Outdoor Ethernet Run

lenoude

Hey, just looking for potential ideas.

I have a run from the main house down to the back of the garden to a cabin.

Woke up and no internet this morning, this is the 4th time in 3 years this has happened. The problem seems to be the cable.

I've used outdoor Ethernet and it just doesn't seem to be doing the job, or at least doesn't last long. It's put in the ground but there'd be no traffic over it so I'm assuming there's ingress of sorts happening.

Is there anything more heavy duty I can use? Will have to do a new run of it before work starts this afternoon, nightmare

niallb

The cable in the ground is less likely to be the problem than the terminations at the end.

What kind of cable is it? Do you have a link to the actual reel that you bought?

Have you the cable terminated into a wall box on each end or did you just put plugs straight onto the cable itself.

The solid cores shouldn't be moved too much once installed as they can break and it is far more reliable to run them to a box and take a flexible patch cable from there.

niallb

Actually just to check - did you bury the cable or just run it along the ground?

The Continental Op

So what happened to previous cables OP? I've had standard ethernet cat 5 cable buried outside for years with no problems.

smuggler.ie

I would echo "not necessary cable issue", but for the fourth time, would you lay the duct? For a single run even 1/2 qual-pex water pipe would do, 3/4 should accommodate 2 runs - up to 50m length , no joints

lenoude

I just terminated at both ends with plugs, goes straight into the router in the cabin. There wouldn't be much if any movement of the plugs really at all. I put connections where it runs through the garage from the house where I could isolate where the problem may be. The run from the house to the shed is working, it's the run from the garage to the cabin that seems to have failed.

I bought it in an electrical wholesalers. To be honest it just seemed the exterior was a bit tougher than standard, but thought it should suffice. Definitely outdoor though.

I have it buried for a bit of a run, but really by only by about an inch, it's covered with stone and runs against the back of a kerb. Again, no real traffic going over it that would or should cause issues

smuggler.ie

Just in case, when you say "router" in the cabin - it is not configuration issue there, right ? Or do you have two(more) DHCP servers runing ?

niallb

How have you joined it in the garage?

niallb

If you need to get something working for this afternoon, the first thing I'd do is snip the plugs off and replace them.

Do you have a cable testing device of any sort? It'll tell you if there's any crossed wires or single broken conductor.

Maybe spell out what you have done since it stopped working.

I'm assuming it was working fine for you until yesterday or so.

Was the joined connection in the garage already there or did you introduce it as part of trying to find out how far down the cable the problem was?

lenoude

Yeah I have one of those devices to check the line so will throw that on.

The router really is just a simple AP.

Its been working rock solid for 6 months and then nothing. Very annoying

I split the cable into 2 sections. The run from the main router to the garage, then from garage to the cabin.

This was done with a joiner, a simple enough device, just plug on both ends of cable and plug both of them in.

The Continental Op

I hate joiners will never ever use them. However whenever I've tried to prove they cause problems I've failed :-(

If it was me I'd have a small switch in the garage instead of the joiner.

lenoude

So I checked with an tool and the sequence was fine. I removed the joiner and put in a spare AP just to see if it would give a connection but no. Still nothing

zg3409

I would buy a 50m or 100m pre terminated "indoor" cable and run it above ground until you get problem sorted. As said it's usually connections at the end but these cables don't like to be bent nor hit with shovels or stones.

niallb

Thanks for the feedback - needs a bit more specific detail to be sure of what you're saying.

You say you used the tool and the sequence was correct, but it would help to be more complete in your description.

You can probably solve this with what you have.

Does that mean you used the cable tested on the cable from the house to the garage and it checked correctly.

Does it mean that you also checked the cable running from the garage to the shed and that checked out too?

There are a hundred different things that could be classed as joiners. Very few are worthwhile.

If you got one in a hardware shop that is light brown plastic like a phone extender it'll rarely work.

Spare AP? What model? If it has multiple sockets did any lights come on?

By not work do you mean it didn't give you an internet connection, but perhaps the computer or the router in the cabin detected a "link" up.

I'd also replace your joiner with a simple 20 quid switch, but you're not going to get that or a 100' cable delivered before this afternoon!

Can you post a picture or two of the parts around where you join it?

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102574#Comment_120102574

Have we ruled out smugler.ie's question about DHCP?

Your AP is just as likely to have a built in DHCP server as your router. I only mention this as it caught me out last weekend. I used an old wireless router as a 4 port switch and forgot about the built in DHCP server until someone couldn't play Fortnite.

Tenshot

If your cable is testing okay with a basic tester, have you tried connecting a known-good switch at both ends, just in case your access point is blown (or the network port in the main house feeding the cable)? You said you'd tried a spare access point in the garage without success. Maybe bring it back to the main house and connect it directly to the network port feeding the garden cable, and confirm that port is still okay?

My two brothers live next door to each other and have CAT5 running between the two houses and a small studio. During the storms a couple of months ago, something took out all the equipment connected to inter-building cables (four devices in total). The cables themselves were fine, three out of the four pieces of equipment looked like they were alive (power lights etc) but the Ethernet ports were dead. I replaced the failed access points & switches, and everything is fine once more, nothing wrong with the cables themselves.

(The same storm took out all the equipment feeding external PoE runs for CCTV on another friend's business.)

You can avoid this sort of thing by running fibre between the buildings and using fibre-to-copper converters at each end. This keeps each building electrically isolated from the others. It's more hassle and more expensive though.

smuggler.ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102719#Comment_120102719

once checking - checking both DHCPv4 and DHCPv6

niallb

What did you do the last three times this failed on you?

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102574#Comment_120102574

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102719#Comment_120102719

DHCP won't come into it if there's no Ethernet link, is this what you mean by no connection OP? Are there link lights on the equipment at either end?

smuggler.ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120103567#Comment_120103567

You quite right, but OP wasn't specific, first stating "no internet", then vaguely saying no connection(which could mean either) and ignored @niallb questions

10-10-20

Assuming it's an electrical issue, then I'd guess it's failing from damp. Those external cables have a thin UV resistant sheathing and it's single-layer and not protective enough for direct burying. It needs to be in a dry trunk/duct or clipped to a wall with no means of flexing in the wind.

lenoude

So I replaced the cable and it's working. It seems the joiner was an issue also so just have an old router there temporarily while I look at getting a switch for it .

The previous 3 times I've simply replaced the run. 2 of those times it was a straight run with no joiners.

Sorry was replying on the go there so mixed up no connection and no internet. There was a connection as the router was picking it up, but no internet connection. Everything at the main eir modem was fine.

I have a feeling it is damp, because it's always something I wake up to, it never seems to lose the connection during the day.

Thanks for all the replies, I'm gonna look at the ducting or the fibre run

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104300#Comment_120104300

LOL, back to the DHCP issue question. If you are now using a router as a switch don't forget to turn DHCP off on it ;-)

smuggler.ie

Yeah, if link was ON all the time, this does not add up, unless some miss-config

lenoude

Yeah, literally doesn't make sense. Like each time the connection is absolutely rock solid. Then it just stops. No deterioration or anything like that. I dunno but look its working , at least for now haha

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104454#Comment_120104454

The link LED operates at the OSI physical layer and can be present even if a cable is compromised by water as the link may establish but just not allow higher frequency transmissions at the data-link layer.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104775#Comment_120104775

What would be telling is: what was the network speed shown as when the computer was in that error state?

smuggler.ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104945#Comment_120104945

I see, perhaps you right... perhaps you not, apologies for not taking your word for it and i will accept i might be wrong, still...

As you state your self - phys. layer OSI - so wires seam OK, rest is is up above. No comment on frequency, but thought it is on physical level alone.

Just out curiosity, i might play (some time) with wires to replicate short(this what damp ingress would cause, wouldn't it). Potentially there is documentation about this somewhere, but this is just the way i am...

As for second part of your comment - there was no internet, what speed can you measure ? Perhaps in case of secondary DHCP, providing two devices on it, transfer speed between them.

Anyway, @lenoude ,ruling out DHCP issue is quite simple - re-check the settings on "AP". As late devices have it , DHCPv6 not to be ignored.

niallb

The speed @10-10-20 was referring to is the negotiated link speed. If there's an established Ethernet connection, the interface will register a speed. Probably 100Mb, hopefully 1000Mbit. It's got nothing to.do with a configured data connection and should be visible on the PC if connected directly. You may be able to tell the speed from the colour of the activity LED if "lights come on" on the AP/Router

smuggler.ie

The "link speed", i see...

Still, unless "AP" would have metric to "main router" (not all do) this would be between "AP" and end device(PC, etc) that is local to cabin, before the wire stretch in question.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104300#Comment_120104300

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104775#Comment_120104775

What exactly does "connection" mean here? It physically felt firm, LEDs were solid or flashing, the router detected and displayed the device at the other end, you could communicate between devices at an IP level (e.g. using ping) or something else?

Type 17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120132781#Comment_120132781

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model

There are 7 layers to a connection, all the way from physical wires to the software within the client device:

You can have a good layer 1 (nothing unplugged, no broken wires), but damp can cause layer 2 to fail.

If layer 2 works, layer 3 can fail (or connect at a very slow rate) because of poor connections, or milder dampness, or electromagnetic interference because of damaged or poor shielding.

Other physical issues can cause higher layers to fail, by make data rates too slow, or introducing enough errors to cause sessions to fail, software to crash etc.

When troubleshooting, work upwards from layer 1, but don't assume that because layer 1 works, that the next few layers are fine too.