Asked to drive a work car but insurance, tax, nct discs are missing

Notmything

This could just as easily be post in legal but anyways.

So I work for a service for children in care, we have a work car for day to day us. However, one of the children has taken the tax, insurance and NCT discs. The company have told us we are still expected to use the car daily.

I expressed concerns that if we were stopped by the gardai it would be the drivers who would get in trouble. The company have told us that the car is road legal and we have no right to refuse to drive it.

I've put it that I'm unwilling to drive the car until replacement discs are supplied but I suppose I'm asking if the company are right to demand we drive the car?

dashoonage

we had a similar issue in work years back..... we stuck to the " no disc no drive policy"

elperello

The car is not road legal.

Non display is a separate offence.

Consult union rep.

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940577#Comment_119940577

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940624#Comment_119940624

Thanks for the feedback. No union unfortunately. HR are telling us to drive or else.

Atlantic Dawn

Could the company give you the certificate of insurance, the full NCT certificate and a copy of the receipt for the purchase of the motor tax to carry around with you while they wait for replacement discs? With these I would drive it while waiting for replacements, without them I wouldn't, they should have these original documents as they are as important as the discs.

Do you believe the company is telling the truth about discs simply being missing? Did you check the registration plate on the NCT website to double check it's valid?

Notmything

Witnesses saw the discs being removed and shredded, so that's not an issue.

Those forms have been requested while waiting for new discs, but "we're working on it".

whomitconcerns

You drive it, you are liable. Not the company.

Don't do it

cpoh1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940624#Comment_119940624

Consult union rep? What is the world coming to?

OP why dont you work with your employer here, they are being proactive and doing their best to replace the discs, in the meantime drive away. Worst that can happen is the car is impounded but its not your property and you've flagged the risk already. In reality a garda would completely understand and wave you on. Driving children who are in care around is a pretty meaningful job that you dont want to disrupt, bigger picture like.

cpoh1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940788#Comment_119940788

Youre not though, the owner of the car gets landed with any penalties?

TherapyBoy

“In reality” ..a Garda would no doubt tell you that failure to display is an offence & to produce all the documents at the Garda station within 10 days. You’re then relying on your employer to get you the insurance cert, NCT cert & tax disc before you’re fined or get a summons to appear in court.

Tell them you’ll drive your own taxed, insured & nct’d car until they get sorted & that you’ll keep track of the petrol/mileage expenses owed, see what they say

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940819#Comment_119940819

No, the driver is.

DownByTheGarden

Drive it to the police station. Explain it to to a guard at the window and ask him to come out and tell you you cant drive the car away.

Then go back to the company and tell them they have to contact the guards to get it back from the police station because the guard wont let you drive it.

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940873#Comment_119940873

Yeah, sure do it the most ridiculously awkward way.

OP have them give it to you in writing that the car is to be driven with no discs displayed. When you have it, tell them you won't be driving it regardless. You'll be laughing all the way to the bank if they try to discipline/dismiss you over it.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940893#Comment_119940893

Whooosh!!

Park the car outside a Garda Station and go for a long coffee…

This reminds me of a ludicrous situation where a manager went mad because I wouldn’t use her personal credit card to make purchases in a shop. I was stopped and queried about it twice, because the card clearly wasn’t mine and was in a name that wasn’t me.

Company policy and ridiculous bosses’ demands don’t mean you can break the law and say “I was only following orders.”

If they fire you, you’ve likely got serious grounds for expensive unfair dismissal claims.

walterking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940624#Comment_119940624

can you explain how its not "road legal" - you are suggesting that it is unsafe?

for the OP, the garda will be able to check this in an instant and will see that the NCT, Tax and Insurance are in place. A letter from the service provider saying that the item were taken and destroyed by a service user will suffice for all but the most arrogant garda.

Things can be very difficult for services like this - the poster telling you to act like a belligerent child should look at the reality

Failure to DISPLAY the discs is a road traffic offence in and of itself and the insurance one in particular triggers immediate alarm bells with the Gardai.

If you end up going as far as a traffic offences session in the district court, it’s often a very, very busy sitting a you will get about 2 seconds to explain yourself and can get rather summary justice. It’s way more hassle than it’s worth.

It’s your employer’s fault and they should provide you with at the very least an insurance company cover note (takes a quick chat over the phone for 2 mins and will be issued by email).

Also you should have whatever remains of the discs. Even if they’re crumbled / shedded up they’re useful.

Quite honestly if you were stopped by a Garda and told them a child had destroyed all of your car’s insurance and tax disks, it would be up there with “teacher, the dog ate my homework.” The excuse sounds immediately implausible and unbelievable even if it’s true. Then adding that you don’t actually own the car …

Suddenly you’re the one doing an awful lot rather unnecessary explaining …

Tippman24

The charge that usually issues is "use" of vehicle with no NCT, TAX, Insurance Disc displayed. After the detection the first step in the issuing of Fixed Charge notices to the user which in this case is you. There is a separate charge issued to the owner, but it has the facility to make a nomination, which can again result in the driver being nominated. Ultimately it is up to you to ensure that the documents required are available and in order.

If you are stopped the onus of getting the paperwork will fall onto you as you will be the person that the Fixed Charge/Summons will issue to if the matte remains unpaid.

Notmything

Thanks everyone for their input.

Management have had 3 weeks to sort replacements but still haven't.

The car was driven in the meantime as "replacements are on the way". It was management who flagged the risks posed by driving the car so a decision was made to leave it parked up.

However, now the pressure is being applied to drive it because of the extra costs from using taxis. If the car was staying local it might be possible to have a chat with the gardai as we have a good relationship with them. But in reality we could be asked to drive anywhere to assist the child, and that adds an additional risk.

We've been told to drive it, and if we are stopped or receive a fine it's on us, but if we don't drive then it's disciplinary action.

Three weeks is ridiculous. It doesn’t take that long. The tax disc will be reissued very rapidly once reported and all insurers can issue an immediate cover note outlining that it’s still on cover and discs have been ordered. They can usually get the replacement disks done quite quickly.

I don’t know enough about the NCTS processes to comment but they’re usually not slow either, it’s more of an appointment backlog issue for inspections that has been giving them trouble.

As for the fine being “on you” and if you don’t drive it you’re going to face disciplinary action, I would suggest your employer might want to familiarise themselves with the WRC. They may need to!

mondeoman72

Do you know any friendly gardai that can "do you"? Turn you around and TELL you that a summons is on the way?

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941003#Comment_119941003

WRC is alien to them. It's all about the profit margin

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941007#Comment_119941007

Why would he need a Garda for that at all?

He could just arrive back and say it happened...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941018#Comment_119941018

It’s not alien for very long if a case is taken.

Btw are you sure the car is actually taxed and insured? How do you know it is?

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941040#Comment_119941040

It's been taxed and insured theres no issue there.

Have been driving it for a while.

FishOnABike

A little searching finds this https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1999/si/395

The relevant section :

5. A person shall not use in a public place a vehicle to which these Regulations apply unless there is displayed on the front windscreen of the said vehicle a valid test disc.

It is clearly the user that is liable, in the case of a NCT disk at least. I'd be reasonably sure the same principle would apply for tax and insurance disks.

I'd suggest the company should use an alternative vehicle or taxi until they have replaced all three disks and put strong tape over the gaps in the disk holder in future.

It would seriously take an admin person 30 mins to get those discs and cover notes chased up by phone and email. Makes no sense that it's dragging on and on.

Some of them, notably the tax disc, require a physical trip to a garda station to get a form stamped declaring the loss of the disc.

Same form actually applies for the NCT disc too, so you would fill it in twice and get it stamped by the Gardai

https://www.rsa.ie/docs/default-source/about/form-rf-1343274a928-0593-4484-8779-808fada6cc6b.pdf?sfvrsn=d9af362f_3

The insurance company would deal with its own processes, but aren't too slow normally.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940852#Comment_119940852

You need business insurance on your policy to drive your own car in these circumstances.

End of story.

Edit

I'd rather drive the work vehicle without the discs then my own on business without the correct business cover on my insurance.

FishOnABike

This comprehensive answer to a similar question in another thread

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/110058201#Comment_110058201

explains that both driver and owner are liable to prosecution.

It's your employer's responsibility to provide you with a work vehicle which meets all the legal requirements. If it dos not meet all the legal requirements you shouldn't drive it.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940679#Comment_119940679

If HR are so adamant, maybe they can chauffeur you and the children you are responsible for until they get replacement disks 😉

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940679#Comment_119940679

Might be time to organise and join a union.

Insurance companies will send a disc by email now, so there's no excuse for any delay. Driver would be liable for penalty points for the NCT disc, so there's no way they should be driving.

hoodie6029

Make sure you email your manager and outline the situation to him/her. Add a timeline of everything that had happened and ask him/her to give a date when they expect the new discs to arrive.

Tell him/her your concerns about facing fines/points for non-display of discs.

Ask for a response to the email that they acknowledge and agree to the contents.

It might light a fire under them and at the very least you have a record of what happened and they can’t deny that.

If they get shirty, ask them for the details of who to call and you’ll request the discs. Whoever is in charge of the cars should doing it but you might be retired by the time they do it by the sound of it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940925#Comment_119940925

It's an offence not to display the discs.it's not road legal without them present.

The driver is responsible for the condition of the vehicle and ensuring it is legal.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940801#Comment_119940801

The employee here is the one being pro active by trying to abide by the the law.The employer is not.Failure to display the missing documents is an offence for which the driver and the keeper will be prosecuted.If the the employer is being obstinate then the union is the next step presuming one is allowed by this particular employer.You're assuming a lot about an individual garda opinion or indeed choice of enforcing the road traffic laws.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058274028/asked-to-drive-a-work-car-but-insurance-tax-nct-discs-are-missing

How does a child get unrestricted access to discs attached to the windscreen?

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941193#Comment_119941193

Never forget that HR work for the company not the employee.

But the rest is the rest of the idea is good, let management and HR drive till they get the required documents.

ba_barabus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940679#Comment_119940679

Or else what? HR know just how difficult recruitment and retention in this sector are right now. I'd happily call their bluff.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940946#Comment_119940946

My Dad took a loan of my uncles car and got stopped for having no valid tax disc. My uncle had forgotten to put the new disc in. Both of them got done for it. Owner and driver.

Buffman

OP, while you can technically get the 'non-display' offences cancelled if you can prove the car was actually covered at the time of the FCN, as an employee it's not your problem to be sorting out. 100% don't drive it.

Your job is taking the pee big time by threatening disciplinary action on this and would leave themselves wide open to further action if they follow through on it.

All those missing discs could have been replaced well within 3 weeks if the job had bothered actioning it sooner.

There's also the issue that the service user shouldn't have been left alone in the vehicle in the first place.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944336#Comment_119944336

If it was actually taxed at the time they should have applied to have it cancelled.

https://www.garda.ie/en/roads-policing/fixed-charge-notices/cancelling-fixed-charge-notices.html

"Category A

Cancellation requests falling within this category include –

............................................

In relation to an FCN for non-display of motor tax or insurance disc, motor tax had been taken out or applied for, or in the case of the non display of an insurance disc motor insurance was in place, at the time of the alleged offence."

TipsyMcStagge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940819#Comment_119940819

WRONG the driver gets done.

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945226#Comment_119945226

Noone has ever said the service user was alone in the car fwiw.

For the record I was not there when it occurred, and how it occurred is not the issue.

Im grateful for all the advice given to date, and it backs up my own feelings on the issue.

There's definitely an element of "I'll take care of it tomorrow" in relation to getting replacement discs which in itself is part of a wider issue with the company.

Buffman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945284#Comment_119945284

Fair enough, I can understand when dealing with service users that it's impossible to stop them doing something like that even if staff were in the vehicle.

It's a hazard of the cars business use so the company should be prepared for these types of things to happen and not expect the staff to suck it up. 👍️

mikeecho

Get it in writing from your employer.

Then park up, as soon as you see a parking Warden.

The registered owner will get the ticket, and the headache of sorting it out in court.

Gatling

From experience if the op transports children in his /her own car as part of their work, insurance could be null and voided in case of an accident or other .

Check with your own insurance op before using your own car to transport children as part of a child care setting

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940819#Comment_119940819

Incorrect.

The driver is liable.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940679#Comment_119940679

Ask for that in writing.

But first ask them for a letter that explains the situation should you be stopped by a garda. Include copies of the insurance certificate and any tax and NCT receipts. Keep a copy of this letter for yourself.

Discuss how the errant child should (not) be transported.

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945814#Comment_119945814

No chance of personal cars being used, that's never been a runner.

Will be interesting to see how this goes, not everyone is a driver" so only a few of us are facing "disciplinary action " for not wanting to break the law.

FishOnABike

What effort has the company made get the discs replaced?

Have they shown that the required RF 134 form (one for tax and one for NCT) have been completed, including Garda witness + station stamp, and forwarded with the appropriate fee to the motor tax office and RSA respectively ? When this was done and when they expect to receive the replacement disks?

Similarly for the insurance disk. It should take no more than a few days for the insurance company to issue a duplicate either that or self print the disk.

Three weeks is ridiculous for the company not to have sorted replacement disks. If anyone should be disciplined, it should be management, HR and whoever is responsible for getting replacment disks, for their collective incompetence.

Without disks the car should not be used or parked in a public place.

Management themselves flagged the risk. If anyone is disciplined for not driving a car without all the required disks the company could risk adding work place relations hearing costs, potential WRC award and legal costs to the current taxi costs. The company haven't a leg to stand on.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940679#Comment_119940679

A HR function suggesting that the employee is required to break the law is not a Human Resources function worth having. Is it a state agency or subcontracted to a state agency? Consider lodging a grievance and/or a protected disclosure. The latter is possibly more appropriate if the HR function has sought to enforce this, ie they cannot adequately deal with a grievance claim.