Inherited farm lease query

Malbcull22

Hi,

We recently inherited a farm from my mother(she made no will).There are five siblings,and one of our brothers has moved his cattle onto this farm for grazing etc.There was no prior discussion about this,as the rest of us want to the sell the farm.We have asked our brother to cease farming on this land but to no effect.So my question is can we put some sort of lease agreement in place with our brother,until we decide what to do re sale etc.?Probate will take a while yet,so I don't know what actions we can take.Any advise would be appreciated.

StevenToast

Get him to buy ye out....

Malbcull22

Hi,unfortunately that will not be happening.The person in question believes he has an automatic right to occupy the property,soley down to the fact he has a share in it.He refuses to accept we are going to sell,but our problem now is that he will not vacate the lands in question.It's more complicated than I would like,but I just don't know our best option is now..

StevenToast

Sounds like a prìck, unfortunate your mother didnt sort out the will.....

You just have to all sit down and trash it out....let him know ye are entitled to your share also....

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058270327/inherited-farm-lease-query

Who was working the farm prior to your mother's sad passing?

Malbcull22

Hi,there was a verbal agreement between my father and brother,that he could continue to farm on the land.There was no lease or anything in place.I'm hoping to work out it out between us,but it's difficult.Anyway,until probate is granted,I think we're status quo for now.We'll just to wait and see how it works out.

elperello

Consult a solicitor.

Malbcull22

Spoke to solicitor today,we'll have to wait until probate is granted,and only after that,can we demand that the lands are vacated.It should be early in the New Year,depending on how quick the probate is sorted.

phildub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119834140#Comment_119834140

So he was farming the land before the death of your mother? From your original post it sounded like she died and he just put cows on the land.

In another post you said he thinks he has an automatic right. Probate hasn't issued and he had permission from title holders so he does have a right. Once probate issues he will own a share and he will still have a right.

Also you seem to think once probate issues that will sort everything out. You should speak to your solicitor about the law of equity. He might be fully entitled to remain on the land.

Malbcull22

Hi,i probably was not clear in my first post.Both my parents are now deceased.The main issue here is that my brother has not consulted,or asked pemission to farm on this land.We want to preserve it so that is suitable for sale next year.Our solicitor advised that when probate is granted,we can go ahead and put the lands up for sale,our brother says he'll contest it so will have to wait and see.

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119836585#Comment_119836585

On what basis will he contest ? Perhaps point out its divided between the family he buy it at auction. If he contests by court tell him all costs will borne by him. Therefore if he loses and it looks like he would the costs could be considerable.

AnRothar

You mention that your brother had a verbal agreement with your father regarding his use of the land.

Did your father predeceased your mother?

Did your father have a will?

The answer to these questions will be important.

Malbcull22

Hi,

My brother had a verbal agreement with my father that he work this farm;my mother owned it,and he did not pay any rent or anything like that for the use of it.

My mother died,without making a will.Shortly afterwards,my father died,and my mother's estate had not been sorted out etc.At that stage,there were no animals on the farm.

My brother then proceeded to move cattle again onto the farm in question,and carry out work on it.We did not grant permission for this,as we want to sell the farm next year.

We want the farm vacated,as it will cost us more money in the long run,reseeding fields etc.Our solicitor has now told me that this will not happen,until probate is completed.

We're hoping that our brother will not contest it,as I din't think he'll want to be out of pocket etc.so we'll wait and see how things work out in the new year.

.

Claw Hammer

You should ensure that you keep all communications going through your solicitor. Your objections to your brother behaviour should be communicated through your silicitor so that there is a proper record.

Malbcull22

I'm doing that at least,I've made our solicitor aware of the situation at present,so I can be sure that I'm doing all I can to proceed matters as intended.

AnRothar

OK, your mother died without a will do rules of intestate will apply to her estate.

I assume that they were married.

Your father subsequently passed.

Did your father leave a will?

Malbcull22

Yes,as my mother didn't make a will,the farm in question,passes to her children(5 of us).My father made a will,the same brother I previously mentioned,inherited both family and farm,straight forward enough

Malbcull22

Sorry,typo on the last comment,my brother also inherited the family home and farm.

rock22

Would your father not have inherited 2/3rds from your mother if she made no will? Chidren would be entitles=d to 1/3 of mothers estate.

If I read it correctly, this brother then inherited 2/3rd of farm from your father?

XsApollo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119838513#Comment_119838513

Doesn’t 2/3 of your mothers assets not pass on to your father? So the farm doesn’t pass on to the 5 children? 1/3 will pass on. Which is then 4/5ths of a third then considering your brother inherited the other 2/3s?

sounds like you are contesting and expecting your brother to sell the farm? When according to yourself he now owns most of it?

The father might not have addressed the mother's land in his will, if he died soon after his wife.

The father's will might only address explicitly the home house and farm, not the additional land.

It sounds like a mess and I doubt the brother will sign a lease on land he believes is his.

blackbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119838678#Comment_119838678

This appears to be an accurate summation to me.

The original post was misleading as it implied that the father died first.

Furze99

Can't see this being straightforward at all. Farm, land & buildings in your mother's name. Presumably your father 'married in' as they say? How many years were they married, living & farming here. Was your father mainly working the farm all this time? What money was invested in it and where did it come from? Does anyone know what your mother's views were on who should take over the farm eventually? How much work did your brother do on the farm to help over the years? How much did other siblings contribute? These will be all be factors to greater or lesser extents. That your father survived your mother and left a will is important.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119838758#Comment_119838758

There are two separate farms by the sounds of it. A home farm held by the father and additional land held by the mother.

Malbcull22

Hi,yes,sorry If I was not clear on the ownership of my mother's farm.It's a separate farm from my father's,and as she didn't make a will,it passes to each of us.Probate had not started on her estate before my Dad died,so my brother did not inherit it.

Malbcull22

And to add to that,my father did not address the issue of my mother's farm in his will.

cute geoge

What will happen when ye put mothers farm up for sale and your brother splashes 'no sale family farm 'up on the entrance.Was yer brother working the mothers farm with the home farm .This is some mess and strange your mother had no will .The best ye can hope for would be make a deal with brother to let him keep more then his share and then sell the rest .Highly unlikely he is going to let his share been sold and proper order too!!

Malbcull22

No,we are trying to deal with him,to work out a fair solution in the event of selling the farm.Like all of these matters,it should have been addressed when my mother was alive.I wasn't even aware she had made no will,so I knew we'd have problems down the line.

phildub

If your mother predeceased your father 2/3 of her estate passed automatically to your father and will now make up the residue of the fathers estate. The other 3rd will be split between the children.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119838810#Comment_119838810

Fair dues to you for figuring this out. Without wishing to be disrespectful of the person enquiring, this is clearly quite a complicated set of circumstances, though not entirely unusual when it comes to land, family farms and inheritances. But hoping for useful advice when all the basic facts are not explained initially is not very productive.

Malbcull22

Phildub,this is a point I'm unsure about.When my father passed,nothing had been done re my mother's estate.

phildub

Yes but it's automatic, your mothers probate should be done first and then your fathers. He was alive when your mother passed so his estate is entitled to his share of her assets.

AnRothar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119840664#Comment_119840664

Your mother predeceased your father.

Her estate must be resolved first.

This includes inheritance due to your father from your mother under law.

Only then you can commence the distribution of your father's estate as per his will.

Malbcull22

Thanks Phildub,for clarication on this point

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119840664#Comment_119840664

The fact that probate hadn't been completed on your mother's estate doesn't alter the fact that your father was entitled to 2/3 of her estate as she died intestate. You seem to be under the impression that her estate can now be distributed with no reference to the father i.e. her farm will be inherited by the four children because the your father is now dead. It doesn't work like that.

Poster phildub has explained how it works in post #29 above. On the disposal of your mother's estate, the four children are entitled to 1/12 each and the remaining 2/3 of her estate will form part of your father's estate. To be disposed of according to his will. But you've told us that the mother's farm was not mentioned in his will. That means it falls into the residue of his estate - was that mentioned in his will? If not, it will be disposed of as if he died intestate and each of you would get 1/4 each of the 2/3 of the farm which your father inherited by her intestacy. Along with the 1/12 you each inherited direct from her estate, that would leave each of you with 1/4 of her farm.

But if the father left the residue of his estate to your brother, he would inherit all of the 2/3 of your mother's farm which was inherited by your father and the other three siblings (incl. you) would be left with 1/12 of the farm each. He would have the 1/12 he inherited direct from the mother, along with the 2/3 bequeathed to him by your father so he would end up with 9/12 or 3/4 of the mother's farm.

Malbcull22

Thanks Coylemj for your reply.This now makes sense to me;.I will get back later with an update

endacl

Paging John B Keane…

Malbcull22

In reply to your comment Coylemj,I can confirm that my father made no mention of my mother's farm in his will.He did leave his farm and house to my brother(previously mentioned in post).However,my father did specify that the residue and remainder of his estate be divided amongst the rest of us(4 children).We are hoping to sell my mother's farm in the long term,how will the proceeds of sale then be divided amongst the 5 of us?The legal advice I've got so far,did not refer to my mother's estate,forming part of my Dad's estate,after her death.

Rusheseverywhere

Farmer here and first of sorry that you have all this to go through on top of your parents' deaths. As said my understanding is that two thirds of your mother's estate went to your father on her death automatically. IMO opinion your brother is in a strong position your father owned 2 thirds of this farm ie your mother's land after she died, you said he told your brother to farm it and he did. There is alot been left out as who was insuring it, fencing it etc.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/business-management/succession/analysis-supreme-court-rules-on-disinherited-sons-claim-to-farm

Malbcull22

With regards work been carried out on my mother's farm,my brother would have fenced off fields etc.We recently took out public libility insurance on the land as there was none in place after my Dad died.I know my brother probably has a strong case with regards ownership etc.,but he's not very cooperative,and it makes any kind of dealings with him very difficult.

coylemj

OP, if your father left the residue of his estate to the four of you then it means that your mother's farm will be divided four ways so you will each end up with 1/4.

To be precise, you as an individual will inherit 1/12 direct from your mother's estate (1/4 of 1/3) and 1/6 from your father's estate (1/4 of 2/3). Which adds up to 1/4 (1/12 + 2/12 = 3/12 = 1/4).

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119847271#Comment_119847271

No. there is 5 siblings so the first 1/3 is split 5 ways. Then the residual 4 ways.

Rusheseverywhere

Try some sort of a family chat.Farming is tough and little out of it he may feel aggrieved that he slogged away at home and then sisters/brother arrive looking to take farm and get money. The other side is it is very unfair with farms that to keep them viable one person gets all and the rest get the door. Solicitors eat into the value of land like this once a dispute starts and it can destroy families. Probate on your father and then for your mother will be expensive and once any kind of a dispute they will ream it on probate alone.

I paid for the farm I have 2 per cent of the farm value which worked out at €20k for straightforward probate with a will and that was just for probate not include putting land into my name. Figure out what land worth I say average price of 7k an acre depend where etc etc but land is gone back this year from what I see as farming is not making money. Then figure out what it worth to you as your share if no dispute then factor in legal fees etc. Also probate took nearly 2 years for me solicitors are so slow particularly with land as they know they have their fees as the land is there to pay them.

I hope you resolve this but as said try if at all to resolve it yourselves as a family.

Gone With the Wind said it all on Irish attitudes to land "Do you mean to tell me, Katie Scarlett O’Hara, that Tara, that land, doesn’t mean anything to you? Why, land is the only thing in the world worth workin’ for, worth fightin’ for, worth dyin’ for, because it’s the only thing that lasts.”

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119847304#Comment_119847304

Sorry, you are correct. I saw a mention of 'four children' but that was a reference to the bequest of the residue of the father's estate. Which apparently excluded the brother who got the house and the father's farm.

So I figure that that brother is only entitled to 1/15 of the mother's farm, that being the share he inherited from his mother under the rules of intestacy. The 2/3 of the mother's farm which went to the father were (apparently unknowingly) bequeathed by him to the other four children. So each of the four will end up with 7/30 (1/6 + 1/15) or just under a quarter (23.33%) of the mother's farm.

893bet

It’s a night mare. Fact he owns so little means he will unlikely be able to buy it out.

Malbcull22

Thanks for all the info on my post,definitely helped and cleared up a couple of points.