Dairy Calves 2024

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806926#Comment_120806926

To a point your right ….they will look good as calves buried in straw …shiny coats from heap of whole milk but they won’t have the carcase weight or confirmation when it counts

Anto_Meath

@mahoney_j if a decent enough BB bull is used they will be OK, they can grade and I have had them grade R- and kill out upto 350 kgs as bullocks. Can be light on fat cover (you never have a 3+) but that's a BB issue... they are all that should be used on JEx cows apart for a few sexed straws for replacements.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806941#Comment_120806941

The dairy farmer working his 50 hour week in the spring isn't going to want to be married to a calving jack to calf these cows though, I gave up using Belgian blues here every 5th calving you'd end up with a monster calf and a screwed up cow wasn't worth it

whelan2

No Belgian blues here anymore. Ai companies aren't going to calve them for you

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807172#Comment_120807172

The thinking that a extremely goood bull on a goat like cow to produce profitable a viable calf rather than a fair cow and a goodish/easy calved bull as was the case. And to be fair the latter is still majority.

K.G.

But here's the thing ,in breeding the progeny will range from being very close to one side to being 50/50.the trick is to be to pick the calves that closer to what you want.the same bull and the same cow will produce a massive range of calves over the years.you can see that in humans sher

Siamsa Sessions

The calf buyer and the calf seller both want better calves, but trying to compensate for an extreme cow by putting a BB straw in her is not going to work. It's just more of the official advice that the poster boys can have their cake AND eat it.

Maybe we'll see calving jacks included in the next TAMS?

The best stores I have here (bought as calves in 2022) are AA, LM, and HE. The smallest are BB, SIM, and Speckled Park. When I buy calves again, the fancy breeds will be a warning sign and I'll avoid them.

Once bitten, twice shy.

mr.stonewall

No calf buyer is going to expect a dairy farmer to be welded to a calving jack, dealing with downer cows after calving, and then throw the springtime routine into the mix, its all about finding a happy medium.

The only real way to solve it a 2 prong approach. Correcting issues with breeding will take 2-3 generations to resolve. There is no magic bullet.

1. The Cow Side

Breeding cows with a bit bigger pelvic width and a touch extra weight. This improves the weight of the prime cuts and makes calving easier. How do we achieve this. EBI needs tweaking. While the index has helped profitability, it has completely forgot about the calf output and the stature of the animal. A pat on the back is about 2 foot away from a kick in the backside

2. The Bull side.

More focus on carcase weight and confirmation, while still keeping an eye on the calving ease and gestation length. This is the work that has to be done by the pedigree societies and pedigree breeders.

Mix the above 2 together in a straw or bull and you are on the road to improving.

On a side note, I struggle to see why the ICBF are not looking at the metric of weight with dairy cows, even 20% of the herd annually. It's the key one with SCEP and dairy welfare schemes

Anto_Meath

@jaymla627 I understand that, but the cost of running JEx cows in a dairy herd is they either use a bull that will produce a viable beef animal that will achieve €150 - €200 as a 2 - 3 week old calf . Capable of a € 1,400 - €1,600 beef carcass.

Or they use a traditional easy calving bull that will produce a calf that is worth €5 or less as a 2 -3 week old animal. Capable of a €1,000 - €1,200 beef carcass.

The first animal will leave a small profit for a calf to beef finisher. The second animal will cost them money.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807584#Comment_120807584

Carcase weight is beef farmers litres in the tank. Grading is our solids, and the grid is A+B-C

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807580#Comment_120807580

They haven't looked at dairy cow weight and confirmation because the icbf and teagasc have made a 20 year long effort to drive down the size of irish cows though ebi, its not even going to be contemplated by them to increase cow size as it fundamentally goes against their ethos, when you see the lengths they go to purposely penalise internatinal holstein genetics it's plain to see they've used the carbon sub index to knock another 20-30 euro of these bulls while the Irish bred lads are scoring cricket score plus number

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807580#Comment_120807580

I’ve calved Charolais …limos …simental as well as aa and he ….rarely an issue ….one c section that was a fr calf mother had twisted womb …..feeding in dry period and transition is key ……dairy farmers have to give a bit too has to be more about it than short gestation and calf out gap soon as

Anto_Meath

@Siamsa Sessions I agree with you a good AA, He or Lm from good square Ho or Br FR cow. They make the best dairy beef animals & they are what I like to buy. With me these type of cattle will grow into a decent animal coming into around €1,600 at slaughter as a bullock under 30 months on grass / silage only after their first winter.

But these type of calves are getting harder to source with the current breeding in the dairy herds. There is a local farmer / friend here I used to buy some of these calves from, went to his yard this spring to look at AAx calves. 15 bull calves & 12 of them had JEx breeding in them. He wasn't impressed when all I wanted were the other 3. We didn't deal and I don't think we will be dealing in the near future again, but we are still friends. He went to the Mart with them all, got between €30 -€175 each.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807861#Comment_120807861

I've noticed over the last 5 years that more of the dairy farmers that we used to buy calves from directly introduced JE and Kiwi FR into their herds. Unfortunately the majority of resulting calves are not what most farmers want and therefore we don't buy from them anymore.

Siamsa Sessions

Anyone on here buy calves in the autumn? I mean from autumn-calving herds?

I'm thinking of buying a few this year and wondering if anyone has experience of it. Are they hard to find? Expensive? All from Holstein cows? etc.

Thanks.

Anto_Meath

@Siamsa Sessions my brother does it with about 15, usually all Fr as that's all that is available end or September start October. They are on milk until December and then out to a sheltered paddock sometime in February. There is more work with them, more feeding / straw into the shed as they are in longer. But they thrive well when they hit good grass in April & he generally manages to get them killed at 24 months. He would have trouble with frozen water and the like plus carrying buckets of milk on frozen yards is no fun.

I remember in 2010 when the hard frost hit, he did have a lot of trouble with sick calves due to the very cold temperatures but that was a one off.

He picks them up from 2 / 3 farmers that do winter milk. Anywhere between €80 - €120 each.

148multi

I do some here, both bought in calves and suckler. If you can make good dry silage and out to grass early, you won't know them when may comes.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807722#Comment_120807722

Agree on the feeding and well done on adding beef value to your calves. The farmer knows their cows the best and what can work. If you are working on it that way, you will start to build up customers who will do repeat business annually. These are vital links

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807705#Comment_120807705

Where I was coming from was even the potential to add 20kg the national average, would have the potential to add approx 10kg carcase weight to calves. This could be the difference for many to move to profit when couple with a better quality beef bull suitable for the dairy herd. For the ICBF they need to urgently see the wood from the trees, sorry calves from the cows

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810956#Comment_120810956

Way things are going now relationship with calf rearer /purchaser is crucial…we need to listen to what they want in a calf and go from there having regular customers who will take calves going to be more important than what we get ….like to think we could break even on our end

smallbeef

There is an issue with calves that literally cost more to rear than their beef value but I look at this another way. What if all the dairy beef calves were good quality, able to achieve say 330kg DW minimum at 30 months. That's a lot of extra tonnage of beef for Larry to lick his lips, the base price will naturally be on the floor and we'll be no better off. The unsaleable calf is a dairy issue they need to sort out. Our main issues revolve around the lack of competition and transparency in our processors.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120811202#Comment_120811202

Changes in dero will sort that one

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808162#Comment_120808162

The advantage of buying autumn born calves is by the time April comes they are strong enough to jet off and they can utilise grass. With decent/good quality grass they probably need no supplementation after that.

The Friesians will be the earliest of them and can be 6 months hitting grass the first season. 350+kgs is achievable at 12-14 months( housing )because they will have a long grazing season which makes 600 kg and slaughter a target at 24 months

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120811230#Comment_120811230

Thanks. Selling at 24 months would be the target. First winter in the shed as calves, second winter out on rape, and then gone before before the third winter.

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120811202#Comment_120811202

Kill the traditional heifers at 21 months at 250 kg dw. Believe it or not, It’s not the wee angus that’s the problem.

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806874#Comment_120806874

What would you do if lads weren’t standing around the ring in mart.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120811270#Comment_120811270

They might be a tad heavy for being outside on rape. They would eat some amount of it.

Another issue is they will be HO bullocks and many will be large framed. Autumn price can be poor and take 30c/ kg off that base. At 4.5 base you would be getting 4.2/ kg you would be looking at 1200 euro for a 285 kg carcasse.

For slaughter in mid October to mid November 8 weeks on ration at 4-5 kgs / day. They would eat 250 kgs . You would definitely need a cereal based ration, maize/ barley/ hulls as anything else and they will only grow.

One other issue as usually autumn born calves are not cheap

148multi

Would the second winter on rape leave them with very big frames for finishing.

Siamsa Sessions

Thanks again for the insights.

If I can source decent calves at what I think is an OK price, given the €900-1000 it costs to rear and finish an animal, then I'll buy 15-20 of them in the autumn.

Another scenario is where I do go milking cows in 2025 and this year's autumn calves are sold off the rape in Feb/March 2025, somewhere between 350-450kg.

Isn't it a pity someone wouldn't invent a crystal ball 😀

Castlekeeper

Just cleaning out an old drawer at my parents and I see where in 1998, we sold FR bullocks for c. £500, cull cows for c.£350, factory prices, but month old calves from £70-360.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863976#Comment_120863976

Bull calves has magic ball's at the time the carried was it 520 euro in them