Ireland Examining Neutrality After Ukraine War

Strumms

thats according to Minister For State, Thomas Byrne…

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/1014/1329198-irish-neutrality/

’Ireland’… so not the government, citizens, the actual whole Ireland nation apparently. Why is Russia invading a country that is almost 3000 kilometres away from Ireland, a reason for this individual to be making such proclamations ?

i don’t think if it was put to a referendum that the Irish people would agree…

Russia invaded the Ukraine on February 24th this year…

the Ukraine with all that going on, decided to apply for EU membership on February 28th, 4 days later. 😏

now we have a minister for state, proclaiming that because of an issue 3000 kilometres away, we are to stop being a neutral country.

Ok that means we would need to spend multiple millions more on our defense. How the gibbering fûck are we to achieve that with the burgeoning imposition of our rapid and extensive population increase, with medical cards, free healthcare social welfare, free housing and free public transport being enabled to these new arrivals free gratis.

where ohhh where does the cash come from to build the type of defense force to suitably defend a nation like ourselves, buy aircraft, ships, invest in infrastructure etc… as well as defence to join in other conflicts..

we can’t even build one line of a fûckin metro, but change from a neutral to a non neutral country. Recommended in 2005 and they haven’t even applied for planning permission yet. But ok, let’s not be neutral and go off joining wars, and taking political stances on conflict that doesn’t need to involve us.

Threadbans

85603

thegame983

If FFG can find a way to hand over tax payer funds to weapons manufacturers they'll do it.

Also they were probably told to do it. It's not like they have an opinion of their own.

Silentcorner

What's left in this country that the population has any control over anymore?

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749065#Comment_119749065

Our need to be the best boys in the class will trump all else!! And the population will be conditioned to cheer it on no doubt!

I would prefer if Ireland were in NATO. It's a defensive alliance. We are pretty much defenseless. It would foster closer links to other NATO member states which would be good for trade and other opportunities.

85603

The bullsht about Russia ever potentially "rolling across Europe" has been debunked.

They're hilariously incapable.

OK. Carry on.

Dyr

People syaing getting worked up about NATO who've had **** all to say about Ireland relying totally on the Brits for defence for the last 30 years.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749135#Comment_119749135

defense from who?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749091#Comment_119749091

NATO membership comes with a commitment to spend minimum 2% of GDP on military spending. Ireland's GDP is incredibly high because we have so many multinationals, Ireland's GDP is about 350 billion so 2% would be 7 billion euro its currently 1 billion. Where are you getting 6 billion more every year?

We're not defenseless, also do you think Ireland gets attacked and the EU/UK/US don't step in even without us being in NATO?

Gatling

It's about bloody time ,

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749187#Comment_119749187

Fact check: the NATO spending targets are just that, spending targets. Only 9 countries in the in the 30 country bloc spend 2% of GDP or more on defence. Prior to the Ukraine War it was only 4 countries (US, UK, Greece because of Turkey, and Estonia because of Russia).

Luxembourg spends about 0.5% and Iceland spends a grand total of 0% of GDP, and nobody is making them spend a penny more than they want.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749135#Comment_119749135

The Brits never defended us, for the most part they’ve just caused trouble down the years on this island.

Donald Trump

Headline says they are examining it.

Surely it is good practice to reassess any policy after time to time. Even more so after a change in environment.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749104#Comment_119749104

They wouldn't have to roll across Europe. It wouldn't be out of the realms of possibility though to do something on Ireland as an example to other countries of "hey, look what we can do". Not likely, but still not impossible.

Galwayguy35

We spend 1 billion in so called overseas aid to corrupt third world countries so TBH I'd prefer if it was used on defence instead.

The army themseves say we need to up the defence spend so I'm going to go with their opinion in this instead of looney lefters like that little bell end Paul Murphy.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749524#Comment_119749524

If you look at the figures the average spend on defense is around 800 million pa, unless like this year we had to buy 2 aircraft and two naval vessels which brought the spend to just over 1 Billion,

The average of 800 million pa breakdown 400 million goes on wages and pension,and the rest goes on munitions and equipment.

We spend more on average on overseas aid than on defense, that same overseas aid helps fund African countries militaries including those with tanks and fighter jets but we've neither

tayto lover

Who are we afraid of?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749187#Comment_119749187

Iceland is a NATO member and doesn't even have a standing army so calm the knickers.

We are defenseless. We don't have a naval force even equipped with helicopter landing ability on it's ships never mind sonar or air or submarine defense. We don't have a credible air defense nor primary radar. We couldn't even prevent a cyber attack on the HSE.

Fishermen were to be sent to drive off the russian navy for God's sake.

Relying on the EU in defense matters is a fools errand. One only has to look at the behaviour of Germany and some other European nations to the invasion of Ukraine, do as little as possible for as long as possible. No one is beholden to defend us, that's child like thinking.

In terms of defense, NATO is the only game in town.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749476#Comment_119749476

It wasn't said in reference to Ireland.

Ive seen that sht bandied about over the years in reference to continental geopolitics. About how Russia has a bazillion tanks and will roll across the continent, Paris in a week etc. And now its debunked as fck.

Russia couldn't roll over a small hill.

And now Germany is going on a shopping spree. Which hammers home the point. Russian ground forces are done as regards any real western movement on the continent.

As for us, I don't think Russia even could stage an invasion of Ireland, no functioning a/c carrier, EU airspace blocked off entirely Mediterranean up to Scandinavia, UK airspace and sea territory roughly wraps around Ireland from 3 sides, their cold water ports are inoperable during winter. Russian naval infantry is only 12,000 personnel. Impossibly awkward supply lines.

They could bomb/rocket us, but destroying our infrastructure is not really showing the world much in the way of fearsome capabilities. We have TDs who do that already.

We need some defense upgrades, and thats about it. No need to change our politics.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749463#Comment_119749463

Our entire defence strategy is a post it note that says "ring the Brits and hope that they answer"

People who have very pronounced views on NATO are strangely unperturbed by the fact that our defence forces would be hard pressed to hold off the Salvation Army.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749777#Comment_119749777

I wasn't talking about invasion. Just about causing some damage to the country or it's infrastructure. A way of making a symbolic attack on "the West" without triggering an automatic NATO response. That is not to say that there would be no response, just that it wouldn't trigger one the same as if it did the same thing in England, or off the coast of England, for example.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749777#Comment_119749777

Our politics has already changed. We no longer play nice with Russia and are fully signed-up in imposing onerous EU sanctions on the regime.

Irish political neutrality was always pretty much a myth. This war drops the pretence.

GalwayMark

A lot of Eastern European countries are really beginning to resent our neutrality and when the conflict is fully over the gloves will really come off in terms of criticism like not giving Ukraine weapons that aren't needed by us anyhow, assisting Putin's consigliere for laundering their money along with the military bank and thirdly accusing us of moral cowardice and selfishness that in the long run may cause ructions over a policy most tolerated until now due to simple idleness.

I'd say a part of the unification package from both Washington and Brussels is going to include possible NATO membership, increased defence spending and military training in major army institutes on both sides of the Atlantic.

Anyone who thinks our military neutrality will survive unification is simply for the birds and quite possibly ignoring trends going forward that will make it impossible to keep doing things as it were before last February's invasion because that world ain't coming back no matter how slim or feasible to carry on in the long run.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749810#Comment_119749810

all bar 4 countries in the UN have stopped playing nice with Russia, calling the annexation illegal. doesn't mean they're all politically aligned against Russia in some larger sense, or militarily siding against Russia. Theres space between neutral and rival. You can remain neutral and still condemn, sanction and take other such punitive/belligerent actions.

Apparently we've pssed off the Ethiopians no end, doesn't mean we're in a greater rivalry with them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749860#Comment_119749860

A friend of mine is very politically involved, he brought up brexit, the new UK Govt., and Ireland having the EU's backing. Yet in the same conversation he talked of the war and said "are we really getting all the truth?", much as to say Ukraine was as much to blame as russia. I gave him some food for thought rather like you mention above. If another member states important interest is keeping russia at arms length, then how are we to expect them to support Ireland as regards brexit, when the UK send's Ukraine so much weapons. Stopped him in his tracks.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749873#Comment_119749873

We are definitavely aligned against Russia. There's no point in even entertaining a counter-point. We've picked a side.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750088#Comment_119750088

It's someone leaving the club thinking. Was surprised how long the UK stayed in the EU TBH they never considered themselves European. I find it odd in Ireland that yes people are very pro EU but also speak of and hold Irish Identity as if it does not conflict. Bogus Neutrality, Wanting all the good stuff but none of the downsides. Irish Gov loves the extra stealth taxes. Water charges well the EU has them. VRT well that's Illegal pretty much in EU context nope were keeping them.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750088#Comment_119750088

I do think we owe Eastern EU members a bit more in security measures if we are to be credible. Whether that is through contributions to EU mutual defence arrangements or NATO, I am on the fence about it, but our neutrality is a fudge in the 21st century.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750118#Comment_119750118

grand so, we're unofficially aligned with the west in general against Russia in its annexation. job done.

lizzyjane

Would never pass a referendum so wont happen. Although I said the same about the Lisbon treaty and they made us vote on that twice.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749091#Comment_119749091

Tell the people of Afghanistan that NATO is a defensive alliance.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750227#Comment_119750227

Never is a poor word to use given current public sentiment...

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/08/28/public-divided-on-nato-membership-new-poll-shows/

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750227#Comment_119750227

Would it need one though. Ireland has never been politically neutral. Ireland has never been militarily neutral. Peace keepers and UN dictating those missions.

Has it ever been to a constitutional court setting. Foundation of Neutrality is being neutral on politics and military. Ireland is neither.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750243#Comment_119750243

That is quite correct. To join NATO (or any other mutual defence treaty for that matter), it merely requires the approval of the Oireachtas and enabling legislation. This is why some on the political fringes want neutrality inserted in the constitution to restrain the Oireachtas from doing so.

In my opinion, there's a greater chance of such a referendum failing to get past the people. It would be entirely reckless to calcify such a restraint on the executive in the constitution from a national security standpoint. We don't know what the next 20 to 30 years, never mind the next 100, have to offer Ireland threat-wise. If there came a day when we'd need to join a mutual defence pact and we needed to organise a referendum, it would already be too late.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749703#Comment_119749703

We need to look credible to the world so it seems. Jesus wept.

Yurt2

You won't find the word neutrality in our legislative framework, or in our constitution. It is, as Enda Kenny once put it, a matter of government policy. And he was quite correct.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750232#Comment_119750232

Nato and America did more for Afghanistan than any other countries combined,they had the greatest shot at peace they've ever known ..

But yes rant away

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750257#Comment_119750257

I'm Not Irish just being pragmatic was pretty sure it was a gov stance not in any legislative material. If so a Ref would be a great way to codify. I can get an Irish passport but would just feel like a plastic Irishman to me. Ireland has been very good to me over the years the people especially. I just fear for the Defence of such a rich loving people. Ireland cant rely on the old UK bat phone.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750258#Comment_119750258

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34433302

If NATO weren't killing children they were bombing hospitals in Afghanistan.

To say NATO done any good for the country is a quite astounding viewpoint.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750232#Comment_119750232

Pretty ridiculous take. Afghanistan before NATO arrived was a security vacuum and a terrorists and extremists' playground.

Apart from NATO member countries, the international community (mostly NATO members tbh) poured billions into the country to build infrastructure, roads, schools, hospitals, capacity building for the state.

Look at it now. The likes of Clare Daly stands up in the European parliament and without a lick of irony decries the world for abandoning Afghan women on one hand, and condems NATO for existing on the other. Who do you think gave Afghan women and girls the security umbrella to go to school in the first instance?

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750264#Comment_119750264

I would rather be under NATO jets than Russian Artillery. As we see in Ukraine.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750264#Comment_119750264

Do you think NATO deliberately struck the hospital? Be honest now.

NATO gave Afghanistan the greatest shot it will ever get at pulling itself together as a state and member countries spent billions upon billions on public works projects, health projects, eduction - you name it. You obviously love 7th century religious fanatic creeps running things.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750267#Comment_119750267

You cant create a modern day country by pumping billions upon billions of dollars into it if the people aren't ready to be as civilized as the west. You cant just expect democracy to pop up over night.

Look at the waste of money, nearly 2 decades in the country, countless lives lost and the Americans are ran out of the place with there tails between there legs and the Taliban back in control.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750271#Comment_119750271

There is an option for neither because both cause devastation wherever they wage wars or intervene.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750276#Comment_119750276

Afghanistan is a broken back **** hole of country that is about 100 years behind the west. It was beyond naive to think bombing them back to the stone age was ever going to help anything but make the situation worse. 20 years and how many lost combatants and its back to the way it was before hand, plus the Taliban armed with the weapons the U.S left behind.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750288#Comment_119750288

What exactly is your point? NATO countries gave Afghanistan 20 of the freest years its citizens will ever live.

There is a regular poster that lived in Afghanistan in both the first Taliban-era and in the NATO-era. I'm sure he'll be along to disabuse you of your hot take, and as to the good that NATO member countries did for the country.

Millions of Afghanis lives were improved by their presence. Millions of girls educated, their health system and infrastructure transformed The US air force should still be there truth be told. It was a typically dumbass move from Trump to announce the withdrawal, and for Biden to follow-through. It will be back to the word capital of terrorism before long.

But, NATO bad right?

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750290#Comment_119750290

The neither option leave Ireland open to an attack. We don't know who is on the rise at the moment and what they may do. We know we have Islamists. What if they start using Ireland as a launch pad. We have no Credible way of countering or finding them. Being part of NATO would give us access to 5 eyes for example. Sure we have the largest russian embassy outside the USA. What if the russins have sent sleeper agents in with the fleeing men. What if they start to attack Europe. We are an easy target. How much damage would or could they do before Ireland gets on the Bat phone to the UK for special forces help ?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750299#Comment_119750299

They weren't bombed back to the stone age. That's bullsh*t straight from some Trot pamphlet handed out by a neckbeard on O'Connell Street.

Thousands of schools, many hundreds of kilometers of road, hundreds of hosptials, an entire state infrastructure was built. It was a Syphesian task no doubt, but the edgelord take that they "bombed Afghanistan back to the stoneage" is absolute rubbish.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750276#Comment_119750276

What are you on about. It was the U.S who armed and trained the Taliban to fight the Soviets. Did you ever hear of Operation Cyclone.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750307#Comment_119750307

I think they forgot the russians bombed them back to the stone age.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119750309#Comment_119750309

They armed the Mujhadeen. Not the same thing. The Taliban didn't emerge until after the end of the Soviet war (around 93-94), mostly midwived by the Pakistan ISI.

It helps to know the history about these things. So no, the US did not arm and train the Taliban.

To throw it back at you: "What are you talking about"