Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177675#Comment_120177675

You know the sister with the curly hair, she's Hammi isn't she?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177694#Comment_120177694

No. Ammi

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177694#Comment_120177694

Ammi.

Hammi is just how they all act when there's cameras around.

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177601#Comment_120177601

Like I said, you seem to have difficulty observing what your argument is, you are arguing that I wouldn't participate in calling people by their preferred pronouns, I have absolutely no issue with going along with this if it what that person wishes, this would take no effort on my part and I would do it gladly if it makes them feel any more comfortable, but that's been completely overlooked by hopping up onto the woke horse, completely ignorant that you are actually enforcing your views onto someone else, then proposing bigotry, give it a break will ya

Fotish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177497#Comment_120177497

That's in your opinion, everybody doesn't have to agree with you !

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177768#Comment_120177768

No they don’t, but I would expect most to have the respect and decency to not to make a song and dance over pronouns.

Those who think they don’t have to do so, spend hours on here using bad faith arguments to try and justify being an arsehole, for no reason other than they can.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177550#Comment_120177550

Don’t get a job as a teacher so, or any job that involves dealing with customers, or colleagues.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177750#Comment_120177750

My argument is perfectly clear.

Your posts are very contradictory.

If you have no issue with it, then what is the problem?

And seeing as you are, in fact, willing, then what views of mine exactly do you think are being "enforced" onto you?

joe40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177420#Comment_120177420

Has there been any cases in Ireland where someone was forced to use another person preferred pronouns.

Enoch's current legal woes have nothing to do with pronouns and everything to do with obeying court orders.

Just curious has anyone been forced or has anyone ever taken a legal case against such a measure.

I'm not sure the school could have "forced" Enoch to use the students preferred pronouns in this instance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177768#Comment_120177768

Never said they did.

Quite frankly, I don't care who does and who doesn't. Because here's the thing. Opinions aren't what matters here. The law is.

In this country, transgender people have the right to self-identify, and there are laws against discrimination on the grounds of gender. Transgender folk have already taken numerous cases to the WRC on grounds of gender discrimination and won.

So you're welcome to whatever opinion you want, but if you think your opinion superceeds the rights of a trans person, - well, you could find yourself in a bit of a pickle.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177887#Comment_120177887

No one is forced to use pronouns. Burke could have addressed the student by their new name and used that name in all references to the student.

joe40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177982#Comment_120177982

Did the pupil have a new name? I just presumed they were non binary not transgender. Not sure about the specifics.

But even with that if Enoch had dug his heels and just refused to follow the schools direction on this issue, but not break any other rules or be abusive towards the principal I wonder how far the case would have went.

Just to be clear I think Enoch is despicable in his actions right from the start, I have zero respect for his position.

I'm just wondering what is the precise legal position. (I don't know just asking)

The correct moral and human position is clear for me.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177205#Comment_120177205

I think you might find that Enoch would say the 'law' is being used against him. I'd be thinking he will quite happy to vindicate his religious freedom rights in the courts. When you get rid of the froth of this case, it always comes back to religious patronage & ethos of many of our schools combined with Art.44 of our constitution. You can't have one set of acceptable school policies for one religion and squash those of alternative flavours of same. The Burkes are Christians, as is the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Ireland here etc.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178024#Comment_120178024

This case has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with a man trying to bully his boss to get his way. And then trying to ignore the inevitable consequences of his action.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178046#Comment_120178046

That's the facile explanation that's routinely trotted out. Get to the root of the issue.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177887#Comment_120177887

The main cases that springs to my mind with moral/religion v rights of the individual. Is the X case obviously.

And there was another one involving Jehovah a witnesses and blood transfusions. Name escapes me on the latter case.

But to me this scenario Burke v Wilson Hospital/Transgenderism is of similar tone the only difference is Religious Beliefs/religious doctrines are firmly relegated in the majority of the minds of Irish society.

The old religious doctrines have been replaced by the rights of the individual and an individuals freedom. Not that of collective - governed by what is morally right or wrong based on religion

.The new Irish society majority doctrine is based on how an individual feels at any particular moment in time.

No longer based on a set of principles/guidelines and rules of behaviour by which to live. It is now individualism rather than collectivism.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178058#Comment_120178058

No, that's the root of the issue. The religious rights folderal is the froth, attempting to obscure the very straightforward case.

It could've been about his religious rights if he had been able to keep himself under control and taken it through proper channels. But he didn't, so it isn't.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178058#Comment_120178058

it is the explanation that a court agreed with.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178073#Comment_120178073

The old religious doctrines have been replaced by the rights of the individual and an individuals freedom. Not that of collective governed by what is morally right or wrong based on religion

Good.

joe40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178024#Comment_120178024

The actual court case in this situation has nothing to do with religion or pronouns or transgenderism or any of that stuff.

A court order applied a court against Enoch because he kept attending while suspended. The court had nothing to do with the original suspension, that was between Enoch and the school.

Enoch current legal trouble is because he refused to obey the court order. simple as that.

The Court or the legal have zero interest in his dealings with the school prior to him refusing to obey a court order.

Why is this so difficult for some to understand.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178089#Comment_120178089

Again depends on your perspective. Many of the older generations see the younger generations as lost and confused- directionless. Searching for a purpose and themselves. So many new ism’s and new problems.

I am not saying that when Ireland was controlled by Religious dogma it was all good by any means. Burke ironically is an example of this.

But it seems to me Ireland has come 180 degrees. Too far the other way.

People wrapped up in themselves. Body image, suicide,mental health issues. 21st Century technology leading to people being much more easily manipulated at a quicker pace. Short attention spans looking for instant gratification and answers.

With zero filters, zero guidelines and zero control. Like a rollercoaster with the handbrake off. Eventually it will calm down I assume? But there will be some crash before that.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177887#Comment_120177887

Tbf, if it is school policy to agree with a student's wish to be called by a new name and by their preferred pronouns, teachers effectively have no choice but to do so.

Yes, a teacher could avoid using 'they' by always using their name, but if a person has an issue with use of the new pronouns, I assume that use of the new name is just as much of an issue as the pronouns, for the same reason.

Now, in Enoch's case, he may not ever have had to address/discuss the student in question, but in terms of this being a general policy across schools, that's beside the point - I think that teachers are effectively forced to use the preferred pronouns and preferred name.

What would happen if a teacher simply carried on using their previous name and the same pronouns as previously? I'd expect that there would, eventually, be consequences of some kind.

Now, I don't have any problems with such a policy, and I wouldn't feel 'forced' to use their new name or preferred pronouns, but I think 'forced' is an accurate word all the same.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178120#Comment_120178120

many of the older generation are disappointed that they no longer have control over the younger generations. that is probably more accurate.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178120#Comment_120178120

That's everywhere to be fair - we've taken all our blind faith out of one diety and place it in another. But I fail to see how you can see that that's what happened here without knowing the student personally?

andala

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177601#Comment_120177601

Have you ever worked as a teacher? How is one supposed to know if it's a genuinely transgender person asking to be referred to by their preferred pronouns or an attention seeking hormonal teen desperate to mess with the teacher? I'm all in for addressing transgender people respectfully and per their form of choosing once they've sorted or are in the process of legalising the change. If you think that it's such a big and serious issue that a teenager in a group of their peers would never abuse the system then you have either no experience with teens or are more naive than me. As far as I'm concerned, you address the student as they appear on the roll to avoid trouble.

Having written that, I find the EB situation completely bizarre, he's making a mockery of the system and getting away with it. Surely if you disagree with your company's treatment of you, you file a lawsuit against them rather than make a dance and show about it?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178024#Comment_120178024

Again time and time again you refuse to countenance that Enochs actions are the issue and Enoch is responsible for his actions. The school patron does not see any issues at all that their ethos has been infringed. The school board, the school teachers and students dont. Why should everyone in the school have to adhere to EBs strict religious doctrine when they are all very clear there is no problem breaching the ethos.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178139#Comment_120178139

Well I can surmise and reflect. Judge the tone of the thread and the reaction to Burke. On the thread Burke is a figure of fun. Obviously a lot of it is justified.

But in today’s Ireland there is never going to be Mod warnings when someone’s religious beliefs are slagged off.

Religious beliefs are now viewed as fair game.

And even hinting/questioning at the state of my of any individual beyond religious beliefs is severely frowned upon in today’s society. As it can cause grave offence.

Much like how not so many years ago questioning religious doctrines - practices was severely frowned upon and was viewed as causing grave offence.

That is what I mean by the 180 degree change in Irish society.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178120#Comment_120178120

Suicide rates are dropping quite a lot in recent years. No idea why you dropped that in there. It's almost as if you are just making it up as you go along?

12.4 people per 100k in 2009 to 6.8

people per 100k in 2021.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/recorded-suicides-in-ireland-fall-to-lowest-level-in-two-decades-1.4664538

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178193#Comment_120178193

They are fair game the same way any opinion is. they're not special.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178171#Comment_120178171

I think you can "tell them apart" because in this case the childs parents went to the school with the request and attended a school board meeting to discuss how to approach the issue. They also went to the school at the end of the school year with the plan for things to change from the beginning of the next school year (They met with school board in June when School was over for the Academic year)

It's not like the kid just stuck their hand up in 2nd period Geography and asked to be referred to as they/them.

Kids will always take advantage when given an opportunity , this is absolutely not one of those situations.

I wonder who’s gonna get bored first Burke or the Burke Simps?

My moneys on Burke.

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177842#Comment_120177842

I'd make a great teacher so I would, open minds everywhere, ideas would be nurtured from seedlings of dreams into reality.

In an employed environment the rules are already written so I personally never have any problems there, every abides by the rulez, bullying into beliefs is generally frowned upon. On the other hand, outside of such an environment where each individual has their own rules, which again is fine, until they propose to push them on others, such ideas as the abolishment of motorised traffic and enforced pronouns belong in the imagination of the originating head, and there alone.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178198#Comment_120178198

That is not what the media is saying. Young males angry and confused. Confusion about their purpose and sense of self. Women and young girls pressured over social media. Sense of self identity and so on

The Burke scenario is symptomatic of one form of control - Religion. Being replaced by another individualism. Where the majority now has to affirm the minority constantly. For fear of causing offence.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178193#Comment_120178193

I think Burke is a tit however you do have a fair point re religion. One often seems comments along the lines of "or whatever sky fairy you believe in". Imagine the infractions that'd be handed out if transgenderism was talked about the same way?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178232#Comment_120178232

I just added a media source. What media source disagrees with it?

A 30 second Google can lay out facts. Suicide rates are falling dramatically in recent years.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178230#Comment_120178230

School policies are regularly updated. If you’re not happy to work in an environment where others will update policies that you will be required to comply with, don’t get a job as a teacher.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178193#Comment_120178193

You seem to misunderstand, most couldn't give 2 hoots about his religious beliefs. Only he is the one saying this is all about religion. Everyone else is saying its to do with his bullying and his non-compliance to the direction of the courts

Well, only Enoch and his merry band of followers, think its to do with religion

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178247#Comment_120178247

Comedians often talk about the difference between "Punching down" and "Punching up" in terms of what is acceptable and/or funny.

Punching down is picking on a weaker entity and using them as your source of fun - Making fun of people with disabilities for example.

Punching up is the opposite , using entities with authority etc. as the source of fun.

In your scenario above - Who's punching up and who's punching down??

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178257#Comment_120178257

How many emails do we all get on a regular basis telling us that the "Our Terms & Conditions have been updated" from some Company or other for whatever Service/Product we are getting from them??

Policies change all the time and as long they comply with the law of the land and you are provided adequate notice (like being told in June about something you'll be asked to do from September for example) there is no legal issue with those changes.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178073#Comment_120178073

None of the legal cases are to do with religion. They are to do with Burkes actions.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178273#Comment_120178273

In my example and in general it's the RCC we are talking about, it's deffo a case of punching up to slag of religion. However in reference to saying to someone "whatever sky fairy you believe in" is different as it's the individual that is being belittled. In fairness you make a good point however is it not more a case of a general leaning on the moderation rather than a mod thinking, "hmm, is this punching up or down"? Anyway, I'll hold you to this when transgenderism is in the driving seat in ten years time and I start taking the piss!.

While I don't understand trans, I'd never want to hurt another persons feelings and would refer to them how they wish. However I have an issue with the legal element of self IDing.

Also think the sky fairy comment is correct, god is Santa for adults but I still wouldn't say that to a religious person.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178193#Comment_120178193

To be fair, there has not been much ridicule of his beliefs - just of how he went about portraying it as so. We both know it's not about his beliefs and he could have resigned and upheld his beliefs and gotten a lot more respect for it.

Beyond that I feel a contradition here: people are too scared about offending based on religion and too people slagging off religious beliefs...? For me, the truth in most cases is neither: people simply don't give a ****.

We can question and disagree with beliefs but none of this is causing offense. And none of this is relevant because a student made a choice that was unlikely to have been based on religion and a teacher for suspended for objecting rudely and aggrressively. The fact that he did it basde on religious grounds means no difference, as you and I both know.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178099#Comment_120178099

And the fines keep building.

The judge mentioned coming to court with clean hands.

If he doesn't pay the fine it will undermine any further legal challenges he takes, whatever they may be.

Digging a deep hole for themselves here, the Burke's.

I assume he will hold out until the Feb. 10th court hearing at this point.

If anyone is bored, feel free to read the judgement from last weeks hearing. Enoch comes across as utterly bonkers

https://www.courts.ie/view/judgments/f1f71ac7-e5e3-4cd2-b259-4a33f6c4dd3f/4fc73855-3ed1-41c1-908d-9ac7e1a5bad1/2023_IEHC_36.pdf/pdf

Burke

“16. These Orders are invalid, being manifestly unconstitutional and lawful. Hence,they are void ab initio i.e.,without legal effect, an absolute nullity from their inception.

17. I have breached no valid Order of this Court.

18. Any sequestration of my assets by this Court, or similar measure, would be ultra vires i.e., beyond the legal power or authorityof the Court. The Plaintiff’s application should be utterly rejected in its entirety.”

The Judge

26.

The Constitution, upon which Mr. Burke so heavily relies, sets out a clear hierarchy in respect of the administration of justice in Ireland. Decisions of the High Court are not subject to review and reversal by this Court. Decisions of this Court are appealed to the Court of Appeal or, in unusual circumstances, directly to the Supreme Court. Mr. Burke has invoked this appeal procedure, and his application to the Court of Appeal is to be heard in a matter of weeks. It is the Court of Appeal which will determine whether or not the relevant Orders of this Court are valid. Unless the Order of Barrett J is reversed on appeal, expires by being overtaken by the outcome of the trial of this action, or is set aside on foot of a settlement of these proceedings, it remains an effective Order of the High Court which must be obeyed. The essence of Mr. Burke's evidence, and his subsequent oral submission, to the effect that the Order of Barrett J is void(because Mr. Burke believes it to be)is entirely misconceived. In advancing this argument, Mr. Burke is placing his views above these of the High Court and (possibly) somewhere below those of the Court of Appeal. Inasmuch as Mr.Burke is inviting me to set aside the Order of Barrett J, or otherwise find it to be void, he is simply asking me to do something which is constitutionally impermissible.

Someone more legally educated than I can clarify, but as far as I can tell, Burke is using the well known legal argument of "I'm right, you're wrong, because I said so!!". Only time will tell how effective this will be

One the point of religion, the judge stated

Mr. Burke also sought to distinguish the decisions in the Meath County Council and Galway Corporation cases on the basic ground that both involved illegal dumping, which is not a right protected by the Constitution,whereas religious beliefs are so protected. However, this argument fails to appreciate that the essence of these two decisions involved the appropriate response by the Court to continued defiance of its Orders. That is exactly the issue before the Court on this motion. It is also the case that compliance with the Order of Barrett J in no way compromises Mr. Burke's religious beliefs. This important fact is noted both in my Ruling freeing Mr. Burke, and in the recent judgment of Dignam J refusing him an injunction against the school restraining the continuation of the disciplinary process; see the latter judgment at [2023] IEHC 22. As I observed in 16 my Ruling of the 21st of December 2022, no religious belief is offended or violated by staying at home or by refraining from entering on private property.

Deebles McBeebles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177842#Comment_120177842

Or dogs or rocks.

pgj2015

Such a waste of a life, he should be enjoying his life, partying, going on holidays abroad, getting hammered, pulling women, going to raves, but no, he is acting like a crazy ex, wasting his days hanging around a school outside in Ireland in January.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178396#Comment_120178396

I love that he felt the need to explain what ab initio and ultra vires mean to a high court judge.

Gregor Samsa

Burke actually spoiled an opportunity to test the argument for religious discrimination on this by acting like a loon and going full Burke on it. He made it all about not following procedure form the get-go, and then not following the law and the courts. There's no-one else to blame but him.

Although I'd say he did that in the full knowledge that a straight up-argument of claiming that being requested to follow school policy on this matter wouldn't have got him anywhere at all. It's an absurd argument that merely saying the common English words "they" and "them" in a particular context is against your religion.

And even if it was against a particular religion, any court would have to balance the right's of the school to have policies and the rights of the student against his "religious" right. And there's no guarantee that a court would decide that his religious rights trump anyone else's.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178600#Comment_120178600

...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178230#Comment_120178230

So a great teacher is one that abides by the rules. I'm curious to know who's dreams and ideas are being nurtured here, but I think I know already. It's probably one of the most deprressing things written about Irish ediucation (and mostly because it's probably true)