Dealer pocketed farmer's payment for bullock he transported.

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Difficulty getting paid from cattle factory.

tanko

A friend of mine sent an animal to a factory with a cattle dealer as part of a load he was sending himself. He handed over the blue card with the animal when it was loaded. The animal was killed under the dealers name and the dealer got the cheque. The dealer has decided that he isn’t going to give the farmer who owned the animal a cent, the factory have washed their hands of the issue and are no help. Is there anything the farmer can do to get paid for his animal?

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757808#Comment_119757808

the animal would have been in the farmers herd number so should have been killed in his name and cheque sent to him - full stop. That’s skullduggery of the highest order.

tanko

I know, it’s a joke, is this a criminal matter?

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757873#Comment_119757873

Surely the dealer would have to prove he had a money trail to the farmer

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757999#Comment_119757999

I’m not sure what you mean, I’ve sent cattle to factories through agents but the cheque was alway paid to me, never to the agent.

893bet

Small claims court an option if less than 2k?

not sure if it applies

893bet

And take on the factory not the dealer.

and spent your days blackening the dealer.

hopeso

Both the factory and dealer are at fault. The factory paid the wrong man, and he kept the money knowing full well it's not his. Unfortunately, the value of one animal won't go far against legal fees, if that's the route he wants to take. The factory's mistake was assuming the whole load of cattle belonged to the same man. But, if they had checked the card and ICBF records like they're supposed to, this wouldn't have happened. I don't know if reporting them to the Dept. would be any use. They'd follow you or me for messing up paperwork, but probably not a factory. Is the factory an independent operation, or part of a group? If they are part of a group, contacting their head office stating that you supplied an animal and never got paid might stir up something....

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757832#Comment_119757832

As far as I can see every factory does this. I agree with you it's wrong. A dealer can kill an animal without transferring it to his own herd number and the factory sends him the cheque Makes a joke of Bord Bia.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758102#Comment_119758102

The factory is a small independent operation, they have been no help to him so far.

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758169#Comment_119758169

It's not just the small ones.

893bet

Threaten a picket and tell them they will lose a lot more when they are closed for a few days.

Then organise a crowd to go. Shower of **** ****.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758299#Comment_119758299

That won’t be happening. He’s a quiet man and wouldn’t be one for causing a fuss, it’s approx €1500 he’s owed.

Sheep breeder

The dealer couldn’t kill the animal in his herd as it was not transferred on the computer and in the factory system the animal has to be approved for slaughter by the Dept stall as in the correct herd and fit for slaughter. The factory would be in trouble for paying the dealer.

tanko

Who would the factory be in trouble with??

newholland mad

If it were me the first stop I'd be making would be the nearest garda station.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758991#Comment_119758991

Sadly pointless. Civil matter is what you would be told. Same as if a friend owed you money or if you paid a deposit to a builder to do work and they didn’t come etc.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758343#Comment_119758343

Well that’s 9/10 of the problem and why the dealer is riding him.

Is there more to the story. Why is dealer refusing?

If he has exhausted diplomatic solutions I would go full on and would be picketing the dealers house. Following him to the Marts where he is buying and standing behind him with a sign. I would lie the loss of the 1500 and devote a month to making sure every single person in the trade knew what happened. Follow his next load of cattle and block entry to the factory. Make him wish he paid.

But I am a thick ****.

Tonynewholland

The department shouldn't be turning a blind eye to dealers killing animals in the farmers name. It would stop this kind of thing happening

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758771#Comment_119758771

As far as I can remember Revenue issued a notice a few years ago directing factories to only pay the person who name/herd number is the last recorded owner on the card/AIM system. We had a discussion on F&F about it before and @Bass Reeves might remember it better. It was something to do with anti money laundering - I think the Slab Murphy case instigated it.

I would contact the IFA and see if they could help - AFAIK you don't have to be a member.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759349#Comment_119759349

I was just reading this thread when you mentioned me.

@tanko

The farmers should have no dealing with the dealer/agent. He should send a registered letter to the processor instructing them to pay him.

Now there is 2-3 issues to clarify

Was the cheque for that animal put in the dealer name. Then it's the processors fault. They have to made an error.

There was a case just after the last downturn. A youngish dealer carried a load of cattle belong to a farmer to a processors ( one of the big three) and told them they were his. The processors made the cheque out to the dealer, he cashed it and went abroad. The processor at the start tried to leave the liability with the farmer but after a solicitors letter they paid up. This case was in the FJ if I remember right.

The other senario is if the cheque was in the farmers name and cashed by the dealer. In this case it's fraud however the processor handed the cheque over to the dealer. It's up to them to get the cheque refunded and pay the farmer.

For a long time after the first senario processors would only make the cheque out to the farmer. It's seems bad habits are starting to creep in again.

@tanko this farmers need to deal with the processor only. It's not his job to deal with the agent. Adding to that the agent has a relationship with the processor which adds to the processors liability. You cannot transfer your liability to a third party. If John owes me 50 pounds and I owe Pat 50 pounds I cannot transfer my liability to John and let Pat collect it.

The farmer should follow the following process. Registered letter requesting payment by return of post Indicating that he will be taking legal action in case if non payment within 10 calender days and that the processor will be responsible for any legal costs

If no payment is received within ten days give it 3-4 days more these b0llaxes often will try to let you spend your own money and time just for revenge. If it was me I would use the smalls claims. If you friend is a member of a farm organisation he could involve them. Even if not sometimes they will help.

Basically all the processor has to do it is issue the cheque to you and stop it from the agents next cheque

Base price, U am not sure if revenue ever issued such a directives. I only remember it in relation to the case after the last recession. Marts are under a similar obligation. Dealers had a habbit of getting cheques for cattle paid to them. A few marts got burnt and most have stopped the practice entirely. Marts may a stop transport costs or add buying fees but if there is a disagreement the money is paid in full to the farmer.

Anto_Meath

If the farmer goes on to Agfood and prints off the details for the animal in question it will show it entered his farm on xx date and then on xx date it was transferred to the factory, bring this to the factory as proof that the animal was never in the dealers herd, show this to the procurement manager and head vet in the factory saying that unless he is paid there and then you will be heading off to Revenue, The Department Agriculture and the Gardas to get this issue sorted.

The head vet in any factory is the most important person in it, nothing enters or leaves without their say so, generally they are older semi retired vets and the last thing they want is hassle so they wouldn't tolerate any messing by the factory that might mean unnecessary work for them. Because after all if they allowed an animal to be killed that wasn't fully compliant (movements not correct) then they are responsible.

As for the dealer he is a p**ck and I would make sure everyone knows he is a prick.

whelan2

Could the dealer not just have transferred the animal into his head electronically himself without the permission of the owner and got paid that way. Movement goes through automatically

Anto_Meath

As far as I know it has to be the seller that does the transfer, or the mart with the owners permission.

whelan2

Dealer who buys calves from me moves them electronically online, I've to do nothing

I told ya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758991#Comment_119758991

Yes, make a complaint to AnGS. Would have thought that €1500 was small money to have the Gardai and/or the Dept investigating.

Also, the bad publicity for both the dealer and factory. Not from an agricultural background, but I was always of the belief that the farming community stuck together in these matters. Wouldn't look good for the dealer or factory to be associated with this carry on.

Is 'Larceny by finding' still on the statute books?

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759737#Comment_119759737

Yes the seller has to look for permission to transfer but it's the sellers job to send in the notification or do it online. The seller can't do this part which is why farmers won't always know it's done unless they go online and check. I know of some dealers who will have animals mostly cows for months and still kill them in the farmers name. Mostly it will only show up if your doing a TB test.

It's a flaw in the system that only the buyer can do the notification part. I think both parties should be able to do it.

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759787#Comment_119759787

The calf exporters are allowed to do it that way not sure if anyone else can

whelan2

Any stock he gets from me, whether cull cows or what ever he has them out of my herd that evening

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759224#Comment_119759224

But at least it would bring his antics to their attention - the dealer wouldn't want them seeking his side of the story, if nothing else

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759948#Comment_119759948

Are the culls going straight to the factory by any chance

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760036#Comment_119760036

No. They go into his herd, a dealer herd number, he'll probably sell them onto someone else

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759579#Comment_119759579

It has nothing to do with the department or the head vet. The procurement manager already know the animal came from the farmers herd. Therefore it's a simple debt collection issue nothing to do with anybody or anything else.

Unless see below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760085#Comment_119760085

Whelan are you saying that the calf dealer is able to take calves and cows from your herd without you starting the process on Agfood similar to the way a mart can.

@tanko & Anto Meath

If they can and this agent had this ability then it's a departmental issue where you report the animal stolen to AGS and you know where it was slaughtered illegally. Now the processor is the receiver of stolen good. In this case it's no longer a debt or civil case the AGS will be one involved.

In this case check into who'es herd number the animal went was it the processors or the agent

. If it's the processors then it's a civil legal action against them for non payment.

If it went into the agents herd number then it theft so it's AGS.

whelan2

Yes the dealer moves the animal from my herd like a mart does. I think he needs the card to do this

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760148#Comment_119760148

The dealer is using the DAFM export approved company to transfer the calves/cows into his or another herd. Other than marts export approved operators are the only ones that can do it.

whelan2

This is probably what the dealer did with your man's bullock

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760853#Comment_119760853

I'm sure if the farmer checks online he will find the bullock wasn't transferred out of his herd.

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761059#Comment_119761059

Tanko said it was killed in the dealer's name

893bet

I am half annoying thinking about this all day.

Anyone with a power here on boards. A solicitor maybe with a farming interest that will to draft a letter. Don’t reveal yourself on here or you will be inundated but a PM to the Origional poster maybe.

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761364#Comment_119761364

Maybe Tanko can confirm the animal was transferred from the farmer's herd before slaughter as it's very common for dealers to get animals killed in the farmers name and the dealer been sent the cheque.

greysides

POST BY TANKO THAT GOT MISSED IN THE THREAD SPLITTING:

Tonynewholland6:34 pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761364#Comment_119761364

Maybe Tanko can confirm the animal was transferred from the farmer's herd before slaughter as it's very common for dealers to get animals killed in the farmers name and the dealer been sent the cheque.

No, the animal was never in the dealers herd, it went directly from the farmers herd number to the factory number.

I wouldn’t have thought it very common for dealers to be sent the cheque for animals they never owned. When i book cattle into a factory through a factory agent, the cheque is sent to me, not the agent. Why would it be any different through a dealer?

cezanne

Wherever there is profit from animals there is multi dirty dealing and dealers are the lowest scum on the earth. They have no respect for an animal and treat them appallingly i have witnessed it in my local mart. Just because an animal is going to die doesnt mean he should be treated poorly. I am sorry for the farmer in thsi case as there are a lot of older farmers being ripped off every other day .

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119762033#Comment_119762033

This is fairly open and shut so deal with the processors only. It's the processors problem to recover it from the agent. That agent will get no leeway in future

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759635#Comment_119759635

The owner can only make a permit, the animal can only be moved from the herd it’s in and accepted by the buyer into his herd. Anything else is fraud.

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119762336#Comment_119762336

. .

dar31

id be contacting the relevant Dvo, and finding out the movement/payment of animals

happened with out owners permission. Douth processor/vet on duty or dealer want Dvo sniffing around their herd no.s

Sheep breeder

A mart has a license to accept animals in to the mart for sale only on the day specified under the license, a calf/ animal exporter has a license to do it for animals into the export herd number. There is a difference between an export number and a dealer number ( brass plate). The export number is supervisions from Dept staff on site which allows them to do this, a brass plate dealer is a once a year check from the Dvo.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119762355#Comment_119762355

No that is not what I said. I said a DAFM approved export company facility can move animals into different herds the same as marts can. The dealer that is buying the calves from you is either working on commission for the export company in which case the export company pays you direct or else he is buying them from you and paying you and he sells them to the export company. Either way they do not enter his herd but go straight to the export companies special herd number as which point they can either export them if suitable or sell them to another farmer within the state which isn't that unusual.

Edit to add - a dealer number is just basically a herd number that allows the movement of over 100 animals in a three month period without drawing a cross compliance inspection. It does NOT allow them to work outside the normal AIMS certificate of compliance rules.

older by the day

Maybe try the IFA office for advice or an other union first. Especially if you're friend don't want the agro. We all know the lad that would rather them keep 1500 than cause a fuss. A solicitor letter to the factory would definitely get things going. I would imagine 100 euro would cover it.

The only way cattle dealers are transferring between herds with out log in details is through the mart system. Dealers and the mart system may have a deal.

Donald Trump

No need to report any animal as stolen. It wasn't stolen. The animal was sent to the processor and the processor hasn't paid for it. So the processor owes the owner for it. That they decided to give some free money to a dealer is a separate matter. The dealer might have held himself out to be some kind of agent for the owner, but that is between the factory and the dealer.

From the factory's perspective, it's probably not the dealer's first time sending to them, nor the last time. So they should have no bother recovering their money. But that is of no concern to the owner.

Either a solicitor's letter or just go to the Small Claims Court.

The factory could claim they bought the animal in good faith so they didn't do anything "wrong". I don't know how well that excuse would fly given the animal was still registered. The keeper of the herd does not have to be the owner. If they did indeed accept an item in good faith, then the default would be that the item in question is returned, but obviously that can't be done after being killed. Technically the legal title to the animal would not have been handed over to the dealer even though the animal was handed over. There would have been no consideration for that transaction. You can have scenarios though in theory where you hand an item to a scammer, who then sells it on, and the third party can "keep" the item even though you aren't paid for it.