Why should I care about Climate Change while China has 43 New Coal Fired Power Stations in the works

Apothic_Red

https://time.com/6090732/china-coal-power-plants-emissions/

So this whole thing is a farce, 43 new Moneypoints in build or ready to go.

At the same time we are winding down our coal generation.

I am no climate change denier, I believe in the science, I believe in thew urgency.

When I read reports like this it just makes me want to throw the dog **** in the recycling bin out of spite, what are we really doing

I've about 30 years left on this rock, touch wood, rest of you are f*cked

teediddlyeye

If the west stopped buying all their cheap plastic crap, they'd stop.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267763/why-should-i-care-about-climate-change-while-china-has-43-new-coal-fired-power-stations-in-the-works

No children then?

NIMAN

If everyone had that attitude, we will be finished a lot quicker.

joseywhales

It's never too late to do the right thing? But seriously when the effects of climate change intensifies exponentially, you are better off have a diverse energy infrastructure than being dependant on fossil fuels. It will effect supply and extraction also. At some point we will reach peak climate disaster and it would be nice for whoever is left to be able to turn a light bulb on.

Dyr

The important thing to remember is that our obession with climate will bankrupt the west, while the russians, chinese and Indians will merrily keep pumping their economies with cheap fossil fuels so your brave sacrifice will be for naught. Not only will you not save the planet for your kids but you'll leave them in poverty.

Car99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753187#Comment_119753187

All these DEALS , MR PRICE and any kids toy store should have all that cheap China plastic suite taxed out of existence. The amount of **** that'd gets sold out of those stores is unbelievable couple that with unnecessary food packaging and you can see why the world's environment is fooked and the oceans are already fooked. Humans are a plaque on this planet and until we are extint the world will never recover.

DLink

We're getting screwed over for the sake of being seen to do the right thing, carbon taxes on expensive fuel and turf cutting banned, while China burns whatever it can for as long as it wants.

Ireland and the West still isn't ready to switch to electric cars, and solar panels, the technology isn't mature enough.

They're riding us into the ground to keep Greta and her ilk happy.

Packrat

We're fcuked either way.

We're all too selfish and want someone else to make the changes (which won't be enough anyway)

OP; there is no reason beyond juvenile conscience that you should care. Itll make no difference either way.

Manach

From the cooling scare in the 70s, to global warning and then to the latest climate change, the public have been inundated with warnings about the changing climate, backed by various reports on how temperature has changed since Industrialisation. However, while providing a basis for states to raise taxes and the usual crowd to throw soup/paint/tantrums from a longer term historial perspective the climate has been changing continuous. From winter fairs held on the Thames to Eygpt being the breadbaseket of the Roman empire we live on a dynamic planet of temperature flucuations. That the some in the West are content to give industrial giants such as China a pass on their power plants whilst celebrating nuclear power plants closing in Europe has nothing to do with science, but politics.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753216#Comment_119753216

Quick China is burning the candle! Let's burn the candle at all ends

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753298#Comment_119753298

You’ve missed the point, China’s way beyond what the rest of the world would even consider.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753356#Comment_119753356

No it's a wild move and I'd love to unpack it but it's no reason to start buying Hummers and building new coal plants.

Apothic_Red

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753199#Comment_119753199

Yes but we'd have a bit of fun on the way out the door instead of dragging it out another generation

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753216#Comment_119753216

The planet will be fine, it will eat us up spit us out and move on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753187#Comment_119753187

Actually, they're turning back to the coal fired power stations because their economy is heading towards stagnation. When times were good they were upgrading the older power stations towards being more environmentally friendly. Oil, sure, but also Nuclear, and the renewables. However, all that upgrading or changing over is expensive, so... yeah. If you really cared about the environment, you should be hoping that the Chinese economy does well, as it finances the changes in Chinese society away from being so polluting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267763/why-should-i-care-about-climate-change-while-china-has-43-new-coal-fired-power-stations-in-the-works

However, I agree with you. It's a complete joke. The point remains that underdeveloped and developing nations will want to close the gap with Western nations, and that means industrialising in a major way. Asia is already doing it and Africa will soon follow suit, so we'll see far more of this going on. It's unavoidable.

TBH I've always felt the environmentally "friendly" responses in western nations to be a bit of a scam. Just look at all the scandals over recycling, or the various government led initiatives which cost a fortune but caused other problems. Wind turbines tearing up the soil and rain pathways?

The truth is we're fcked. Humanity is driving towards massive climate change, and it's far too late to prevent it. We're just ahead of the curve because of Europe industrialising early, but once Africa and South America seriously get down to industrialising, we're all screwed. After all, they can't afford the expensive alternatives which supposedly are better.

DLink

I think most low to middle earners in Ireland couldn't give two fiddlers about climate change right now, they would prefer to have cheap food, cheap fuel for the commute to work (not all of us live in Dublin or other major cities so we have no public transport to speak of), and cheap heating for the house.

Food and heat are all that matters, and the cheaper, the better... Try selling climate change to someone who is scrimping on food and heat right now.

Ireland will be a cold, damp shithole for the next 6 months, if you keep the heating off both you and your house will show signs of that very quickly.

The rest of the world is laughing at us in the West... Plough on lads, burn whatever you want, Paddy Irishman or John Doe will take the hit for you.

igCorcaigh

China is building in self protection as it transitions to a new future. A sensible approach. Don't discard the old before you create the new.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754188#Comment_119754188

So why are we not allowed to do that. Greens interfering in everything Gas, Gas storage list goes on.

Danzy

Outside of North America and Europe no one is interested in climate change or mitigation of carbon.

Carbon outputs in North America and Europe are a small % of the total pie and rapidly falling.

Unfortunately carbon output is rapidly rising in Asia, where 60% of global carbon is produced.

Developing clean technology is the way we can get them to clean up because most of the world doesn't care about it.

unkel

@Danzy - "Outside of North America and Europe no one is interested in climate change or mitigation of carbon."

This is simply not true. While China building new coal fired power plants is bad news, it disregards the fact that China adds more hydro, more solar PV and more wind to the grid every year than the rest of the world combined.

archer22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754188#Comment_119754188

Exactly, and they have already stated in their plan that emissions will increase until 2025. After that the new technologies will come on stream and emissions will start to fall.They are expected to reach or exceed their emission reduction targets for 2030.

The difference between them and say Ireland is that they have a practical real world plan, unlike Ireland's look good 'plan' which hasn't a hope of being achieved.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754229#Comment_119754229

All that matters about carbon in this topic is the volume produced.

China is by far the dominant carbon output producer and exponentially growing, Europe and North America are carbon minnows by comparison, our rapid declines only buy them a little extra time.

Does it matter that they have so much renewables, their scale and commitment to the dirtiest of energies exceeds it.

Climate change will be won or lost in Asia.

dublin49

i am thinking I would hedge my bets if I had a sea front property worth millions and sell up before the market gets ascare,once that Genie is out ....

unkel

@Danzy - "All that matters about carbon in this topic is the volume produced."

That's a very simplistic view. China makes most of the stuff the rest of the world uses. Of course they will have a load of emissions. This is only going to increase as soon enough they will also make most of the world's cars, vans, buses and trucks (all electric). They are actively working to mitigate it though by deploying as much renewables as they possibly (economically) can. I bet they will be emissions neutral before many western countries are.

archer22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754245#Comment_119754245

Per capita the United States is the biggest producer of CO2, emitting more than 50% of the amount that China emits, despite being only around a quarter of China's size population wise.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267763/why-should-i-care-about-climate-change-while-china-has-43-new-coal-fired-power-stations-in-the-works

Ah yes, dirty China. The world's largest investor in renewable technology. Over 25% energy from renewables.

For a country that has well over 1 billion people. I think the sense of scale is lost on people in Ireland. In terms of renewable energy and pro-renewable strategies and incentives, China is leading the world.

This is the country who displaced 1.3million people to build the world's largest hydro electric dam. Compared to Ireland where a few objections from NIMBYs can kill a project.

There's very few countries on the planet with the political will and resources of China. I've no doubt they'll outpace the western world when it comes to carbon neutrality.

I would advise people to read up on China before resorting to lazy out of date stereotypes. China has done in 80 years what took the USA 200 years, and western Europe 1000 years.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754282#Comment_119754282

China produces more carbon than the entire developed world combined.

It's talking about 2060 for carbon neutrality but it's already missing the steps to that

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754298#Comment_119754298

Per capita is not looking at volume.

China produces about 5 times the carbon of America.

China's output is rapidly rising while America is rapidly falling.

Per capita talk is just about ignoring the problem

unkel

@Danzy - "China produces more carbon than the entire developed world combined."

Eh yes. And they make a lot more stuff than the entire developed world combined. If we in the developed world would make all that stuff, we would not be carbon neutral as quickly as China will be.

As @Padre_Pio hints at, that's the benefit of having a progressive dictator instead of a lame democratic government like in Ireland. Energy crisis? Shure we'll play Santa Claus and we'll give you all €200 every few months so you will still be voting for us. Who cares that our children will face the bill. Not saying China is all good, of course I'm not. I'd rather live in a lame country like Ireland were human rights are protected. But let's not ignore the basic sums and facts here.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754298#Comment_119754298

Wrong, the USA is thirteenth: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/carbon-footprint-by-country

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754308#Comment_119754308

Yes, and who buys all the goods produced in China? It's not the Chinese.

Average US consumer spends 97 dollars a day. Average Chinese spends 7 dollars. https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/macroeconomic-insights/growth-of-china/chinese-consumer/index.html

archer22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754304#Comment_119754304

No its "not missing the steps" its expected to exceed its 2030 targets...they have already stated their emissions will rise for 3 more years before they start to decline rapidly.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754318#Comment_119754318

And the same data shows Ireland is 35th and China is 41st. So why should anyone in China bother doing their bit when they're already contributing less to climate change than you or I?

Danzy

China's economy is now the largest in the world, the growth in carbon output is now dominated within the domestic economy, not the manufacturing part of the economy, the manufacturing part is pretty much maintaining volume but shrinking as part of the overall economy.

Within that, the Asian market continues to grow in prominence.

If Europe and North America became uninhabited woodland tomorrow the Chinese economy would still be a Carbon behemoth and quickly use up the dropped carbon output.

If Europe and North America want to solve the climate crisis, it must help Asia with technology to do so.

Anything else is important to buy a few years but will not change anything overall.

Asia is the be all and end all of the climate crisis.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754326#Comment_119754326

Most of it is bought by the Chinese.

Pretending that China only sells to the west was out of date 20 years ago.

In one sector alone, concrete poured, since 2003, China has poured more cement every two years than the US managed in the entire 20th century.

Exports to the US, account for 3% of Chinese GDP.

Carbon in China is a domestic event.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754336#Comment_119754336

Many of them are probably more concerned with climate change and pollution than we are.

They've seen the effects of weather changes, and massive flooding. The problems over desertification. The soil erosion, and the earthquakes. They've had to live in smog filled cities where you need to wear a mask or a rebreather on certain days. They've encountered the problems with fertility, breathing conditions, and cancers. They've had to deal with companies polluting their rivers and drinking water sources. And then, there's the things like Shanghai slowly sinking into the sea.

All in all, the Irish have seen very little come from pollution or climate change..

Padre_Pio

The growth is dominated by domestic...

Yes it is, huge growth, but overall largest carbon emissions are industrial, commercial and construction.

If Europe and North America...

Well who would the Chinese manufacturing sector serve if their biggest customers disappeared?

Europe and NA must help Asia....

This is a problem for everyone, but make no mistake the Chinese are very capable of making huge technological strides.

Pretending the Chinese only sell to the west...

Not so sure on that one, the West is still the primary markets for Chinese exports, more so than its indigenous market.

Chinese poured more cement....

Yes, and the scale of construction is unimaginable. Remember the difference in scale though. China has at least x4 population of USA and huge urban expansion between 1960 and now, mostly into apartment blocks (of dubious quality)

Also US construction doesn't actually use a lot of cement. Majority of houses are wooden, commercial buildings are concrete and steel.

You're not wrong, but I think you're seeing half the picture. China has lifted about 500 million people from wood and mud huts to apartment living in about 50 years. The scale is staggering, probably the biggest and fastest social upheaval in history.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754318#Comment_119754318

The same link shows us 2nd in total emissions (4500 Megatons). Footprint is a net calculation after carbon offset.

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267763/why-should-i-care-about-climate-change-while-china-has-43-new-coal-fired-power-stations-in-the-works

Which version of the science do you believe in?

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267763/why-should-i-care-about-climate-change-while-china-has-43-new-coal-fired-power-stations-in-the-works

When a person says they believe in "the science", they know nothing about it. Climate change is not a problem you adapt as proof you have adapted to global cooling and warming all of your life, your children will adapt. It is climate policies that have very real potential to kill you, and much sooner than advancing old age, by destroying both energy and food production, making both scarce and expensive.

The price inflation we are experiencing today in our day to day living is due to the shortage of energy, and while Putin is the blamed as the proximate cause, energy prices had already risen significantly prior to February 2022. What Putin has done is bought forward the energy crisis that had been in the making since the Kyoto protocol was signed in 1997 and was expected to affect us directly here in Ireland by the end of the decade.

Did you know your smartphone uses more energy than a fridge. The manufacture of solar panels is energy intensive and dominated by Chinese manufacturers. Fertiliser depends on natural gas,and due to the shortage of gas molecules, manufacture has has to cease or be curtailed, the shortage of fertiliser is going to translate into a shortage of calories to feed humans and animals. The competition for gas from rich countries is causing problems for poor countries such as Bangladesh.

Over the past decade Western European politicians have decided that their states economies can be run solely on electricity, in pursuit of that goal they have impeded the discovery and extraction of fossil fuel sources on their doorstep, closed and demolished reserve generation power plants, banned (Ireland) or phased out nuclear generation (Germany), run down their fleet (France) and allocated substantial resources and subsidies to unreliable energy generation sources such as wind and solar and created mandates that increase our dependency on electricity generation.

To cover the deficiencies of Wind and Solar generation they increased their use of natural gas. There is no miracle cure here, the only option open based on pursuit of current energy policies is energy rationing and right now this by price mechanism, gas molecules cannot be printed or borrowed like fiat money can. You don't need a science degree to see what is happening now, you are experiencing it and even the Greens are praying for global warming this Winter, cold temperatures kill more people every year (excess Winter deaths). This part of the rock typically sees temperatures from 4 to 8 C during daylight over the Winter months.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754674#Comment_119754674

He's right in a way though. We've been told at various times over the last 40 years that coal is bad, we need to move to oil; oil is bad, we need to move to heat pumps and solar; lead petrol is bad, we need to move to diesel; diesel is bad, we need to move to unleaded petrol; unleaded petrol is bad, we need to move to electric. At some point people just shrug and get fed up with shelling out money to change to the current "four legs good, two legs bad" must-have item. I don't doubt that in 20-30 years time we'll all have to rip out our solar panels as they're doing <insert bad thing here> to the environment. Or the heatpumps will have to come out because we're depleting the planets copper. The trouble is that governments and corporates always have a vested interest, and they steer the populace towards the thing that will provide maximum profit, not the thing that is actually most beneficial for the planet. If we collectively took the problem as seriously as we did the Covid vaccine we'd have it cracked by now, not the current piecemeal lucky-dip approach.

Take those eejits throwing soup at the van Gogh this week - Just stop oil. Show me someone that thinks oil production should stop immediately and I'll show you someone who doesn't live in the cold, damp north of Ireland or rely on their own car to get around because there's nothing else. Instead of throwing soup around give me a viable, long-term, cost-effective alternative that isn't being pushed just to make rich people richer and I'll jump at it.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755306#Comment_119755306

But Coal is bad - The smog and air quality in cities that burned 'smokey' coal was killing millions of people a year and destroying the air quality across all urban centres

Oil is better than coal, but still affects air quality. Electrical heating is better for the environment if the energy comes from a cleaner source than an oil or gas fired central heating system

Leaded petrol absolutely was bad, it was poisoning people and the environment with toxic heavy metals, Petrol was better, and Diesel, with the modern filters (properly maintained) was supposed to be cleaner than petrol (except that the Car manufacturers falsified their emissions tests) Electric, is much better for air quality in towns and cities and if the electricity is generated using clean renewable sources, it's even better still. Sure there are some pollutants in the batteries, but compared to the amount of dirty oil and all those used filters and engine parts that an ICE car produces over the 15+ years and all of the gunk released when refining the oil needed to make the fuel during it's operation, I'd say the battery electric car is much cleaner in the long run.

I really don't see your point.

In 20-30 years the solar panels will be reaching their end of life anyway, and they will be due to be replaced with whatever the most efficient tech there is at the time. As long as we're not being greenwashed by companies selling dirty technology and pretending it's environmentally friendly, then I see it as a good thing that we're finally taking things like air quality and efficiency and climate change into consideration when planning our home and transport infrastructure

I would be worried about the hydrogen economy being a trojan horse by the fossil fuel sector to keep using methane to generate 'blue' or 'grey' hydrogen

We do need to be very vigilant about where we invest to ensure it's an actual improvement. The Diesel-gate controversy shows that we cannot trust industry to regulate itself. We need to insist on independent evaluation of claims made by industry.

The people throwing soup at priceless art, I have no issue with them. The art is protected, it is not in any danger of actual damage, They are calling for the end of Oil and gas, and we need to keep calling for this as loudly as we can because we know that as soon as we stop paying attention, the oil and gas industry return to business as usual.

They're not going to get oil and gas production to stop immediately, but by calling for this, it highlights the 'targets' to be 'net neutral' by 2050 need to have action taken immediately or else it's just more empty rhetoric aimed at allowing them to continue polluting our planet. A target 3 decades in the future is utterly useless. We need targets for 2023, 2024, 2025 etc so we can measure our progress instead of letting our governments do nothing knowing that they'll be out of power before they're held accountable

Butson

It does feel like we are p!ssing into the wind on climate - either we all do it or we are wasting our time.

But as others have pointed out, China, apart from its massive population, is the leading polluter as the west in addicted to buying stuff we don't need. Cheap, plastic tack from toy shops, Deals etc

Crap clothes from the likes of Pennies. All this stuff is made over there, then we buy it.

Strumms

If governments want to get tougher on climate change they need to attack the causes of it. Corporations, industry and big businesses.

of course they don’t have the stones for that, they’d rather attack the guy on the street for not driving an expensive hybrid or not using the invisible public transport that isn’t there.

Thinkingaboutit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267763/why-should-i-care-about-climate-change-while-china-has-43-new-coal-fired-power-stations-in-the-works

Germany also has new lignite coal power plants. The thing other country do what might be workable for them and their people while our rulers ensure other countries laugh at Paddy dogmatically following some old dogma where in this case nonsense politicians sign up to at some expensive summit. It is of course a more than useful coincidence that environmentalism is largely a pretext for more taxes so grifting quangocrats and environmental consultants who are happy as larry lapping up the tax payer cream. Coal is still king in China and elsewhere. It isn't in this kip of a country (it's a kip now with town after town falling into near ruin), but Irish have to are ruled by grifters, pious people I'd see or hear if inflicting watching RTÉ Current Affairs on myself.

It's a bit like European countries destroying their agriculture sector and eating insects while....

https://sentientmedia.org/deforestation-in-amazon-and-cerrado-reaches-record-high/

https://twitter.com/EvaVlaar/status/1581368482259533824?t=fgA-WB1uodh8_5Z_3JTM5Q&s=19

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755423#Comment_119755423

As also pointed out If China stopped exports to the West today it would remain the largest carbon output source globally, still be producing more carbon than the West combined, it would continue its meteroic rise in carbon, while the West continues to drop.

3% of Chinese GDP is linked to US exports. Pretending Western consumption is the source is just self obsession by the West.

We must continue to improve but the carbon crisis will be won or lost in India and China regardless of others actions.

Helping them clean their tech is the biggest priority.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755423#Comment_119755423

Considering the costs of living in Europe, there's quite a few people who do need those "cheap" clothing options. And in any case, many of the "designer" brands manufacture their clothes in China too.

And while they might leave China, they'll simply re-establish themselves in Vietnam/Cambodia or Africa, where they'll have even less laws to be concerned about in relation to environmental concerns. If it's not China, it'll be a combination of other developing countries, so that Westerners can pretend that they're concerned about the environment.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267763/why-should-i-care-about-climate-change-while-china-has-43-new-coal-fired-power-stations-in-the-works

if you have kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews, you should be damn worried about it, theres more to the human race than just our own needs!

china has actually invested more than all other countries on the planet in expanding its renewables, and those of us in the west have ultimately been the ones supplying china with the majority of their fossil fuels, so its not really just the Chinese playing this game!

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755628#Comment_119755628

The West supplies China with fossil fuels? About half the world's coal is mined in China, over 60%in Asia and rising rapidly. In freefall in the West.

70% of China's exports are to non western countries.

The domestic economy is by far the biggest market for China.

The days of China being just a workshop for Western sold goods is 15 years out of date.