot of defunct remnants of these systems in apartments from the 80s and 90s. Sometimes you'll see what was a gold shield cylinder or storage heater that was taken off of the goldshield system and just wired up direct, or fitted with a standard immersion when the very delicate and temperamental goldshield control system packed in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    This isn't gold shield but ya that's when day/nite really kicked off with the all electric apartments

    Just meant additional off peak loads and storage heating .Panel heaters , bathroom fan heater ,off peak water heating and pumped shower off the cylinder

    Think it was round then the digital meter and the control pair came in , could be mistaken

    Problems started with neozeds and people switching everything on together in holiday homes etc. late at night



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭Sysmod


    Yes 🙂

    Here's the panel. Taken at 21:15, clock pointer looks about right.


    Maybe this isn't the original meter then but a day/night one that was installed when we got storage heaters. I don't see a date on those devices.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Not a Sangamo but similar , would have spring reserve

    Looks like the timer switches storage heating directly and an aux contact on the timer switches the meter between day and nite

    I presume that's how it works on mechanical timeclocks day/nite. I wouldn't really know exactly unless you were fitting them for ESBN , you'd never really see the wiring with covers off



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,828 ✭✭✭meercat


    This has in fact sangamo time clock workings

    your timer is not correctly set

    there’s an arrow time indicator (around the 9-10 o clock position on a conventional clock)

    you should not be able to adjust it

    it should be sealed by esbn

    it looks like someone has already broken the seal on the meter and probably the clock too

    this could be problematic

    check that you also have a main earth link in (I can’t see it from the photo)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    ^ It looks to be there on the top right



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Unusual to see both seals missing

    No reason that should be happening

    If the timings off it's an ESBN problem , they deal with it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    What is the penalty for missing seals? or do they even bother enforcing it? Maybe only in extreme cases of caught-red-handed tampering?

    At home, we had to have the meter replaced a few years back after it nearly went on fire. The ESB man who came out said that he noticed the seal was missing off of the meter, but there was no more about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Dunno would they do much about seals

    Tampering was easier back in the day

    Add a socket off the NSH in the OP , snip the timeclock seal and change the time ,leave the seal back so cut can't be seen

    Chances are it won't be noticed



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