Phoenix Park Tunnel at weekends

GerardKeating

I think i know the answer to this, but do any trains use the Phoenix Park Tunnel at weekends. Cannot see anything in the timetables online?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058270424/phoenix-park-tunnel-at-weekends

No. Lack of drivers is the main issue.

There may be freight or operational movements but no passenger ones.

andrewfaulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833311#Comment_119833311

There is a Saturday down liner to Ballina.. Normally there are a few LE moves, and stock transfers if the RPSI are running trains(last weekend and every weekend in December)

GerardKeating

A question,

If I book a Galway to Connolly ticket, the "suggested" transfer is Luas, but would I be allow, with a Galway-Connolly ticket, to change at Kildare/NewBridhe and get the train around to Connolly?

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848560#Comment_119848560

The tunnel has been opened to services for six years now ...this is not the reason for lack of weekend services given it only takes a few months to recruit new personnel.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852064#Comment_119852064

A few months????

It takes a minimum of a full year to pass out a train driver.

You clearly have no idea of how skilled that job is.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852162#Comment_119852162

So in that case what have they been doing for the other five years? I get it, lack of drivers is a problem now, but that's not the reason for lack of services on PPT.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852859#Comment_119852859

I’ve answered that before twice in replies to your posts, once in the IE timetable thread on 1st November and reposted in the BusConnects Network thread this morning.

And it is the reason for the lack of weekend services.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852162#Comment_119852162

Not to mention the length of time it takes to even recruit drivers ahead of training.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852859#Comment_119852859

It is, and still is it seems (source)

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119853025#Comment_119853025

I'm sorry but AngryLips is right about the absurdity that the reason for NO weekend service is lack of drivers after 6 years. There is massive demand for a weekend service (commuters and leisure travellers) but there are 'commercial' reasons why different vested interests do not want the PPT to become something like a DART Interconnector (lite), the same ones that have been quietly resistant to that project because of the huge change it would mean to the exclusivity of Dublin.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974296#Comment_119974296

If you read my detailed reply explaining why there is a driver shortage you’d understand that it is the reason for the lack of weekend PPT services.

The NTA specify what service patterns are to operate these days and not Irish Rail.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974296#Comment_119974296

What do you mean by the exclusivity of Dublin?

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975879#Comment_119975879

Look at the recent comments for those extolling the vituese of the next phases of the western rail corridor. The main theme is how much cheaper it is compared to the Dublin Metro.

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974296#Comment_119974296

Do you remember years ago when a lobby group first put forward the idea of trains from Kildare though the PPT and into GCD? The excuses were astounding. CIE said the tunnel was too narrow for comunter trains and there was no demand. Irish Rail were playing the same games back then.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975879#Comment_119975879

All that the Capital has to offer in terms of housing, work, leisure, education, health services etc., is effectively out of reach to a sizeable proportion of the population and this is not just to those outside of county Dublin but to many within it to a lesser degree. This exclusivity is maintained by a deliberately badly run public transport system. It's interesting that the jewel in the crown of rail lines is the DART, serving the most affluent areas of the city and adding to that affluence. It is easy to see why opening other corridors, which the PPT could, would shift the balance in terms of access and have a consequent wealth effect. There are many vested interests who know that property (housing and hotels) value is somewhat of a zero sum game nationally and any re-balancing would see them lose out.

I live in a well-served, transport wise, part of Dublin so have no axe to grind. I believe people are very naive if they don't understand the policies of the real power brokers but they are very badly served by politicians. Catherine Murphy of the SDs is the only politician in the last 10 years who meekly questioned why the Interconnector has been shelved given the obvious implication it would have for mass transport into Dublin.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974860#Comment_119974860

You could post a link but I have found it anyway. You "believe" some trained up drivers decided they didn't like the work and decided to leave. You treat us to something from the Irish Rail excuse mill. Tell me what you think would happen if the NTA ordered that the Kildare route would be 24/7 through the PPT and Irish Rail said- fine we'll just have to move drivers off the DART and Northern line? I believe trained up drivers would magically appear since affected politicians would make sure of it.

I wouldn't hold my breath that the NTA would do anything remotely like I suggest and bring massive improvements to public transport. That's not their job!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983038#Comment_119983038

I’m not in the habit of posting dud info here.

if you don’t want to believe it, that’s up to you. But I will stand by the substance of my post. They are still significantly behind where they ought to be in terms of drivers nationwide.

Train operating companies in GB are suffering exactly the same driver shortages caused by the ban on in-cab training during Covid. IE was just unfortunate to also have had a previous CEO who dug his heels in for several years in a dispute with the unions, which meant no in-cab training happened during that period either.

I find it rather amusing these days that when people are presented with explanations that they don’t like, that they choose to just make up stuff to believe.

New drivers take over a year to pass out, and no amount of political pressure will change that. They just need to increase the numbers being passed out.

DART+ SW will see a large increase in PPT services regardless all week long.

AngryLips

I'm sorry LX, but the suggestion that there have been expanded services through PPT for six years due to driver shortages that entire time is not a credible one. Like you said, it doesn't take six years to train up new drivers.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983727#Comment_119983727

You seem to just have a complete blank spot on this. For the fourth time, there was a union ban on in-cab training for about 18 months to two years in a dispute with the previous CEO, which meant no new drivers could complete their training until after he left, and a deal was reached with the new CEO. Then Covid restrictions meant no in-cab training during most of 2020. During both periods drivers left, which meant that many new drivers passing out were replacements rather than additional.

All that being said, there have been expanded services through the PPT though - the weekday service was increased in August 2019, with the introduction of an all day service through the tunnel. That would have been viewed as the greater priority, and correctly so in my view.

In the new timetable introduced today there are increased service levels across the network, but they are happening in small increments and the reason for that is quite simply that they don't have the resources to do it any faster (be they drivers or rolling stock).

I suspect service level increases will continue to be in smaller increments than you or I would want until there are sufficient additional drivers passed out (as opposed to replacements).

It is quite clear that the NTA want to see service levels increase on all lines, but that is going to take time. The first of the new rolling stock won't be commissioned until later next year, which will start to allow ICR sets be reformed in size.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983384#Comment_119983384

As MyLove4Satan put it, the excuses out of IR are astounding. I wasn't surprised you didn't consider the hypothetical case I proposed because for whatever reason you are trumpeting the indefensible company line. Why not consider this; A lot has been made of reductions in DART train regularity to 10 or 15 minute frequency but why is that line such high priority when there is a population explosion in west Dublin and into Kildare and the only limit to expanding services a lack of drivers supposedly. Leave DART regularity at 20 or 30 minutes and redeploy drivers to where they're needed. It's only fair, no?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984079#Comment_119984079

I have no professional connection with Irish Rail whatsoever, so please don't insinuate that.

I just happen to have a very deep interest in public transport operations, and have built up knowledge as a result from a variety of sources and contacts.

The 10-minute DART was the brainchild of the previous CEO and I don't think that he had any political affiliations or influences here given he was British. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, as I tend to find most operational decisions are made for much simpler reasons, such as in this case there being sufficient DART drivers and rolling stock available, and that the NTA could fund it. It was something that could be implemented relatively quickly.

It also involved far fewer conflicting moves than the Western or Southwestern lines would and little or no additional infrastructure. You can’t really do it on those lines without Glasnevin Station being in place and much increased use of Docklands station.

Redeploying the DART drivers elsewhere would mean that they would have to be trained on the different traction (ICRs and 29k sets) and then would have to spend considerable time learning the new routes that they would be driving. They would not have any knowledge of the other routes as they only drive the DART line.

We are seeing the DART+ programme go through the planning process as we speak, and the new depot will be constructed between Maynooth and Kilcock. That programme will then deliver the same off-peak frequencies on the Western and Southwestern lines as the current DART line.

LXFlyer

For the record I don’t disagree that there was historical political interference in terms of service provision over the years at all.

But with retirement of John Lynch as executive chairman, and more importantly the ongoing switch of decision making from Irish Rail to the NTA in terms of funding for investment and service provision, a clear transport investment strategy, and the new PSO contract between IE and the NTA, the situation has changed significantly.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984248#Comment_119984248

Just as we saw the Interconnector and Metro go through the planning process almost 20 years ago? There's been talk of DART+ for more than ten years now but not one single stanchion has been laid in concrete yet. I won't hold my breath. Those plans will find a shelf. In fact the Maynooth element would appear to offer little extra by way of service improvement but is given priority over the Kildare line which has obviously huge potential. The Interconnector has been the acknowledged game changer amongst railway professionals for 50 years but is being curiously ignored. It all comes back to my original point that there are vested interests actively derailing mass public transport projects.

This is the country we live in, poor transport, poor health services but subsidised housing and social welfare. Keeping people of limited means in their place and using money from car owners as an exchequer pillar. Most European countries follow an opposite policy where the onus is on the citizen to house and feed themselves although with the means to do it i.e. proper public services. We are more American and our "windfall" corporation tax makes it appear as if we have been visionary. Yet emigration looks to be as dependable a Government means of coping as ever. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider what effect the Interconnector would have had on the housing crises given all the empty space there is along the Mainline. Commuting students, workers, daytrippers and nightowls? The bottom would fall out of Dublin property development. Can't have that!

"I don't think that he had any political affiliations or influences here given he was British."?? Let's just say that any Government that appoints an 'external consultant' doesn't want someone with contrarian ideas.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984360#Comment_119984360

"Things will have to change if we want them to remain the same". We now have the NTA as a shop front for the Dept. of Transport but the real power lies with that Department the same as it always did and the Minister is as responsible as ever. There are now multi-annual contracts between the NTA and the transport companies where a layer of bureaucracy has been inserted that ostensibly delivers efficiencies to the maintenance of services but in reality means that all budgets are exaggerated long before they're needed in case the money doesn't materialise and blame can then be laid for service failure. The Dept. and the Government make transport policy and they have been fairly consistent in not delivering anything worthwhile since long before John Lynch came on the scene.

It's notable how Minister Eamonn Ryan is happy to talk up new rail projects in Moyross or Midleton but is deafeningly quiet about the real work in Dublin that would have implications for the vast majority of people in the country.

Citizen Six

..

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984079#Comment_119984079

Surely Irish Rail work off a budget they get from the NTA? And they don't get a bottomless amount of cash.

As mentioned already, it takes time to train drivers. Maybe they need to increase the number of trainers and facilities for training them.

They've ordered trains anyway, which will take time. At least the ICRs are coming in now, and being prepped for service.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984512#Comment_119984512

Dart+ trains have already been ordered, haven't they? And they have a pretty big facility recently built in Inchicore for the project.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984738#Comment_119984738

Electric Trains have been ordered. Yes. The DART fleet is on its last legs,falling apart. Go figure!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984738#Comment_119984738

Two batches of DART BEMU trains have now been ordered.

Just to correct you, the maintenance facility for the new DART trains is yet to be built, but it is part of the DART+ West project and will be located west of Maynooth.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984738#Comment_119984738

To be clear, they have built some offices in Inchicore for people working on the project, in what looks like a large prefabricated building. They haven't built any 'facility'. This word gives the impression that there is something dedicated to heavy engineering which couldn't be further from the truth.

This building isn't too far from where the 'facility' for the DART Interconnector was located 14 years ago.