Applying for access to neices.

pbn

Has anybody successfully won an access order to visitation rights for neices or nephew's? I'd love to hear any stories.

Peregrinus

Is this in the context of a marriage breakdown, or are the parents united in their desire to keep the nieces/nephews from their uncle/aunt?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058273988/applying-for-access-to-neices

Courts would be unlikely to intervene

Dial Hard

@Peregrinus Does it make any difference? I didn't think anyone other than a parent had any right to seek access through the courts, no?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942824#Comment_119942824

I think its a long shot either way. But if the question of guardianship, custody, etc of children is already before the court, and the court has a paramount duty to act in the best interests of the children, then there might be some way in which you could shoehorn in an application in the context of those proceedings, or get one of the parents to raise it as an issue — be worth exploring, anyway. But if there's no family breakdown, if it's simply a case that the parents do not facilitate, or actively prevent, the children having a relationship with their uncle or aunt, it's very hard to see the court intervening, or even any basis on which the uncle/aunt could bring an application.

If uncle/aunt thinks the situation threatens harm to the children they can take the matter up with Tusla, and depending on the facts Tusla might launch proceedings in which the children's relationship with uncle/aunt is raised as an issue but, frankly, it would be a fairly minor issue in the overall proceedings. And it would require extraordinary facts that the OP doesn't even hint at.

Long story short: "I don't get to see my nephews/nieces" is not, on its own, grounds for a court application. Nobody has a legal right to see someone else's children.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942824#Comment_119942824

For relatives it is a two-step process. The first is they have to make an application to the court to seek leave to make an application for access, basically convince a judge their case is justified.

Information given in this link refers to grandparents, but other relatives can try too. I don't know what rate of success these claims have.

https://www.treoir.ie/groups/grandparent/

pbn

Thank you all for comments. Without getting into too much details....the general situation is....one parent past away....the other parent is now sole guardian. The family of the deceased person no longer have a relationship with surviving parent or children.

There are no concerns whatsoever with surviving parents skills or welfare.

All communications are no broke down except via solicitor's.

The surviving parent has serious concerns on allowing access of children on many levels and thinks it is not in best interests of children.

Has anyone ever seen or know of cases like this in courts?

Thank you

pbn

Arian...do you know if guardian of children gets notified of an application of leave? Can they have a say before an actual application is granted or submitted? Thank you

ELM327

This is very very unlikely to achieve anything. I would strongly suggest contacting a solicitor versed in family law.

As someone who is in a blended family and experienced several court cases. The courts are set up to look after the child number 1, and the parents number 2, and no one else. The way it should be.

awsah

you really do need to speak to a family law solicitor.

if it is an ex-parte application then the parent will not be notified until the Judge grants them leave to bring the application.

they could potentially apply for access under the new guardianship of infantas act 2015, although I am not aware if that has been enacted - in any event I think it really only applies to grandparents and non-biological cohabitants who may have cared for the child.

I am wondering why the two sides are communicating through solicitors, surely the parent should just tell the aunts and uncles not to communicate with him/her and that should be that. is it the case that the nieces/nephews were living with the aunts/uncles or being supported/cared for by them in some way?

pbn

That's excellent information. Tha k you again.

The aunts uncles are not the type of people youd want your children around. And its more about pride than access. People are asking how children are...they don't know what to say except lies....to keep face....if they get access (which sounds unlikely going by comments here) it might in tjier head justifies thier bad behaviour.

If judge Grant's application...how long are these cases taking to get to court and be heard from experience?

Yes I agree a family law solicitor best. Just trying to.get a lay of land here.

pbn

No children never lived or supported by aunts uncles.....just the usual holiday bday celebrations previously.

pbn

how long are these cases taking to get to court and be heard from experience?

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119955157#Comment_119955157

The courts aren’t going to be interested in a family row. If the parents/parent says the kids can’t see a particular person/people then that’s it.

pbn

Update.

Sole parent now been threatened and looks likely relatives taking an application to Circuit Court under sec 11B of Guardianship of infants act 1964 to seek access.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380552#Comment_120380552

Do the relatives have guardianship rights?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384314#Comment_120384314

A relative (other than a parent, obviously) have no guardianship rights unless (a) the parents have died and have by their will appointed the relative to be guardian, or (b) a court has made an order appointing the relative as guardian.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384314#Comment_120384314

No.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380552#Comment_120380552

Threatened by who?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386207#Comment_120386207

If they are not guardians how are they using section 11?

11. —(1) Any person being a guardian of an infant may apply to the court for its direction on any question affecting the welfare of the infant and the court may make such order as it thinks proper.

Hotblack Desiato

Well to the Lionel Hutzes of this world it matters little what the law actually says provided they can quote it at people to frighten them.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386518#Comment_120386518

Irish children who have parents who are married to one another have 2 guardians. (Their 2 parents).

If their parents are not married to each other they have one guardian. (Their mother). In that case the father of the child can ask the mother to award him guardianship. That can be done in a solicitors office (if the mother agrees to it).

If she doesn’t agree to it then he’d have to go to the District Court to apply for guardianship. The mother can object in court but generally if he’s a decent enough guy the court will award guardianship.

If there are extraordinary circumstances for instance one parent dies and the other is in prison, or the children are removed from the parent/parents then close family can apply for guardianship.

But if there has been a family row and the parents of the children have decided, rightly or wrongly, that their family are no longer going to have access to the children then that is the end of that.

It’s not only the parents right, it’s their duty, to protect their children from people they don’t consider to have their children’s best interest at heart.

Of course if you as a family member are concerned for the children’s safety and welfare you must immediately alert the Gardai or TUSLA immediately.

If not then by all manner and means try to engage a solicitor to look for access to children who aren’t yours but it won’t go anywhere.

Anything else would be preposterous. Imagine a world where every time there was a family row with in laws that ended in a ban on seeing the kids, that it could end up in court😂😂😂. Total chaos.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386984#Comment_120386984

I'm not sure if you've acquainted yourself with the facts of this case, you're quoting legal theory and most of what you're saying does not apply in this case.

One of the child's parents is deceased and 'There are no concerns whatsoever with surviving parents skills or welfare.' No third party was appointed as guardian so the surviving parent is the child's sole guardian.

The OP's concern is not about the child's welfare under the surviving parent, he or she is concerned about allowing an unsuitable cohort of relatives access to the child - 'The aunts uncles are not the type of people youd want your children around'

Hotblack Desiato

Would these relatives be into the whole "freeman" thing I wonder, or friends with those who are? Seems someone is giving them very duff advice anyway.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388558#Comment_120388558

There’s just such a lot of wild misinformation surrounding family law always . Lots of barstool solicitors talking sh**.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386518#Comment_120386518

You’re looking at the wrong section, the OP cited s11B which is as follows:

11B.—(1) Any person who—

(a) is a relative of a child, or,

F49[(b) is a person with whom the child resides or has formerly resided,]

and to whom section 11 does not apply may, subject to subsection (3), apply to the court for an order giving that person access to the child on such terms and conditions as the court may order.

(2) F50[…]

(3) In deciding whether to grant leave under subsection (1), the court shall have regard to all the circumstances, including in particular—

(a) the applicant’s connection with the child,

(b) the risk, if any, of the application disrupting the child's life to the extent that the child would be harmed by it,

(c) the wishes of the child’s F51[guardians,]

F52[(d) the views of the child, and

(e) whether it is necessary to make an order to facilitate the access of the person to the child.]

(4) In this section, a relative of a child who is the subject of an adoption order includes—

(a) a relative of the child’s adoptive parents,

(b) the adoptive parents of the child’s parents, or

(c) a relative of the adoptive parents of the child’s parents.]

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390609#Comment_120390609

I was looking at the original not the revised version.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390626#Comment_120390626

Way too dangerous to do that!

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391284#Comment_120391284

I really should have copped it though, given there is no section 11B in the original.

pbn

Threatened by relatives solicitors.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392310#Comment_120392310

Ignore. Until you get a court summons, let them send all the solicitors letters they want.

pbn

Thank you for replies. If ....summons arrives I will update.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392310#Comment_120392310

Solicitors will, for a fee, send any letter you instruct them too as long as it’s not breaking the law.

sporina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392835#Comment_120392835

i don't have anything to add except it seems to me that a lot of solicitors are out to make money - basing this on the experiences of some friends of late

pbn

Summons arrived. Looks like its headed before a judge. Should be good fun. And alot cash out the window.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392911#Comment_120392911

Believe it or not, most solicitors have to make money! Very few can survive without making money.

sporina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120620045#Comment_120620045

yeah - but should be done with the client's best interest at heart - not always the case

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386984#Comment_120386984

There were some changes to the laws on guardianship - they were updated by the Children and Family Relationships Act 2015.

More info here:

https://www.treoir.ie/information/guardianship-information/

Unmarried fathers can now acquire guardianship via cohabitaton and other family members (including step-parents) can, in some circumstances, apply for guardianship and may be granted it, even when the child's parents are already both guardians.

pbn

I feel courts are already clogged up with mother/father cases....if aunts and uncles are now been entertained it will open up flood gates and set precedents?

I will update with more info as it unfolds.

Hotblack Desiato

I don't see that happening, any time there's a separation the issue of custody between the parents needs to be sorted out. The number of people who are not parents who might seek to use the courts to gain access to kids has got to be tiny. I'd imagine even grandparents would have great difficulty in establishing a case for court-ordered access if both parents were firmly against it.

Ginger83

Probably irrelevant but how do the children feel about these relatives?

pbn

From the kids point of view...they dont know them anymore...dont mention them...they will gain nothing from access...they are very happy...settled...secure...loved...so absolutely not irrelevant....imo the opposite...that's priority...not that relatives are unhappy with the situation.