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Luas Line 'improvements'



  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    That's great thanks for that link. Didn't know this existed.

    I doubt this accounts for the "COVID impact". Since COVID there has been a monumental shift in thinking. The idea of removing cars from certain streets is now worthy of discussion, where a few years ago we wouldn't have dreamed it.

    I'm not pushing an anti-car agenda - I live in the city and love my car - but the "new thinking" at least gives us more options to consider for future Luas extensions and spurs.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    I think the whole rational for the Luas needs to be reassessed.

    Having two Luas lines, that do not connect - merely cross, and that they go from beyond one side of the city to the other, and proposals to keep on extending them further and further out, well it flies in the face of the usual structure of tram services.

    Most European tram services have many routes that criss-cross and interact so that many routes are created so that with one or, perhaps two, changes, one get get anywhere to anywhere else. We have two tram lines that do not interact in anyway and there is no exchange stop - only a need to walk from one stop on one line to another on the other line in the centre of the city - and even the stop on the Green Line is not the same for going north from the one going south.

    Extend the red line from Dolphins Barn the GCD via the North Circular Road (route open to suggestions) with trams able to turn into SSG at Harcourt, and trams from SSG could turn towards both Dolphins Barn and GCD. Already a lot of choice is generated.

    Add a Spur from James to College Green able to go to Parnell or SSG, and suddenly there is a network that allows many routing for passengers. Now add a line along the North Circular from Heuston towards Croke Park and onwards, and we have increased the places the passengers can go with a single change - or no change at all.

  • Registered Users Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ p_haugh

    Once the Finglas extension gets built, the green line really needs to be split into 2 separate lines.

    The existing line would likely remain for the most part (Brides Glen/Sandyford -> Parnell/Broombridge).

    Then, a "new" Blue Line (or whatever colour they decide to use) would be introduced that does Finglas -> St. Stephen's Green. This would require a turnback at St. Stephen's Green, which I believe is already in the pipeline anyways as a separate project.

    The green line could even just terminate all services at Parnell, with the Finglas line covering all stops to Broombridge.

    Now, this will likely all change again once the Green Line south of Charlemont gets upgraded to metro, whenever that goes ahead (if it even does).

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    I like the idea that we start building a wider tram network rather than the distinct separate lines which we currently have.

    We could start to view SSG as a major hub for city trams. The Green Line could extend across North SSG and a new Blue Line could come across South and East SSG. We should remember the Metro stop will be SSG East.

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    Also the links between the Red / Green lines were extremely short sighted.

    Designed to move out of service trams between the lines, not to provide live services.

    In their defence, I guess, the streets are limited given the space required for a bend.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭ cgcsb

    Definitely there needs to be a new east-west line. Preferably from St James to Dame St/George's St and then to south Stephens Green and lesson St. The existing Red line is completely bedlam at almost all times of day

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    How about a spur from the Red Line Museum to Heuston West (HW). You would connect to Dart+ SW at HW.

    I think there's enough space to turn into Heuston but worst case you could build a new bridge across the Liffey. You would need a new Platform at Heuston Main / East.

    You could then run a service from Heuston West to The Point. This would ensure The Point doesn't have reduced service, as you would divert a significant number of trams from James Hospital down to College Green / SSG.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭ cuttingtimber22

    The lack of creativity with the LUAS is a bit disappointing. Some great ideas here - another is to move away from the strict red and green line concept. Why not have trans running from Sandyford to the Point?

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    Is there a way to submit ideas to the appropriate people who actually drive these ideas forward? We shouldn't underestimate the value of a public forum such as this... some really good ideas coming out.

    Keep the ideas coming in any case!

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    The difficulty with this is the Abbey Street Luas stop is in the middle of the split Green line - the southbound line would turn before the platform.

    If they split Abbey Street into Abbey Street East and Abbey Street West, and moved Jervis west, this could tick a few boxes:

    • Allow various routes between sections of the Red and Green lines

    • A much better connection to Capel Street which I feel is badly connected now that it's been pedestrianised

    • Although, I think there would be pushback due to conflict with core bus spines along O'Connell Street.

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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk

    "Inevitably, this brings up the business case for DU, but my personal opinion is that the business case for DU needs to be reviewed given Dart+, PPT, Bus Connects and Luas extension to Finglas..."

    If/when DU goes ahead, there will of course be a new business case report done that would take into account all the new services running or being built.

    But that is the issue DU faces, the more alternative east-west capacity that exists, the weaker the business case becomes from DU, simply because less people will need to use it.

    So if you already have Dart+ operating through the Phoenix Park Tunnel, Metrolink integration at Cross n Guns, one or more new east-west Luas lines, they are all going to "steal" potential passengers from DU's business case.

    Just to be clear, not that I'm against the idea of building the Luas network into a much larger network of multiple intersecting and splitting lines, I'm personally very much in favour of it, but just explaining why we might not have seen fairly obvious ideas like these being explored yet by NTA/TII.

    Given that they are now saying the DU won't be delivered until after 2042, I think it is time for them to rexamine this and start looking at other Luas options. But that in turn might push DU off for even decades longer!

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    Proposed Rail Network for Dublin:

    • Green Luas - extension to Finglas (in planning)

    • Red Luas - extension to Ringsend / Irishtown (already envisaged)

    • Red Luas - spurs from Heuston Main to Heuston West, and James to Dame Street

    • Dart+ W and Dart+ SW in Blue (both in planning) with new station at Heuston West and enhanced terminus station at New Spencer Dock.

    • Metro in Burgundy including Metro North (in planning)

    • Metro proposed extension to Rathmines, Rathgar and SW city

    • Proposed Metro from HW along the Grand Canal to Ringsend / Irishtown

    This network would provide 6 major connecting stations (Tara, Glasnevin, Spencer, HW, Charlemont and GCD). The GC Metro would intersect with every single core Bus Connects Spine (except H). I don't see DU winning any business case versus this plan, even if you lose the Metro extensions.

  • Registered Users Posts: 29,131 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    I really can't believe that yet more Luas extensions are being proposed. Let's add yet more demand and complexity onto two lines which are already at the point of collapse, that'll work.

    The likes of Alcohol Action Ireland won't be happy until we all have ration cards. Maybe not even then.

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    The cost of Dart Underground was estimated at €4.0B in 2010. You could easily double that in 2022. Dart Underground, as proposed, only adds one stop to the network that doesn't currently exist (Christchurch) and would require Irish Rail to close and dig up New Spencer Dock - the shiny new terminus station for two new Dart Lines.

    A Luas Spur from Heuston West to College Green would cost as little as 5% of DU budget and would add 5 or 6 stops to the network. It would also relieve congestion on the Red Line by spreading the load.

  • Registered Users Posts: 29,131 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    That'll be a boon to all the people who already can't get on at outer suburban stations in the morning peak... Proper PT costs money, a lot of money but it's far less than the cost of the disruption, pollution and general brake on the economy the lack of it causes.

    No more half-assed 'solutions' on the cheap (which always end up costing us multiples to fix in the end) for Dublin please. We have suffered far more than enough.

    The likes of Alcohol Action Ireland won't be happy until we all have ration cards. Maybe not even then.

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    Definitely agree - we need more high capacity metro lines.

    Metro North will hopefully be built in next 10-12years. The next Metro line is probably 20-30years away.

    In the meantime do you propose we don't build any new Luas lines or extensions?

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,763 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    That is the way it works in European cities like Amsterdam.

    If we built from James St to College Green, the trams coming in on the Red Line could join the Green Line Northbound there, the curve is good for that, so Tallaght to Finglas would be another option. Additionally that line could continue down Pearse St, providing much quicker access to Ringsend.

    Another option to the Hueston West connection is to take the Luas from Museum into the Phoenix Park and having a stop at the Zoo/Garda HQ with a link to the northern end of the Phoenix Park Tunnel. The Luas could continue along the walls of the part with a stop at the Hole in the Wall, another one at the Ashtown Gate, before crossing the N3/Maynooth line at Navan Rd. Parkway, stopping in the new townland for Dunsink, before crossing the M50 to serve Abbottstown, TU Dublin Blanchardstown and terminating at Tyrellstown.

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    If possible can a moderator change this title to something more appropriate? I set it up to discuss Red Line Luas upgrades, but it has developed into a more general discussion on "Future upgrades to Dublin's Public Transport Network"

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,634 ✭✭✭✭ ArmaniJeanss

    If there were trams running from Sandyford to The Point and vica versa (and presumably you'd also want trains from Sandyford/Broombridge to Heuston onwards) doesn't that just dramatically reduce the frequency of core routings?

    e.g., looking to do your normal Point to Kylemore trip home, currently every tram is suitable. Under your system the first tram might be Point to Sandyford, the next one Point to Broombridge, annoying. The 3rd one is Point to Tallaght, fantastic - but when it gets to Abbey St it has to queue behind a Broombridge to Tallaght tram and a Sandyford to Tallaght tram.

    The current system with a quick change at Abbey/O'Connell if you need to do an indirect trip seems much more sensible to me. Your way it becomes a cumbersome system where you almost have to follow a timetable and get a specific tram.

    I'd be surprised if any networks actually operate this way?

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    If there was to be a network, then it would need more than two lines crossing.

    Many of the suggestions are worthy, and would contribute a lot to the ability of the Luas to carry people to many destination within the canals with perhaps just one change, or even no change.

    How would one get from Dolphins Barn or Heuston or UCD, or even DCU to Griffith College or GCD?

    Maybe, the Metro might help, but the Luas is a system that should allow short distance journeys to be quick and direct. It is not really suitable for long commutes from Tallaght to UCD or Broomfield.

    Dublin had a wonderful tram system a century ago.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭ cuttingtimber22

    The LUAS already operates like this to a certain extent (there are spurs on the red line and the green line trams do not always run the full route) and I have seen it in cities like Amsterdam. Brussels has a pre metro which also has this to a certain extent.

    And yes for this to work there needs to be far greater frequency and less cars in the city centre. The interchange at abbey street as someone who uses it is not great to be honest.

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    I don't believe the Red and Green lines will ever connect up directly at OCS. Right now the lines are only connected in a very limited direction.

    It would simply cause too much disruption to change this, as both lines would be closed temporarily and buses would also be impacted.

    Even if they did this, I'm not sure Bus Connects would be happy, as you would create new conflicts on OCS with trams turning into Abbey.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,763 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    Amsterdam works like this, with various routes cris-crossing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,763 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    That is why running the Red Line from James Street down Dame Street to College Green makes sense. That allows an interchange better.

  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    What do people think of this idea? Extension from James down to Dame Street / College Green, plus a spur over to Heuston West.

    Given the Dart+ plans for Heuston West, that station will need a better connection to Heuston Main. I don't think the main road in front of Heuston cut handle another Luas line, so perhaps a short tunnel section emerging in the underdeveloped Guinness area.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,221 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer

    You do realise that the DART SW service will split between Phoenix Park tunnel services and Heuston (main station) terminators?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    Have they provided a guide on how the services will be split? I can't find one.

    There will be significantly higher demand to use Phoenix Park Tunnel to connect with Metro and Dart+ West at Glasnevin, and the Docklands at New Spencer Dock.

    One would assume Heuston West will have a higher percentage of Dart trains rather than trains terminating at Heuston Main. Heuston is not an end destination for many, I don't think?