Anyone install Ductless MVHR such as EcoVolt Zero1 or Lunos E60?

bemak

70s house. Condensation issues. Am going to try and improve ventilation first by installing additional wall vents (Lunos ALDs). I'm considering supplementing this with either a PIV unit in the attic (with a heating element) or else a Ductless MVHR solution such as the EcoVolt Zero1 or Lunos E60.

I'd be curious to know if anyone has installed the latter and how they're getting on with them - particularly if they were installed into an existing house with standard airtightness.

I like the idea of ductless MVHR but I'm worried that the house mightn't be airtight enough for them hence the PIV option which probably works better in a leaky building.

paddyb

Looking into this as well but struggling to find anything online from people who have actually installed it.

bemak

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091080#Comment_120091080

That's my problem too - they look great in theory but I'd like to hear about some user experience before I decide.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091080#Comment_120091080

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091089#Comment_120091089

Im not sure if you can find it by Boards search (or try Google search) but there was a thread on this before that I was posting in and iirc one other poster had gotten a Lunos system installed and he said he was very happy with it.

Im in the same boat as you two, Im intending to get either a Lunos or Ecovolt later this year when Im doing a renovation. I did look at Lunos a couple of years ago but put it off as other things took precedence and also becasue I was hoping the price of the units would come down or other competitors would enter the market which has now happened with the Ecovolt Zero 1, do either of you know what is the price per unit for those?

When I looked at it around 2020 an Irish supplier quoted me 700 for supply only of a single Lunos unit (I think it was the E2 model) which I thought as expensive for a fan with a ceramic heating unit inside it. I did find the same unit in Germany for 500 euro but never went ahead, probably buying from there would mean no warranty but would probably take that risk.

I think wth these units its important to assess the noise of them vis a vis where you sit in your living room or sleep in a bed. They run at about 60 decibles so if you are several metres away it shouldnt bother you. But if its right beside the sofa you sit on then it could get annoying. They are designed to run 24/7 so the noise factor is important to consider if you live in a smaller house.

bemak

Lunos and EcoVolt are two options - there's also a third, Aspirvelo Air Ecocomfort 2.0 which looks to be a bit better again in terms of usability (app controlled). I actually think it's a nicer looking unit as well compared to the aforementioned.

I've started to look at a PIV system now as well as I think the lack of airtightness in our house might limit the efficiency of a dMVHR unit. The PIV system is fairly straightforward to install too so the risk is a lot lower if it doesn't work out. A friend installed one in his house (70's as well) and he's delighted with it. Fantech have a nice model that has a heating element in the unit itself, as opposed to being on the neck of the duct - which I don't like as it would be buried in the attic insulation. The unit can be mounted on a gable wall in the attic as well.

I've been swaying between a number of options but the PIV is probably the most likely now.

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120103681#Comment_120103681

I've been swaying between a number of options but the PIV is probably the most likely now.

The issue I have with PIV systems is it is based on pumping moisture laden warm air into and through the thermal envelope (essentially pumping water into the building structure). This, in my book, is not a good idea. Much better to extract the moisture laden air through dedicated ducting.

L1011

I have Ambentika ductless in. Looks to be the same idea as the Lunos and EcoVolt there.

Its seems to be working OK but its very hard to compare bills as the weather isn't matching previous years that well; plus we're still mid-refurb so there's holes in the suspended floors and old vent holes in the kitchen etc pissing cold air in when it is cold.

Appears to be controlling the condensation causing the outside wall/bathroom ceiling mould that we've had since getting the windows replaced - my partner will not open windows for ventilation as apparently that's backwards (:old site format rolleyes emoji:).

However, the controls are bloody infuriating and while you can have them wired together or to a central controller; I don't. So each room has its own remote, and some of the nicer functions - such as using it to pull air from the shaded side of the house in hot weather - required going to each room to change the mode.

That cool side in, hot side out kept the house workable indoors during that heatwave this year as it happens. As the airflow isn't changing direction there's no heat recovery in play.

Also, the vent on our bedroom catches the wind a lot bringing some wind noise in; a centralised system would hopefully be placed somewhere more shielded!

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104478#Comment_120104478

That brand seems very reasonable on price, the base model is 309 on this site and then other models with more bells and whistles go up to 400-500.

How have you found them in terms of noise, like if you were 3 metres from it would you hear it whirring away in a silent room?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104567#Comment_120104567

At the night speed level, no. At the normal power levels you will hear something but only notch 3 is annoyingly noisy

Both of us are ok with sleeping with that type of noise so leave them on 1.

It has a light sensor so you can have it drop to night mode when it's dark, it also has humidistats to have it run only when needed. However the front inlet closes when it powers off fully and that will wake you up!

I don't have a base model yet they're still not interconnected. I don't think the place we got them from was very good, they couldn't really install either unless you had the perfect preformed vents

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104604#Comment_120104604

Thanks. I think I need to go to a showroom where they sell them and hear them for myself. I dont mind a quiet background hum of air but just dont want to end up being annoyed by it especially as they are supposed to be switched on 24/7.

I know you said your renovation isnt fully sealed yet but have you noticed any increase in the air quality inside your home given the air is now getting changed constantly? Im hoping installing one makes the house always smell fresh regardless of what cooking or other stuff has been going on.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104688#Comment_120104688

Its still too dusty to tell yet unfortunately!

I also don't have one in the kitchen, yet anyway, only the upstairs rooms. Kitchen is getting a jet engine of a hood installed when its getting done.

Muahahaha

ok right. What kind of a cooker hood are you going with. When I did mine I over specced it for the cubic metres of space in the room but with the filters on it it is still not satisfactory at getting rid of smokey wok cooking quickly. Its frustrating because at the outside vent on the external wall you can hear and feel a huge whoosh of air being sucked out but at the unit itself the filters seem to slow down how fast it can extract the smoke.It still does extract it, just not as fast as I would like and Ive often have to leave it switched on for 15 minutes while Im eating my dinner.

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120105096#Comment_120105096

Do you crack open a window close to the hood when extracting?

bemak

I had this problem and the manufacturer stated that the carbon filters shouldn't be fitted when extracting via a wall vent.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104456#Comment_120104456

Mick, not to be argumentative but just inquisitive - after reading about these devices here in early Jan I have been thinking about and doing some measurements around that over the last number of weeks, and I'm not so sure that they are all that bad.

I have a 4 bed, detached house with a attic converted for storage with foil on all plasterboard under the attic space. Attic floor is insulated with glasswool between 150mm in spots to 300mm in others. The RH in the attic has always - as far as I can tell - swung with the ambient external humidity levels and does not appear to be leaking much vapour from the conditioned envelope. Ventilation in the attic from soffit vents is only just sufficient. I popped a numbers of RH meters (uncalibrated, I'll admit) into my attic, kitchen, hall and bedroom. I then used a formula (the longer & more precise formula) to calculate the absolute humidity in g/m^3 and plot these on a graph to show which location has the most water per cubic meter.

Surprisingly over the course of the last 16 days - and even for days when the outside air was 100% saturated - the attic space had the least g/m^3 at an average of around 6.6g/m^3, while the kitchen was averaging around 10.8 with large swings during cooking periods naturally. At no point was the absolute humidity in the attic greater than that of any of the measured rooms. The attic had an average temperature of ~11.6 C but had variation between 14.7 C and 10.0 C over that duration.

(sorry for the noise on the Sonoff/kitchen, sensor issues).

PIR3 (purple) is the attic. PIR1 is the hall. PIR2 is a back-hall (clothes dryer, etc), ShellyHT is a bedroom and Sonoff is the kitchen.

My takeaway from this is that in my house type the attic could be a supply of warmer and dryer air for the majority of the winter time, especially if a heater is fitted to the PIV unit which would only be increasing the temperature of the incoming air by around 7 degrees, as opposed to ~15 degrees if the air was taken externally. It will also help to draw additional air into the attic, consequently reducing the ambient temperature (and the knock-on effects of that), but also drying the attic air due to the temperature difference.

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, just adding colour to the discussion. 👍️

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120106698#Comment_120106698

@10-10-20, your data shows exactly what i'm talking about and is not surprising in the least. If you had also monitored the absolute humidity of the outside air it would likely be lower than the attic air. I could be wrong but I think you might be conflating relative humidity with absolute humidity.

The point I made previously is that by pumping 'dry' attic or outside air (low absolute humidity) into the house forces warm humid air (i.e. wetter by a factor of up to 4 depending) out of the house through gaps and cracks in the thermal envelope and as this humid air passes through the progressively cooler structure the water vapour will condense into liquid water somewhere in the structure at or close to the dew point temperature (typically somewhere between 13 & 15 degC). This then will make the insulation damp /wet and can also be detrimental to the actual structure depending on the construction technology used.

In the absence of other factors the cooler the air is the lower the absolute humidity will be. This is natural physics. However, for a certain absolute humidity, the warmer the air the lower the relative humidity will be.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120105479#Comment_120105479

no, Id have the window closed while the hood extraction is switched on. Ive gone outside to the vent a couple of times just to check it and there is a big whoosh of air. But at the extraction unit itself you can put your hand close and barely feel any suction, presumably because the filters are slowing it down.

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120109507#Comment_120109507

presumably because the filters are slowing it down

that (maybe remove the filter and check) or there isn't enough air available in the kitchen for the fan. Try using the fan with a nearby window open an inch.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120109559#Comment_120109559

Ive never tried running it without the filters so must do that just to see what its like, obvoiusly not long term or Id end up with duct work going outside caked in cooking grease. I do clean the filters once every 3 months and they pick up a lot of grease on the outsides of them so can only imagine what is like inside them. After wiping down with paper towels I put them through the dishwasher as per instructions but maybe I need to clean them monthly instead as I do cook a lot of smokey stuff like wok cooking, steaks, burgers, etc and the grease from that is likely slowing down the airflow.

Either that or its extraction rating isnt sufficient but Id calculated the space its in as 85m3 and the hood itself is rated to 1000m3 per hour so it should be way over specced for the size of the kitchen. But maybe that rating they give is without the filters on and is just the power of the fan motor?

This the model

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07HGDXRLV/ref%3Dpe_3187911_185740111_TE_item

bemak

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120111703#Comment_120111703

Sorry, slight misunderstanding - I meant the charcoal filters if you have them. I'd leave the mesh filters on to catch the grease like you say. I wash mine every 2 weeks. They don't be long clogging up!

paddyb

Anyone come across any installers for these systems?

Ecovolt will sell directly, Ermen will sell me the ecocomfort but none seem to do any installation.

Muahahaha

This is the spec sheet of the Ecovolt Zero 1 which is priced at 429 per unit from a supplier in Dublin 11

It says it changes 60m3 of air per hour and is recommended for a space of up to 30m3 so it does two air changes per hour. Any thoughts on this, the space I have is about 80m3 and I was only intending on getting one unit rather than two. Does it really matter if it isnt changing all the air twice per hour? Id have thought as long as it is changing most of the air every hour then it doesnt really matter, its not like Im running a pharmaceutical clean room.

In any case I think I'll go ahead and install one later this year when Im doing some internal insulation. 429 seems a decent enough price provided the unit lasts. And I like the idea that it is heating up the incoming air especially over the current situation with a 5 inch passive hole in the wall and heat going out of that in the name of ventilation. Its madness when you think about it, spending money to heat the house and then you have this 5 inch hole sitting there just sucking it out.

bf

These seem a much cheaper option, no idea how good they are though

https://www.bpcventilation.ie/bsk-zephyr-single-room-heat-recovery-unit

Ush1

How would these compare functionally to a ducted system.

Would they be better or worse at cycling the air and also would they be better or worse at retaining heat?

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126975#Comment_120126975

Thanks, 230 euro is a great price so they truly have come down in price compared to a couple of years ago when I got a quote of 700 for a single Lunos unit. I was wary about paying big money without knowing the longevity of the units. I still wonder about that because they are supposed to run 24/7 which is a lot for a motor to do year after year.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128557#Comment_120128557

I cant comment on the performance of one system over the other but my understanding is that these ductless units are aimed at houses that are retrofitting. The ducted versions are moreso for new builds where they have access to walls during construction so ductwork can be run behind the plasterboard. Retrofitting a ducted system to an old house would cost a fortune because sections of walls would have to be removed and holes made in ceilngs, etc to get ductwork to the central ventilation unit located in the attic. A company quoted me before and just laying the ductwork in a retrofit 3 bed semi would cost 2-3k before you pay for the cost of the equipment so it could run to 4-5k all up.

So its not economically viable unless money is no object. If you were building a brand new house you'd go with a ducted system as thats the industry standard for ventilation. If retrofitting then these ductless units provide a ventilation solution that avoids spending a fortune opening up walls to lay ductwork.

As regards functonality of the ductless units as far as I can see they perform the same task of changing the air and heating the new air coming in. My main question is about the longevity of the units, like if it broke down after 5 years and it cost 500 you wouldnt be too impressed.

Ush1

Could you surface mount ducting I wonder? From what I've read the ducted systems are better at moving air.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130030#Comment_120130030

Mount it on what though? You would hardly want exposed ducting running up the walls around the house and through ceilings & floors?

These non ducted units are less than a foot in length with a fan and motor inside them. They would be pretty efficient at moving air, perhaps even more so than a system that has metres of ducting running all around the place with 90 degree turns when it meets an obstacle.

FlipperThePriest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126975#Comment_120126975

I'm considering trying out one of these on a room, great price in comparison to what's out there. If it wasn't a decent enough unit, you'd imagine it probably wouldn't be available on the BPC Ventilation website? If it works out, I would probably kit out the whole bungalow.

Ush1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130507#Comment_120130507

All articles I've read have said that ducted is the better system as its better at moving air throughout a building. That and noise are the main disadvantages of a ductless system.

bf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133437#Comment_120133437

Just to note these seem to be 150mm as opposed to 100mm, so may need to core vent holes to make them fit. Worth measuring before taking a leap!

bemak

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126975#Comment_120126975

These look good alright. You'd imagine it's easy to swap out the fan if there's an issue down the line given how it's in a sleeve that can be removed. thats a nice feature compared to the others

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133447#Comment_120133447

yeah fair point on the noise of a ductless system, it would be noisier as the motor is in the same room you are. The units though are rated to just under 30 decibels at a 3 metre distance so it isnt noisy but you probably would be aware of it. I run an air to air heat pump in the living room which operates at 50 decibels and it never bothers me anyway, like I know when it is running but it doesnt annoy me.

That aside I still dont think it makes sense financially to retrofit a ducted system because it means opening up walls and ceilings & floors, its not a small job compared to fitting a ductless system. It certainly can be done and a company will take your money but it would be at a massive expense compared to installing a ductless system. I had a quote on this before and a ducted system would cost me 3 to 4 times the price of what it would cost me to go with a ductless system, in fact more now as that was based on Lunos system at 500 a unit whereas now that BPC site has units for 230 each.

Ush1

I have also read the ductless system efficiency goes out the window if it's windy out and they are exposed. Cold air blowing forcefully over the heat exchanger.

skininthegame

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133437#Comment_120133437

Has anyone tried out these BSK ZEPHYR SINGLE ROOM HEAT RECOVERY UNIT?

Looks to be a good price, would love some feedback from anyone that's installed them.

jasgrif11

I just purchased two of them. They arrived and I plan to install them next week. Only issue I see is locating a 168-170mm core bit. The wet bit will be messy for me and require a scaffold. I can't locate a dry bit anywhere...yet

TimHorton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640719#Comment_121640719

I have one and its very noisy, Seems to work well though.(Its in an attic office.

TimHorton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641868#Comment_121641868

Yeah , I went to large Tool Hire place and nothing available

jcro

I got one installed in our kitchen because we were always getting mold in a corner of 2 outside walls.We leave it on ,on low all day and night. We put it up to full extraction when cooking and leave it going full tilt until the windows are defogged. It doesn't take long then we put it back to low in-out mode. It works a dream.. We are very happy with its performance. Full tilt is noisy but so is a cooker hood. Low, we dont hear at all .The only gripe is it randomly jumps to full on without any reason. It doesn't seem to switch back so we have to intervene. If it goes " hido" in the middle of the night we have to go and shut it off. Don't know why it does that. Other than that its a great little piece of engineering.

Reg, John

jcro

Im wondering if anybody else has the problem of the Ecovolt Zero1 randomly switching to full extraction speed. No reply from ecovolt ...

Thanks John.

Gotfoodforphil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121644263#Comment_121644263

For future people looking at this forum; we had four BSK Zephy ductless HRV units installed in the house, and they have been excellent. There are four speed modes, and three airflow functions (intake, exhaust, or switching between intake and exhaust every 70 seconds). There's a night time mode for use in the bedroom and they are very quiet when in this mode. In fact, they're so quiet that we use the "low" fan speed in our room, as it's still quiet enough to not bother us.

The app is also quite good, allowing individual control of all the units when at home or away, and allows you to schedule different fan speeds for different times / days.

The units can also be set to "boost" mode for extraction when a specific humidity is reached - for example, the one in our kitchen is set to boost when the humidity gets above 70 %, so no worries when cooking with steam in the space. Very much set it and forget it.

I'd highly recommend them and would be happy to answer Q's on them in future!

bemak

That is great to hear

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122335371#Comment_122335371

Did you get a spec sheet with them with CN compliance etc

Gotfoodforphil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337687#Comment_122337687

I have the box with the documents at home somewhere, but specs and energy certification only. I wouldn't think CN compliance would be an issue, there was no material change to the building as it was replacing existing open / passive vents.

denismc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338993#Comment_122338993

How do you power your units? Did you have install extra wiring or are they connected to a socket somewhere?

Gotfoodforphil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339137#Comment_122339137

Ah; so we took the opportunity to have them installed during a full re-wire of the house. They have their own individual spur to the fusebox, though I'm not sure if this is required.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338993#Comment_122338993

Thanks, I agree but am looking at ventilation in new builds/ and I see your kit at c 300 a units as opposed to

https://shopeu.partel.com/collections/ventilation-with-heat-recovery/products/e2-60-inc-transformer-controller

Gotfoodforphil

I remember looking at the Lunos originally and the cost was the single most reason I’d decided against them. I can tell you from the exploded view that the BSK units are constructed almost identically.
I should have added earlier, you can also pair multiple Zephyrs if you wish when setting up to work together. I preferred to keep them individual and adjust as needed via the app or remote control.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122335371#Comment_122335371

I'm happy to hear this as I've decided on installing a couple in my place, I've an air to air heat pump going in on Monday.

TimHorton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122344951#Comment_122344951

How did this go with the BSK units ? Happy ?

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455594#Comment_122455594

Haven't installed yet, hopefully before winter.

Muahahaha

I'll be installing a ductless heat recovery unit by the end of August. Was just about to order a Lunos this weekend (I forget the model, but it is circa €500) so Im glad I checked the thread as those BSK units are tempting me at around half the price. Also having an app to control it is handy over the Lunos which doesnt have an app AFAIK.

@Gotfoodforphil how would you describe the noise from your BSK model when it is running on a low constant mode? I'll be sitting approx 2.5 metres away from it when Im in the room. Generally the tv or radio is on so shouldnt be an issue but just wondering if you can hear it at that distance if there is silence in the room.