Fine introduced for misuse of EV charging bay

fael

As per today some new fines are introduced. Some fines are doubled, like speeding fines that went from €80 to €160. But there is also an interesting one in there... €80 Fixed Charge for "Parking in designated electric charging bay for anything other than charging vehicle battery". (source: pdf (irishstatutebook.ie) item 16 in the table on page 12)

It's long over due, I've seen it plenty of times in Dublin. I hope the Gardai will actually enforce it, and wonder if this is also applicable to chargers on private grounds, like service stations?

Mod Note: Title updated

NIMAN

What took them so long?

And maybe if they could enforce disabled bays as well.

PaulJoseph22

Good news, should double that fine for EV vehicles parked and not plugged in and trebled for those left plugged in all day.

zg3409

Enforcement will be an issue and non public parking spaces where many chargers are based are not included such as garage forecourt or apartments or hotels.

I know fines are already issued by parking wardens in Bray at least and clamping in Dublin city centre but these are mostly for EVs that did not pay for parking or stayed parked after charging completed as in Bray parking is free only while charging.

The wording in the law is not clear if you charge and overstay when charge completed have you committed an offence if you have paid for parking.

It will allow ICE on public streets to be fined by wardens even if they have paid for parking, but I don't know if it will do anything for EVs parked all day while plugged in. ESBs overstay fee for AC chargers only applies after 10 hours, but possibly only if still actively charging but most cars will be full after 10 hours so technically charging may have stopped so the overstay fine may not actually be applied to anyone on AC. Tow away like happens in Netherlands with a number to call would be better. Clamping used to happen in Blanchardstown but the centre chose to stop it after complaints.

magicbastarder

does the word 'ICEing' have a specific meaning? because the wording suggests it's for any car parked in a charging spot which is not charging?

ELM327

This already existed and had an 80E fine.

UID0

It's down as a fine under section 35 of the Road Traffic Act, 1994, which is "regulations for the general regulation and control of traffic (including the parking of vehicles) and pedestrians in public places", so it applies to any public place.

The public place definition goes back to the Road Traffic Act, 1961, which defines

“public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

I don't think the Gardaí are likely to enforce it in any off-street parking location.

The wording of SI 325 of 2014 say that parking in EV marked spots is only allowed for "an electrically powered vehicle the battery of which is being recharged", so overstaying cars have committed an offence, but I would be surprised if anybody does get fined for this. I think that the biggest risk of being fined is at a charger that unlocks the cable when charging is completed. If another person arrives and sees that the car in the ev charging space has completed charging, and disconnects the cable from the charge pedestal in order to connect their own cable, then the car is in the ev parking space for a purpose other than charging the vehicle battery.

liamog

I would argue that the act of using a designated EV charging bay for the purpose of charging my car covers time spent waiting for the charger to be available and a period of time after charging is complete.

I wonder who will be the first to park their I3 REX with the engine running and claim they are in an electrically powered vehicle and are recharging their car.

The SI seems well intentioned, but other than blatant abuse by non-plug-in vehicles it's going to be hard to enforce.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119799814#Comment_119799814

Every Friday in Limerick the charger by the marketplace is taken by either an ICE or an EV not charging, can't be that hard to enforce it there

mfceiling

The charger on golden lane is often used by a model 3 who never plugs in.

Theres another charger on Mark street and that's used by a Prius who obviously thinks it's a spot exclusively for him.

SVI40

Like so many of our laws it won't be enforced, but it makes for good sound bites.

the_amazing_raisin

So what happens if you're in an E-tron or something and have to park across two spaces to use the charger?

I mean, it's down to bad design of the chargers (and car). So you technically aren't abusing the charging space

(Btw, I know the answer, you'd be done for bad parking instead, I'm just having a little joke 😉)

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119801394#Comment_119801394

Prius's self charge so technically it's doing nothing wrong

Furze99

Be easier to have a hefty fine for ANY vehicle parked at a public EV charging bay for more than 30 minutes. That'd soon sort things out, allow a quick charge top up. Cut all the crap.

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119801658#Comment_119801658

Not much good at a "slow" 22kw one.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119801632#Comment_119801632

They only self charge when they're moving, so parking a hybrid in a charging spot is wrong 😜

slave1

As ELM pointed out this has been in existence for years, it's just the fine has increased. Will not be enforced, same as always.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119802122#Comment_119802122

Ah I didn't know that, I never owned one, only followed what the ads said, my bad

kanuseeme

Some are phevs, newer ones had an option of a solar panel in the roof of the car,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119802269#Comment_119802269

kirving

There is one particular 22kW charger in Ranelagh almost permanently taken by a PHEV, whenever the parking is free. Obviously a local resident, but the overstay fee only activates after 10hrs on a 7 / 22kW charger. It should be 2hrs maximum, even on a 7kW.

That would cover the vast majority of PHEV's to maximum charge at 7kW and likely give a BEV driver a very decent to up (since they'd be at 22kW).

There needs to be at much turn over as possible at on-street chargers, and big fines for overstaying. EV drivers are worse for blocking chargers than ICE I think.

Oh, and as a driver of a 330e - I think we need to ban PHEV's from public chargers, or at least some of them. I'm on the fence about it if I'm honest, and I really do think PHEV's have their merits, but we need to keep public chargers available for BEV's, and anything but a ban doesn't work in practice.

hick

Hybrids should be included also in the fine. Simply put if you have a BEV you have no option but to use a charger. If you own a Hybrid or PHEV then you have an alternative engine and fuel supply, you do not NEED to charge.

hybrids and PHEVs can charge at home with relative ease (there are solutions now for on street parking also)

yes it seems a little blunt, but as a BEV driver who has been at low state of charge and arrived at all kinds of charges to see a PHEV parked there I can tell you who is worse off.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119802965#Comment_119802965

Only a few BEVs charge at 22kW, most will max out at 7kW or 11kW on the 22kW chargers

So I'm not sure 2 hours would really work

I think the main problem is that AC chargers are like gold dust, especially around Dublin. And ESB don't have any interest in installing more of them

Red Silurian

Public chargers are open to all members of the public. Just my opinion.

I've been caught by them in the past but looking at the bigger picture... If that driver wasn't in a PHEV he or she would probably be in either a hybrid, which would be worse for the economy, or another BEV, meaning the car would be taking the same charger, but for longer

mfceiling

I think basically if your car has a plug and can take on electricity from that plug then charge away. Note you should be actively charging. If you are driving a "self charging" vehicle (Toyota) or a petrol or diesel then you are breaking the law by parking (blocking) a charger.

the_amazing_raisin

Here's one, I passed by one of the AC chargers in Pavilions earlier and it was showing a red light

I was tempted to park there since it's close to the door and it was bad drivers day apparently

Obviously wouldn't be charging, or bothering to plug in

Would I be in the wrong? 🤔

slave1

If you are not charging and occupy the space in a public area then you are breaking the law, the law that’s been there for years yet virtually never enforced

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119803063#Comment_119803063

Yeah, true enough on the 22kW.

As far as I see it though, on-street AC chargers just shouldn't be used for long periods, at least not now given their scarcity.

2 full hours, even at just 7/11kW, will give an EV a nice range boost to get home after a commute into Dublin say.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119803232#Comment_119803232

I get that too, and my PHEV really comes into it's own around town where the petrol is very inefficient.

I'd much rather see people in PHEV's on battery all week in Dublin, and burn a tank of fuel once a month on a cross country trip, than have an 80kWhr battery sitting unused for 90% of it's journeys.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119804582#Comment_119804582

Have always argued that on street EV chargers should not be hogged including by fully charged EVs. However many view them as destination chargers and therefore fair game for anyone lucky enough to find a free one on a 'possession is 9/10ths of the law' basis. Its most frustrating to be driving around with low range finding the minimal no of such chargers hogged by fully charged EV, Phevs etc. Serious lack of consideration, especially by EV drivers who should best appreciate their importantce

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119804670#Comment_119804670

I'd rather see a charger used than force someone to move their car at 3am. AC charging is an added service enhancing your parking space, if you need to charge your car to get somewhere then DC chargers are the answer.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119804422#Comment_119804422

What if the charge point is reset 5 minutes after you park and comes back online?

I remember a few years ago a Tesla blocked the DC charger at Blanchardstown due to the CHAdeMO being offline. He parked for 2 hours and was super annoyed at the clamp. I was stuck waiting for the CCS which was working but unavailable due to the physical presence of his car.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119804702#Comment_119804702

As I said thats the view shared by many EV drivers. Luckily many hoggers were free loaders and the introduction of charging for charging worked wonders for access. Still a problem of course but it has improved

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119804719#Comment_119804719

Yeah, you're right. I'd probably be fine since there's enough chargers there that it's rarely full (it's a unicorn among ESB AC sites) but it's not exactly in the spirit of fair usage

Still, it does present a possible legal challenge that if the charger is broken then someone can wriggle out of a fine

I do think that enforcement of the fines will be basically nonexistent, there's far too many ways to get out of it.

Remember that picture of a jeep owner from the US who attended a Type 2 holder to his car so he could pretend he was using the free charging spots? Some genius here will do something similar and the cops won't be bothered disputing him

Furze99

Half an hour max for everyone and then jog on.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806083#Comment_119806083

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone to move a car at 3am in the morning? AC is for charging whilst you are parked not something you actively seek out.

slave1

A Gen 1 Leaf with 3.XkWh charging speed needs hours to top up fully on AC

JohnC.

Ones at train stations or park and ride is unlikely to have anyone coming back within a short time either.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807261#Comment_119807261

This should be the nub of the issue, we need different chargers and different policies for each, not just a blanket approach for all AC chargers.

2/3.5kW in airport car parks: long stay.

3.5/7kW at Train stations: day-long stay.

7/11/22 On-street: as long as the max stay according to the parking regulations.

7/11/22 Suburban/Neighbourhood chargers: overnight.

50kW DC: as long as reasonable charge takes and no longer.

150kW DC: few minutes and then go away.

Of course, this only works if there are enough of each type of charger. eCars have no interest in installing any more ACs, the councils seem luke-warm at best and private operators probably won’t be keen unless it’s subsidised considering the huge amount of ground works needed to install large numbers of them on-street. And if mandatory card payment comes in, that will make AC even less attractive to operators.

the_amazing_raisin

I think there's plenty of circumstances where someone might legitimately be plugged into AC for 12 hours or more, so 2 hour limits aren't going to work unless it's somewhere that enforces that limit on all other cars

If that's the case then they shouldn't have put an AC charger there, a 50kW DC would be more suitable

I don't see any case where someone is sitting plugged in and gets a fine. You'd need to pull the charging session history and see that the charger hasn't been active for hours, which parking wardens won't be bothered doing

The fine will be to discourage ICEing and EVs blocking chargers and not plugging in

ismailkho

Theres another charger on Mark street and that's used by a Prius who obviously thinks it's a spot exclusively for him.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119802965#Comment_119802965

Actually I take back my last point. Parked today at a free charger intending to chare the 330e (near the door in a busy car park), but as I was getting out I saw a Tesla who had followed me in and was waiting for the space. So I gave up the space drove away, only to find no other space in the car park, and had to drive to another car park. I walk back past the door on my way in, only to see that the Tesla hasn't even bothered to plug in - they just wanted the space...

eltoastero

So is there a way to report a car that is blocking a charger?

Or are we reliant on the guards or parking warden happening to walk by and notice a car is not charging but blocking a charger?

I just happen to be walking past an AC charger which has a (regular) Fabia parked and a PHEV parked but not charging (and a leaf has just driven past, stopped, and had to drive on)

DownByTheGarden

I think this will be effective in keeping chargers free. Noone wants a fine no matter how remote the prospect of enforcement.

We have 5 charging spaces at work. Since the middle of November my company has started charging the people using our chargers in the work car park €1 per kwh to charge and you arent allowed to park in them unless you are charging. They are all empty all the time now that there is no more free charging at work. They said it was to encourage people not to overstay in them as more people have EVs lately and were complaining they couldnt get into the chargers because a few people were staying all day. But it was really because the bean counters realized charging is now costing the company a fortune.

People started then charging their cars in the car park of the hotel across the road. Now I hear the hotel have noticed and are going to outsource their chargers so that you need an app to pay and charge. Not sure how that will work, but someone told me they were at a hotel recently in Dublin where that was already happening. They were paying €1.75 per kwh at the hotel charger via an app.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064028#Comment_120064028

The freebies and incentives are closing off. We can fully expect EVs to cost every bit as much to own, tax, insure and fuel in years to come as existing vehicles. This will slow demand which both suits changing public policy thinking and the supply problem.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064028#Comment_120064028

I dunno, given the speeds you see people belting up and down motorways and N roads, I'd say people will always chance their arms.

But hopefully it will cut it down a bit

I agree that paid charging is a great way to discourage abuse of chargers, already seen the difference with Ecars and as you say others are starting to catch on

I think €1/kWh is a bit much for workplace charging. Doesn't need to be free but at the same time they could probably sell the electricity at cost. Business rates are generally a bit higher than night rate, so people will still only use it as needed

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064062#Comment_120064062

Good point.

See in the UK it has or is soon to be law that you can only get chargers installed that are able to be controlled by the power companies now too.

They say its so they can turn them off an on remotely to protect the grid, but the real reason is that it is the solution to taxing EV fuel to replace the lost revenue from ICE fuel.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064212#Comment_120064212

That runour has been flying around for years, I doubt it'll work out at all. If you started getting taxed for using your charger then everyone would just switch to using the granny lead

I'd believe the idea that it's for grid protection, there's a lot of research projects going on at the moment around how best to use EVs for grid balancing. You'd probably see the charger being tied to the prices of electricity, so if it shoots up suddenly then all the chargers throttle to reduce demand

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064161#Comment_120064161

Theres propbably a lot more to it than the cost though. The the ear bending that is on the increase as more staff get EVs and want the perks that the early adopters got. Newer EV drivers are so moany I find. Companies would rather take it away than referee the moaning. Plus they probably see that now its costing them so better not to have it. Then there is the use of the spaces that are EV only. Now that they will be empty they might think they can cut them down to only 2 and let others use them.

As for hotels outsourcing chargers now. I can see their point too. I was often at the desk of a hotel where multiple people were trying to book the charger or complaining that there was someone else on the charger. Now that a €100 night might cost the hotel €50 in electricity to charge the persons car, its easier for them to outsource it and maybe make a profit from it. As well as saying that the chargers have nothing to do with them when there is an issue.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064231#Comment_120064231

Some people would switch to the granny lead alright. I actually have only ever used the granny charger as long as ive been driving an EV, but im sure they are working on that problem too.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064161#Comment_120064161

The only problem will be if some guy without home charging buys an EV with the intention of charging at work. Would cause a fair bit of friction if he camped out full time on a charger. Easiest way to avoid this is to charge a reasonably high rate to discourage people from hogging an increasingly sought after benefit

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064248#Comment_120064248

Yeah there's still so many ways around it that I don't see any reliable way to enforce it

I don't doubt there's a few politicians who would like to enact a system of mileage based taxes, but it would need to be a system that can actually be enforced

Fixed charges on car type are much easier to track and enforce

The closes thing I could see happening would be a tag on and off system for motorways and major N roads, so longer distance travelling is charged for

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064634#Comment_120064634

Would agree fixed charges will apply for some time yet. As regards the on/off tag, this would require careful planning to avoid the law of unintended consequences, especially if N roads are targeted