Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact [email protected]

Anyone install Ductless MVHR such as EcoVolt Zero1 or Lunos E60?

  • 10-01-2023 5:24pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭


    70s house. Condensation issues. Am going to try and improve ventilation first by installing additional wall vents (Lunos ALDs). I'm considering supplementing this with either a PIV unit in the attic (with a heating element) or else a Ductless MVHR solution such as the EcoVolt Zero1 or Lunos E60.

    I'd be curious to know if anyone has installed the latter and how they're getting on with them - particularly if they were installed into an existing house with standard airtightness.

    I like the idea of ductless MVHR but I'm worried that the house mightn't be airtight enough for them hence the PIV option which probably works better in a leaky building.



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭paddyb


    Looking into this as well but struggling to find anything online from people who have actually installed it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭bemak


    That's my problem too - they look great in theory but I'd like to hear about some user experience before I decide.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,555 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Im not sure if you can find it by Boards search (or try Google search) but there was a thread on this before that I was posting in and iirc one other poster had gotten a Lunos system installed and he said he was very happy with it.

    Im in the same boat as you two, Im intending to get either a Lunos or Ecovolt later this year when Im doing a renovation. I did look at Lunos a couple of years ago but put it off as other things took precedence and also becasue I was hoping the price of the units would come down or other competitors would enter the market which has now happened with the Ecovolt Zero 1, do either of you know what is the price per unit for those?

    When I looked at it around 2020 an Irish supplier quoted me 700 for supply only of a single Lunos unit (I think it was the E2 model) which I thought as expensive for a fan with a ceramic heating unit inside it. I did find the same unit in Germany for 500 euro but never went ahead, probably buying from there would mean no warranty but would probably take that risk.

    I think wth these units its important to assess the noise of them vis a vis where you sit in your living room or sleep in a bed. They run at about 60 decibles so if you are several metres away it shouldnt bother you. But if its right beside the sofa you sit on then it could get annoying. They are designed to run 24/7 so the noise factor is important to consider if you live in a smaller house.



  • Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭bemak


    Lunos and EcoVolt are two options - there's also a third, Aspirvelo Air Ecocomfort 2.0 which looks to be a bit better again in terms of usability (app controlled). I actually think it's a nicer looking unit as well compared to the aforementioned.

    I've started to look at a PIV system now as well as I think the lack of airtightness in our house might limit the efficiency of a dMVHR unit. The PIV system is fairly straightforward to install too so the risk is a lot lower if it doesn't work out. A friend installed one in his house (70's as well) and he's delighted with it. Fantech have a nice model that has a heating element in the unit itself, as opposed to being on the neck of the duct - which I don't like as it would be buried in the attic insulation. The unit can be mounted on a gable wall in the attic as well.

    I've been swaying between a number of options but the PIV is probably the most likely now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    I've been swaying between a number of options but the PIV is probably the most likely now.

    The issue I have with PIV systems is it is based on pumping moisture laden warm air into and through the thermal envelope (essentially pumping water into the building structure). This, in my book, is not a good idea. Much better to extract the moisture laden air through dedicated ducting.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I have Ambentika ductless in. Looks to be the same idea as the Lunos and EcoVolt there.

    Its seems to be working OK but its very hard to compare bills as the weather isn't matching previous years that well; plus we're still mid-refurb so there's holes in the suspended floors and old vent holes in the kitchen etc pissing cold air in when it is cold.

    Appears to be controlling the condensation causing the outside wall/bathroom ceiling mould that we've had since getting the windows replaced - my partner will not open windows for ventilation as apparently that's backwards (:old site format rolleyes emoji:).

    However, the controls are bloody infuriating and while you can have them wired together or to a central controller; I don't. So each room has its own remote, and some of the nicer functions - such as using it to pull air from the shaded side of the house in hot weather - required going to each room to change the mode.

    That cool side in, hot side out kept the house workable indoors during that heatwave this year as it happens. As the airflow isn't changing direction there's no heat recovery in play.

    Also, the vent on our bedroom catches the wind a lot bringing some wind noise in; a centralised system would hopefully be placed somewhere more shielded!



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,555 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    That brand seems very reasonable on price, the base model is 309 on this site and then other models with more bells and whistles go up to 400-500.

    How have you found them in terms of noise, like if you were 3 metres from it would you hear it whirring away in a silent room?



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    At the night speed level, no. At the normal power levels you will hear something but only notch 3 is annoyingly noisy

    Both of us are ok with sleeping with that type of noise so leave them on 1.

    It has a light sensor so you can have it drop to night mode when it's dark, it also has humidistats to have it run only when needed. However the front inlet closes when it powers off fully and that will wake you up!

    I don't have a base model yet they're still not interconnected. I don't think the place we got them from was very good, they couldn't really install either unless you had the perfect preformed vents



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,555 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Thanks. I think I need to go to a showroom where they sell them and hear them for myself. I dont mind a quiet background hum of air but just dont want to end up being annoyed by it especially as they are supposed to be switched on 24/7.

    I know you said your renovation isnt fully sealed yet but have you noticed any increase in the air quality inside your home given the air is now getting changed constantly? Im hoping installing one makes the house always smell fresh regardless of what cooking or other stuff has been going on.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Its still too dusty to tell yet unfortunately!

    I also don't have one in the kitchen, yet anyway, only the upstairs rooms. Kitchen is getting a jet engine of a hood installed when its getting done.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 19,555 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    ok right. What kind of a cooker hood are you going with. When I did mine I over specced it for the cubic metres of space in the room but with the filters on it it is still not satisfactory at getting rid of smokey wok cooking quickly. Its frustrating because at the outside vent on the external wall you can hear and feel a huge whoosh of air being sucked out but at the unit itself the filters seem to slow down how fast it can extract the smoke.It still does extract it, just not as fast as I would like and Ive often have to leave it switched on for 15 minutes while Im eating my dinner.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    Do you crack open a window close to the hood when extracting?



  • Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭bemak


    I had this problem and the manufacturer stated that the carbon filters shouldn't be fitted when extracting via a wall vent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,273 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Mick, not to be argumentative but just inquisitive - after reading about these devices here in early Jan I have been thinking about and doing some measurements around that over the last number of weeks, and I'm not so sure that they are all that bad.

    I have a 4 bed, detached house with a attic converted for storage with foil on all plasterboard under the attic space. Attic floor is insulated with glasswool between 150mm in spots to 300mm in others. The RH in the attic has always - as far as I can tell - swung with the ambient external humidity levels and does not appear to be leaking much vapour from the conditioned envelope. Ventilation in the attic from soffit vents is only just sufficient. I popped a numbers of RH meters (uncalibrated, I'll admit) into my attic, kitchen, hall and bedroom. I then used a formula (the longer & more precise formula) to calculate the absolute humidity in g/m^3 and plot these on a graph to show which location has the most water per cubic meter.

    Surprisingly over the course of the last 16 days - and even for days when the outside air was 100% saturated - the attic space had the least g/m^3 at an average of around 6.6g/m^3, while the kitchen was averaging around 10.8 with large swings during cooking periods naturally. At no point was the absolute humidity in the attic greater than that of any of the measured rooms. The attic had an average temperature of ~11.6 C but had variation between 14.7 C and 10.0 C over that duration.

    (sorry for the noise on the Sonoff/kitchen, sensor issues).

    PIR3 (purple) is the attic. PIR1 is the hall. PIR2 is a back-hall (clothes dryer, etc), ShellyHT is a bedroom and Sonoff is the kitchen.

    My takeaway from this is that in my house type the attic could be a supply of warmer and dryer air for the majority of the winter time, especially if a heater is fitted to the PIV unit which would only be increasing the temperature of the incoming air by around 7 degrees, as opposed to ~15 degrees if the air was taken externally. It will also help to draw additional air into the attic, consequently reducing the ambient temperature (and the knock-on effects of that), but also drying the attic air due to the temperature difference.

    I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, just adding colour to the discussion. 👍️

    Post edited by 10-10-20 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    @10-10-20, your data shows exactly what i'm talking about and is not surprising in the least. If you had also monitored the absolute humidity of the outside air it would likely be lower than the attic air. I could be wrong but I think you might be conflating relative humidity with absolute humidity.

    The point I made previously is that by pumping 'dry' attic or outside air (low absolute humidity) into the house forces warm humid air (i.e. wetter by a factor of up to 4 depending) out of the house through gaps and cracks in the thermal envelope and as this humid air passes through the progressively cooler structure the water vapour will condense into liquid water somewhere in the structure at or close to the dew point temperature (typically somewhere between 13 & 15 degC). This then will make the insulation damp /wet and can also be detrimental to the actual structure depending on the construction technology used.

    In the absence of other factors the cooler the air is the lower the absolute humidity will be. This is natural physics. However, for a certain absolute humidity, the warmer the air the lower the relative humidity will be.

    Post edited by MicktheMan on


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,555 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    no, Id have the window closed while the hood extraction is switched on. Ive gone outside to the vent a couple of times just to check it and there is a big whoosh of air. But at the extraction unit itself you can put your hand close and barely feel any suction, presumably because the filters are slowing it down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    presumably because the filters are slowing it down

    that (maybe remove the filter and check) or there isn't enough air available in the kitchen for the fan. Try using the fan with a nearby window open an inch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,555 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Ive never tried running it without the filters so must do that just to see what its like, obvoiusly not long term or Id end up with duct work going outside caked in cooking grease. I do clean the filters once every 3 months and they pick up a lot of grease on the outsides of them so can only imagine what is like inside them. After wiping down with paper towels I put them through the dishwasher as per instructions but maybe I need to clean them monthly instead as I do cook a lot of smokey stuff like wok cooking, steaks, burgers, etc and the grease from that is likely slowing down the airflow.

    Either that or its extraction rating isnt sufficient but Id calculated the space its in as 85m3 and the hood itself is rated to 1000m3 per hour so it should be way over specced for the size of the kitchen. But maybe that rating they give is without the filters on and is just the power of the fan motor?

    This the model




  • Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭bemak


    Sorry, slight misunderstanding - I meant the charcoal filters if you have them. I'd leave the mesh filters on to catch the grease like you say. I wash mine every 2 weeks. They don't be long clogging up!



  • Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭paddyb


    Anyone come across any installers for these systems?

    Ecovolt will sell directly, Ermen will sell me the ecocomfort but none seem to do any installation.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 19,555 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    This is the spec sheet of the Ecovolt Zero 1 which is priced at 429 per unit from a supplier in Dublin 11

    It says it changes 60m3 of air per hour and is recommended for a space of up to 30m3 so it does two air changes per hour. Any thoughts on this, the space I have is about 80m3 and I was only intending on getting one unit rather than two. Does it really matter if it isnt changing all the air twice per hour? Id have thought as long as it is changing most of the air every hour then it doesnt really matter, its not like Im running a pharmaceutical clean room.

    In any case I think I'll go ahead and install one later this year when Im doing some internal insulation. 429 seems a decent enough price provided the unit lasts. And I like the idea that it is heating up the incoming air especially over the current situation with a 5 inch passive hole in the wall and heat going out of that in the name of ventilation. Its madness when you think about it, spending money to heat the house and then you have this 5 inch hole sitting there just sucking it out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 978 ✭✭✭bf


    These seem a much cheaper option, no idea how good they are though




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,459 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    How would these compare functionally to a ducted system.

    Would they be better or worse at cycling the air and also would they be better or worse at retaining heat?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,555 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Thanks, 230 euro is a great price so they truly have come down in price compared to a couple of years ago when I got a quote of 700 for a single Lunos unit. I was wary about paying big money without knowing the longevity of the units. I still wonder about that because they are supposed to run 24/7 which is a lot for a motor to do year after year.

    I cant comment on the performance of one system over the other but my understanding is that these ductless units are aimed at houses that are retrofitting. The ducted versions are moreso for new builds where they have access to walls during construction so ductwork can be run behind the plasterboard. Retrofitting a ducted system to an old house would cost a fortune because sections of walls would have to be removed and holes made in ceilngs, etc to get ductwork to the central ventilation unit located in the attic. A company quoted me before and just laying the ductwork in a retrofit 3 bed semi would cost 2-3k before you pay for the cost of the equipment so it could run to 4-5k all up.

    So its not economically viable unless money is no object. If you were building a brand new house you'd go with a ducted system as thats the industry standard for ventilation. If retrofitting then these ductless units provide a ventilation solution that avoids spending a fortune opening up walls to lay ductwork.

    As regards functonality of the ductless units as far as I can see they perform the same task of changing the air and heating the new air coming in. My main question is about the longevity of the units, like if it broke down after 5 years and it cost 500 you wouldnt be too impressed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,459 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Could you surface mount ducting I wonder? From what I've read the ducted systems are better at moving air.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,555 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Mount it on what though? You would hardly want exposed ducting running up the walls around the house and through ceilings & floors?

    These non ducted units are less than a foot in length with a fan and motor inside them. They would be pretty efficient at moving air, perhaps even more so than a system that has metres of ducting running all around the place with 90 degree turns when it meets an obstacle.



  • Subscribers Posts: 683 ✭✭✭FlipperThePriest


    I'm considering trying out one of these on a room, great price in comparison to what's out there. If it wasn't a decent enough unit, you'd imagine it probably wouldn't be available on the BPC Ventilation website? If it works out, I would probably kit out the whole bungalow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,459 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    All articles I've read have said that ducted is the better system as its better at moving air throughout a building. That and noise are the main disadvantages of a ductless system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 978 ✭✭✭bf


    Just to note these seem to be 150mm as opposed to 100mm, so may need to core vent holes to make them fit. Worth measuring before taking a leap!



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭bemak


    These look good alright. You'd imagine it's easy to swap out the fan if there's an issue down the line given how it's in a sleeve that can be removed. thats a nice feature compared to the others



Advertisement