Are there bad employees ?

Hi,

I am going to start this post by saying:

I am a Mid-Senior manager in a Semi-state. I have a team of around 50 who report to me, of which probably 90% would run through a wall for you to get a job done. We have no bonus or pay related way to incentivise these staff so really the only thing they get is a thanks from me and knowing they are doing a good job. Those that I know go the hard yards will get the same from me, and flexibility where I can, within my power.

I personally would like to think I am an Ok manager and leader. I work hard, do the jobs no one else wants to do and will push the team where I can to make things better. I took over a service in the past which was in a full continuance review and turned things around, with the team. I should point out that I inherited my team outside of 4 new hires and a list of problems with the existing team

This brings me to my current post reason. I have around 10% of the team who wont work, no matter what. Micro manage, marco hands off manages, set goals, leave them set own goals, training, mentorship etc. I am a voracious reader of online articles and books around leadership, pitfalls, how to lead, motivate etc. One area in the onine sphere I constantly find is that everything seems to fall back to the manager.

Ask staff to do a job, they dont do it and when you ask for reasons they blame everything except themselves. Quiet Quitting is a new one I have read about. Of the 10% I have issue with I have now been subject to a list of issues from them, emails which get short quickly, asking for things to be done by deadlines and when not done I link in HR, things of this nature.

Now I will admit, I am not a saint. I like things to be done, done well ( where the person has the ability) and to keep pushing for our end users. I will work with someone once they have an interest in the job and have taken risks on staff in the past in new roles, etc to support them ( have worked out).

My overall question, when does it stop being the managers fault? To quote Jim Collins , " get the right people on the bus"

greyday

15% deadwood is usual, 10%. is doing well.

Xander10

Yes

End of thread.......

oceanman

you are doing very well at 10% be thankfull.

gameoverdude

You sound a bit like me. Working the whole long weekend (eejit that I am).

But I have a good boss and when things calm down I'll tell them I'm taking the next two days off. All give and take with me.

All you can do is be seen to get your hands dirty when going gets tough and if the lads need you, be there.

As above 10% is good.

kathysmithh

sure there are

Larbre34

Forget the books and articles, they are of no value to you. And certainly pay no attention to absolute bullsh1t notions about quiet quitting. Hasn't anyone heard of noisy firing?

You already know what is needed.

If you are in a Semi-State, I'm right in assuming you have a mandatory performance management system.

Your responsibility, which I'm sure you've already done, is to prepare a Departmental work plan for the year that directly relates to whatever Corporate Business Plan exists.

In turn, it is your responsibility to set ambitious but realistic goals down the line to your supervisors and staff, which feed back into the high level goals. They need to be clearly communicated and coached and introduced in a constructive approach.

Most of your staff will meet and exceed these and will be constructive in how their work can contribute in a better way to the high level goals. No problem, no bother, give them ownership and let them work away.

As for the ones who fail to adequately engage, or fail to hit these reasonable targets, they need clear warning and ultimately sanction, whether thats loss of increments, loss of working hour flexibility, job sharing, flexi-time, study support etc etc.

The issue is not the 10%. The issue is demonstrating clearly to the 90% that they are not in fact mugs for working diligently. Have faith that they are on your side and brief your own managers up the line so that they will support your process too.

Yes. One particular "colleague" managed to literally hack his "stats" so successfully that he got chosen to travel abroad to mentor the outsource team when that was happened. He got a nice holiday out of it. 15 years ago.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815628#Comment_119815628

Honesty doesn't pay apparently.

At op. Exude the virtues of the good ones. Try and sideline the crap ones, where they can do least harm(we got you a Netflix subscription) ...in a smart way.

BrianD3

You sound like a good manager. The fact that 90% will go through a wall for you and that you've been interested enough to read about management pitfalls to avoid is a very good sign.

Bad managers and bad staff is a chicken and egg scenario. If a manager says that most or all of his staff are useless, there's almost always more to it than that.

A change of management where a "bad" manager is brought in can result in previously "good" staff turning "bad" pretty quickly. If the bad manager is then replaced with a good one, it's difficult to get the previously good, now bad, staff back to being good.

If the good manager is constant and the staff change (not due to the manager, due to retirement etc.), if the manager has any say in the hiring of replacements, he probably won't find himself in a situation where he is lumbered with bad staff. Whereas a bad manager will often end up hiring bad staff.

banie01

Yes, some employees are coasters and you will find that within every group. I'd hazard that even within the portion of your team that is performing? That the old Pareto chestnut of 80% of your "best" work is performed by 20% of your team.

In private enterprise, 15% of your direct reports are expected to be below expected targets. It's borne out in copious management, HR and psychology reports and research.

There isn't a whole lot you can do about that and from reading your OP? You have tried everything reasonable. There comes a point with employees such as the ones you are having issue with, would in private enterprise at least. Be managed out of the organisation. Be that via PIP and disciplinary intervention or other means. Likely not paths available to you in a semi-state.

It is an awkward situation and one that if not handled well? Can quickly lead to resentment among your better staff, when the high performers are subject to the same rewards and lack of incentive as the low performers.

Mrs OBumble

You shod be getting coaching from your own manager about how the company wants the low performers handled.

In a semi-state, the company may well be happy for them to coast. In a genuine for profit company, they would be encouraged to find a job which is a better fit with their aspirations.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815735#Comment_119815735

I don't agree that there is such a strict delineation between semi-state/state and the private sector in this respect.

Many for-profit corporations are inefficient, bloated entities that wouldn't be out of place in the Soviet Union and anyway they must bend to reams of government regulation. In many cases they are like carbon copies of some government department.

If you think people aren't coasting by in these "competitive" businesses you've been had. In the case of some corporations 99% of their "business" consists of government contracts and the whole operation is like a disguised dole.

A guy I worked with in one private corporation could barely read or write but was considered a 'good' employee, and personally praised by the CEO, because he made an effort and stayed out of trouble.

10-15% of people are useless in most/many spheres, live lives dependent on everyone else in spite of appearing to have no particular developmental issues. The ones with learned helplessness, maybe addiction issues, or perhaps otherwise live fairly distracted & chaotic lives. Some may perform in certain niche areas of special interest, but never in a mundane sort of job. They are the type of people who are carried by everyone else, and in public service where there’s not even a monetary incentive that might possibly motivate a cohort of these, they are like putting lead in the boot of the car and expecting it to move fast uphill. I’ve seen them at many levels.

Thanks for the replies, some very good ones.

One other issue which I am finding, and this may be the crux of my concerns. the 10% who are not performing are very well liked by around 50% of the staff, so one thing I have noticed in the last 2 years is the good ones complaining a lot more, and in some cases about issues they should not know about.

An example, KPIs for one service are, at previous request of staff, brought up at monthly meetings. I have heard back from some of the staff who I trust very much that the 10% are moaning to the other 90% about how unfair it is their performance is being brought up, how there is no reward for doing well, how unfair the place is, expectations etc. I can see all this is having an effect on morale, but as said the 10% are well liked by around half the staff, so this in turn in causing other negative effects.

As for PIP and manage out, the famous one is staff who go to a PIP go sick for 2-3 months, then blame stress for the sick leave, then come back to PIP being removed automatically.

Buddy Bubs

I manage a company with approx 130 employees, we have a few bad eggs who just don't like working and complain and moan about everything.

We have another few who just aren't that strong, lack confidence and take up others time to help them get over the line, in general I have no problem with this group once they try, they don't get paid big money.

We have 90 employees at least that are diligent and do what is expected of them.

We have about 10-15 that go above and beyond and keep the whole thing together, all on higher salaries as a result

One thing that became very apparent recently is how poor the selection is at the moment, we have had quite a few over the last year or so that didnt last even a few weeks, young guys with extremely poor attitude towards work and pretty much unemployable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818817#Comment_119818817

Hi,

That is an eye opener.

Are you public or private?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818817#Comment_119818817

These are similar in where I work too. Large MNC. Plenty of people in roles like mine in the company that don't bother their hole doing anything can get paid half my salary despite having the same job title. Anyone I've interviewed recently has joined and produced and got pay rises - if you just do the minimum you'll coast by until there are redundancies.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818829#Comment_119818829

Private sector. The above refers to a range of positions......admin, finance, sales, service technicians, manufacturing staff, warehouse

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818859#Comment_119818859

Yep even within each job type, we have people on different wages and salaries, this can cause a bit of discontent but if you produce, you get paid and we don't shy away from that.

Flinty997

There's always a few who do very little. If you are unable to reward people with remuneration, you can certainly reward them other flexibility, like wft or time in lieu at the managers discretion.

How are people measuring KPIs especially as related to PMDS or similar. Because you can have two similar projects and call one a success and the other on a failure with very effort.

Was looking at one bit work recently where people were complaining a person was taking ages to do some task. But when their manager was monitoring it went much faster. The implication was the worker was slacking off. In fact the manager had to complete some steps of the task, but when he wasn't around the work stopped. It was the manager that was the roadblock not the worker.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119823452#Comment_119823452

Note sure what you mean here? Had the worker not flagged with the manager they needed input for a roadblock? If so and teh manager was ignoring it, it's completely on the manager. But if it wasn't communicated to the manager that they needed help, then this is a resposnibilty of each individual worker in my view, especially with remote working - it's basic communication, and communication needs to be two way and proactive in communicating problems when there are blocks. Too often this doesn't happen, and the manager has to ask and ask, and follow-up - often getting ignored in the process. That's not the manager's fault - it's a shared responsibility.

Flinty997

Oh yes. It was was communicated ad nauseum.

Employees who have become "the cotton wool" and stop as much as they can any communication between different ranks of staff. They may say things like "Before contacting Mdrfrger Hyiuy in X Department, run it by ME first!" And the thing can go no further. In the bigger organisations. Irish and American companies.

Strumms

yes there are. But only one person can actively enable a bad employee… A bad manager.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119825105#Comment_119825105

Institutional road blocks due to organizational culture.

Flinty997

I was going to say sometimes you have people being pushing into roles they don't suite. Like a square peg into a round hole. Then the square peg get blamed.

That said the OP certainly sounded like they tried to make things work. But sometimes (rare enough I would say) some people just don't work out.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119825160#Comment_119825160

And unfortunately that culture is often the hardest to change. I've seen many examples of wholesale efforts to change processes and Comms paths all meet the implacable rock of culture within orgs and founder.

It's easy to blame culture, it's easy to say management could and should address and change it. It is an incredibly hard thing to do and even harder to maintain in my experience.

Flinty997

So true.

the_pen_turner

you sound like a good manager but have you actually talked to them about it

using BS terms like quiet quitting i very concerning . they are doing what they are paid to do and nothing more. nothing wrong with that. lots of people are happy to tread water and do an easy day for low money instead of more work for slightly more money ( or even the same money)

HazeDoll

I don't know if this counts as 'quiet quitting' but I have changed the way I work in the last eighteen months. It's possible that my superior now considers me part of the 10% of dead wood but that doesn't bother me at all. I don't at all think this makes me a bad employee.

I like my work - my actual work, the work for which my degree etc. prepared me. I don't particularly like my job. I have no interest in ascending the hallowed ladder to join management, partly because if I did that I would spend much less time doing the work I enjoy. I'm reasonably well paid, not particularly motivated by money.

I used to do all the extras, all the things that aren't part of the job description but are considered part of the job. Lots of unpaid overtime, or getting involved in somebody's madcap initiatives, or attending grim social occasions.

I had a revelation about six years ago, but it took me a while to see how I should apply it. There was a task I used to do that required late evenings and full weekends for about nine weeks. This used to come up every five years but started occurring every two years. I threw myself into it cheerfully enough, thinking my contribution was valued and it had to be done to a high standard and I couldn't let anybody down. Then I had an injury that was going to require surgery so I let them know well in advance that that year they'd need to find somebody else. That was fine, they asked around. Nobody else had the skills or experience or willingness to do what was required so they hired somebody.

He was paid thousands. He was paid slightly more than eight weeks of my salary, to do a job I used to do in nine weeks after work and at weekends for free. When the whole thing was over he got a special mention and voucher for a dinner somewhere fancy. I had only ever received quiet thanks from my superior. It's not that I want a round of applause and a posh dinner, but it was suddenly very clear that because I appeared to value my time and skills so cheaply, my superiors didn't value them at all. The chap they hired put a price on his time so his contribution was seen differently.

The next time the whole thing happened I was approached about getting on board. It took a lot of guts but I said no. No reasons, no excuses, no complaining, just no.

It had taken a while but I had realised that I had developed a pattern of prioritising the job. I had juggled family around, let friends down, all the usual symptoms that things are out of balance.

So I stopped. I do my actual work, probably better than I have done it in years, but that's it. A few occasions have occurred when it was gently pointed out to me that I must have forgotten to attend a 'voluntary' committee meeting, the sort of things I had thrown myself into in the past. When I said I just wasn't doing that sort of thing any more the reactions were varied. Some were genuinely put out, believing that my absence meant more work for them. Some were very supportive, subtly probing to see if I'm having any personal difficulties. My response was usually along the lines of "I know for certain that none of us will lie on our deathbed thankful that we never missed a 'pointless-vanity-project-run-by-somebody-I-don't-like' committee meeting."

Now my evenings are usually free because I've stopped bringing work home. I get more exercise, I get to see people, I get to bed earlier. My life is just better.

okiss

I was chatting to a business owner I know recently. They have a staff member who recently kicked off and threatened to go to X about something that happened. This was totally blown out of proportion. The same person has made numerous mistakes. They also have Y working with him for years. Y works nice hours, gets paid overtime ect. Then Y has been heard complaining that if they got a better offer they be gone. The business owner I know has told me that some staff just want a wage but will do as little as possible and whine when asked to do paid overtime but expect hours off at the drop of a hat. They have had to manage a few people out of the business because they caused nothing but problems.

Another friend of mine has taken on a management role in a company in the past 12 months. The business they work for are expanding at the moment. They told me that it is so hard to get good staff. A lot of people they know are saying the same and also that it's hard to retain good staff.

I have a friend who is currently in job. They have done a lot for their manager over the past few years. Due to personal circumstances my friend has stayed put in the job. Their manager has been quite happy to fob more of their jobs onto my friend and another co worker. My friend has decided in the new year to look for a new job. They said I had enough of doing more. My boss has no bit of given in them. They haven't even offered me and my co worker an hour off this past year despite us carrying the place between sickness, holidays and staff shortages.

I have worked in places that have good and bad staff. I have had good managers who can cut staff a bit of slack when they know that person is dealing with things outside work. A short while later that worker is back to their normal good worker status. I had managers who got places because of who they knew or because they were in the company X period of time. They have no management experience or don't ask for extra training to become a good manager.

The one thing I would say is that if you have someone who is doing the bare minimum get them aside and let them know what's expected. If they are not willing to ask for help, show interest ect I would look at managing them out. It shows that your not willing to let your other staff carry them. Also be aware that people have lives outside work and can't change their lives always to accommodate their job.

I never understood why people are so obsessed with the 10% who are not doing what they are supposed to do, what about concentrating on the 90% who are doing their job, the 10% who aren't doing their job tend to be unhappy and other staff tends to have little to do with them, say thanks for anything they do and then leave it at that.

An amount of the 10% think they are getting one over on management or something like that by not working, so by not engaging with them and thanking them for any work you will confuse them.

It's not laziness very few absolutely lazy people, its unhappiness in their job, feeling trapped by their job, chip-on-shoulder-type personality, to its depression or personality disorder, or some other mental health issue.

As you like all that management theory stuff, use it to mentor staff interested in their job.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828548#Comment_119828548

Hi,

Yes, talked at length to the whole team, then the smaller one to one session. Had a full engagement workshops, brought in new ways of looking at projects etc.

Did even speak to the 10% group to ask if they not happy, what else would they like to do, made changes based on these etc. Still nothing, things might change for 1-2 months but then the old pattern emerges.

To note, I would go above and beyond to celebrate the hard workers, extra days off, TOIL, etc. I was actually asked by one of the harder workers in a 1-1 meeting to stop thanking her so much as others were getting annoyed at it.

I was also given a formal complaint by one of the 10% for " unfair treatment for obviously preferential staff members" after he complained that I gave a day off to one staff member who was constantly going above and beyond, so HR asked me to give no more days off.

How are you giving random extra time off to staff in a semi-state? They tend to be unionised and very formal about work benefits, what do you want to do? You appeared to have tried everything and it hasn't worked. The next step is to start some sort of disciplinary approach would HR be happy with you doing that? and more importantly, would your manager be happy for you to do that?

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829851#Comment_119829851

Are ya having a laugh, very few lazy people my eye.

They are everywhere and the worst thing is they get away with it.

Cuddlesworth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119825171#Comment_119825171

Peter principal.

It can happen to anybody I guess. You get promoted to a "new" role, or take a new job, etc. Find yourself out of your depth and everything grinds to a halt until termination/redundancy.

If I was a manager and take this with a grain of salt because I am not a people person, I would try to find the job/workload that they can do effectively. This can depend on the person. Some might actually enjoy the very boring repetitive work that others despise, simply because its something that can do without thinking or having to worry about. Others might be just more social orientated, which would explain why they are both bad at their job but liked by their peers. I might get some hate saying this, but I have found those people are better off in project management roles, where its more about maintaining relationships between people then really "getting work done themselves".

But just straight up trying to get them to do their current job, when they won't or can't seems counterproductive. In private companies, larger ones at least, you put those staff to the side and use them as leverage to get the better staff promotions, pay rises and so on. Then when the redundancies come round, their names are at the top of the list and your better staff are left standing.

barneygumble99

You can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. I also work in a semi state company which is full of people who arse licked their way to the top. They didn’t have to work hard 40% of the time, they just needed to grease those cheeks, laugh at every single dumb joke and show an interest in their managers mundane life and their children’s mundane social lives. A company where the work is physical but you need to ‘work’ smarter not harder. I personally work hard and I’m a bit of a perfectionist but because I don’t grease holes and join in the conversation when the regional manager calls once a month, he can’t be bothered saying hello or asking how you’re getting on or saying well done on the regular high figures. I don’t give a fluck though because it’s more important to me to know I gave 100% when I was able to. My point basically is that no matter what you do there will always be employees who are useless but some people know how to hide it, yours don’t.

Strumms

The only way to deal with a person who is a bad employee is by allowing them to fail.

Not setting them up to fail….but allowing them to fail

i learned this the hard way… i and others ended up in a situation where we were were made babysit an individual, he was 60ish, just not keeping up with the changing dynamic of the workplace, newer more technologically advanced and efficient and accurate ways to do our jobs, new computer programs, smartphones and a PDA… couldn’t get his head around any of it…. Watching him was like watching a blind man trying to cook a beef stroganoff with one hand tied behind his back. Clueless.

we were told stuff like…

• you have to be patient
• You need to give him a dig out
• you have to consider he wasn’t brought up doing it this way. He is generation pen and paper..Leeway !
• he’s a lot older

etc…

if the daily reports were submitted 20 minutes after the deadline by any of us.. Strumms/Ronan/Caroline.. wtf happened ?

if Tony sent them 20 minutes late, fûcked up or both.. Strumms/Ronan/Caroline.. why didn’t you check how he was doing ? give him a dig out ? My answer… because I’m not his manager or babysitter.

one task / report he was just absolved for having to do because he took so long. Never disciplined and from an accidental discovery.. got positive annual performance review.

Bad employee meets bad manager and that’s the scenario.

bad employees for the most part exist because of bad management.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119839192#Comment_119839192

I agree that weak management allows non performing employees to remain a problem, but in a lot of cases the manager's hands are tied by: unions, weak upper management who don't want hassle or a problem themselves, HR who don't want any risk of litigation or bad PR, the risk of the employee going off on long-term sick leave due to stress, the risk of the employee spreading toxic behaviour and affecting morale among colleagues who are performing well, and the personal risk of facing a bullying complaint from the poor performer.

It's not that simple sometimes.

Everlong1

Can you fire these people? If not, what other meaningful sanctions are available to you ? If there's no negative consequences for lousy performance you're always going to get shysters who'll milk the system for all it's worth.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058269834/are-there-bad-employees

Employment is full of brilliant, average, poor and **** people. It’s life. A managers’s main role(s) apart from managing) is to encourage, motivate, direct and inspire those people they manage. And even the best managers at these tasks will be met with assholes challenging them.

HildaOgdenx

I once worked with someone who stands out in my mind as a bad employee. Very capable but lazy as sin. Strolled in late every day, left early and did as little as possible in the few hours she actually spent at her desk. Most of that time was spent on personal phone calls.

And she called in sick on a very regular basis, so because she only worked part time, week on, week off, she had lots of extra time off, with no requirement for a doctor's cert, to my knowledge.

I have long moved on from that particular workplace but I gathered from others who knew her for far longer than I did, that that was the pattern of her 'working' life. She would have had a series of managers over the years but continued to play the same game with no retribution. The company was not renowned for its good management practices...

As I said, she stands out in my mind, so I guess the vast majority of people I worked with were the complete opposite to her, thankfully.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833563#Comment_119833563

Yes they are.

I WAS doing it in an ad-hoc way, until one of the underperfomers complained.

It has stopped now. Now I tell them to work at home, but that I will not be calling them ;)