Limerick transport and travel projects

pigtown

There are a lot of proposed and confirmed travel and transport improvements coming down the tracks for Limerick city and county, and the wider region.

I thought it might be a good idea to create a thread to post details of them and hopefully lead to discussion and debate.

Some of the bigger ones are;

ROADS

M21 Foynes - planning permission approved, no details on construction yet

M20 Cork - route selection agreed if I recall correctly

REGIONAL RAIL

Limerick-Foynes - plans to reopen the line for freight are looking positive. There's talk of potential passenger services too but I can't see it happening

Limerick-Limerick Junction - plans to double track the line seem to be a given. Don't know when it will happen though

Limerick-Nenagh - track upgrades have enabled an increase in speed on the line. No additional services are proposed yet though

Limerick-Galway - a solution to the flooding issues is being worked on

SUBURBAN RAIL

The Green Party and Irish Rail are pushing for a Suburban rail network for the city with new services and stops on all the existing lines, as well as a new connection to Shannon. It's a very ambitious proposal given the existing services and could transform the city if it went ahead. There's virtually no support for this in the department though and Limerick's planning policies aren't geared up to support such a service.

In saying that, Irish Rail are due to receive a large number of new trains which might result in a surplus. It's possible they might be allowed to run new services on the existing lines given no new train sets would be needed.

Also, the country is going to have to take drastic action to reduce our emissions soon so its possible attitudes in government will change rapidly.

Quitelife

If they could open the Limerick to Foynes railway for passenger use it would take a lot of traffic off the N69 and N21 each day . That’s the type of stuff the Green Party could do that the public would be happy with . The line is there already .

pigtown

GREENWAYS

There are a lot of greenways mooted for the region.

Limerick-Rathkeale - a connection from the city to the Limerick Greenway is a certainty. Route selection is underway and a final route is expected to be published by the end of the year.

Limerick-Scariff - Waterways Ireland are developing a greenway from the University along the old Erina Canal and the Shannon through Killaloe and on to Scariff. Route selection is nearing completion. The renovation of the Black Bridge is proposed as part of this but I wouldn't be surprised if they decided just to use the existing bridge in UL to save costs.

University-Annacotty - an extension of the existing riverside greenway to connect with Annacotty Village. Construction is due to start next year I think

Castletroy-Castleconnell - there's talk of a connection from the new greenway North to Castleconnell. I don't think there's much done on this though

Limerick-Cahir - preliminary route southeast to connect the city to Cahir. Possible parallel to the rail line or along the N24 after its upgrade.

Patrickswell-Charleville - a potential route has been mentioned. Cycling upgrades are planned as part of the overall M20 project.

Ballina-Dromineer - Tipperary County Council are planning a Lough Derg Greenway connecting these towns. Inevitably this will connect to the Limerick-Scariff route and probably the Castleconnell one too when it's built.

There are others planned to connect to Bunnratty and Shannon too but I don't know much about these

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700578#Comment_119700578

I'm not sure that's true to be honest. There aren't any big population centres on the line and it's unlikely that everyone would be working near wherever a new stop is built. It would be very difficult to entice people out of their cars once the motorway opens.

pigtown

Something that people should have a look at is Cycleconnects.

https://consult.nationaltransport.ie/en/consultation/cycleconnects

The NTA have launched a consultation for a nationwide cycle network. It seems quite comprehensive but a lot of it is just designating existing country roads as the optimal route to cycle without any physical improvements. Its just an initial consultation so I suppose its up to each local authority to work out the details

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700578#Comment_119700578

It wouldn't unless those people were all traveling into the city center. Most of those people will be heading for centers of employment nowhere near the city center such as Plassey and Shannon. And the Adare to Foynes Road will take most of the traffic off the old N21 and N69.

Similarly how many people from Moyross will want to get a train out into county Clare to travel into the city? It'll be quicker to get the bus.

Reusing the old heavy rail lines that don't meet the needs to people today is a poor idea.

Invest in more and better buses and bus lanes and park and rides on the outskirts of the city.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700644#Comment_119700644

Well I can tell you the Limerick to Scariff Greenway has hit a few major snags. It can get as far as clonlara but that's it. They can't use the banks of the headache canal as the ESB won't let them. And they can't use the narrow old tow path to o Briensbridge as it would require significant widening which is prohibited as it's in a conservation area.

pigtown

Well that makes it awkward. I wonder what the ESB's problem is, isn't most of that section used by walkers already? How can a tarmaced path be an issue

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737212#Comment_119737212

Is it used legally though ?

In regards to the Foynes line I'm not sure anything will get people who have spent their lives using cars to switch but Adare-Patrickswell-Raheen I.E.-Colbert could work to open those areas up for future residents.

Would be similar to Oranmore and Athenry.

Glenomra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737212#Comment_119737212

ESB concern about possible subsidence to the canal banks much of which comprises of gravel. An employee walks the bank each day checking against same. Burrowing animals in particular cause problems. As the level of the water is higher than surrounding land a break in the banks could conceivably cause what the ESB refer to as a 'catastrophic' event. Unlikely but they have to be cautious. More than likely they will sort out the matter. Hopefully!!!

Poxyshamrock

Anyone have any knowledge of the timescales for the redevelopment of Colbert Station and the new bus station building?

I get the train a couple of times a week so have been observing the works. They're still doing groundworks on the proposed station area so it looks like it could be a while off yet. 2024? Anyone have any more precise details?

Cetyl Palmitate

Deadline for submissions on SCR active travel route is tomorrow at 4. Lots of submissions in already, in favour and against.

https://mypoint.limerick.ie/en/consultation/part-8-south-circular-road-city-centre-active-travel-scheme

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832795#Comment_119832795

If that's the case then it sounds like engineering can solve the issue. Hopefully it doesn't delay the development too much

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832367#Comment_119832367

My concern with the proposal to establish a suburban rail network is that the Council are not responding to it in their plans/zoning. Rail stations should be located in dense areas in order to be useful/cost effective and if they're surrounded by low density semi-ds such as Mungret, Kilteragh, and Corbally then they won't serve to get people out of their cars as they'll be living too far from the stations to be usable.

Higher densities should be mandatory in these areas

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119856683#Comment_119856683

In fairness it's kind of difficult to respond to a pie in the sky plan. There are no actual plans for any new stations other than in Moyross. And even that one is still very much aspirational.

pigtown

Yes but it's the job of the council to plan for this.

if you look at the railway lines on google maps you'd be forgiven for thinking development has actively been pushed away from them.

Cork have been trying to densify the areas around their railway lines for decades in advance of an upgraded service and that is now paying off.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119858202#Comment_119858202

Whereabouts in Cork ?

pigtown

It's been a while since I studied it but the proposed stations along the line to Midleton and to Mallow have been zoned for higher resi densities. They've also been planning for the tram along the southside for years, with a lot of development in the Mahon area.

Not all of it has been successful but at least they've been trying.

John Moran spoke about it in an interview with Matt Cooper a couple of months back- the road to Foynes is costing ~half a billion, the rail line is being reopened for freight with a lot of talk about it reopening for passing, and the towns along the line aren't planned to grow all that much.

Limerick Council just don't seem to do transport based planning for some reason

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119858759#Comment_119858759

Ide definitely agree with the last bit.

Even our city bus routes don't change much to take in new areas. City is way bigger but we still only really have the few single digit bus routes.

Cookiemunster

It's up to BE and the NTA to improve/increase the bus routes, not the council. Things like the LSMATS are designed and funded by the NTA too, rather than the council. Yes the council can put in more bus lanes, but they can't make BE put more buses on them.

letsseehere14

Bit of pie in the sky stuff here from me but, as much as greenways are great amenities and cycle lanes in urban areas are only be a good thing, if Limerick is to compete and start to draw attention away from Dublin and Cork it needs to sell itself better. And it has so much already in place to do that. Some rail lines should be brought back into use rather than be turned into greenways. But Limerick City needs to be looked at as a bigger entity than jus the city. Clare plays a big role here.

As said above, there are options for transport the Greens can promote and get people on board such as a better rail link to and from the city.

If you look at the existing, if some unused, rail infrastructure around the city and its hinterland, there is minimal investment needed compared to some other large scale options. And yes, as said above again, some of the areas are not big populations but they could grow into really nice, medium sized commuter towns in the future rather than forcing everyone to live in Limerick suburbs. Limerick could be a better option than it is and compete closer to Cork than what its doing right now and it is now we need to look into the future for what we want the city to have and not in another 10 to 15 years when traffic is impossible, cars are too expensive to run, electricity costs are through the roof and mass transport is something every city needs.

If you look at the populations from 2016, Limerick city has about 100k. But if you took a Greater Limerick City area its about 160K. If you take Limericks hinterland, as I would define it, towns approx. 30 mins drive from the city this grows to about 250K. Its a large area but undeniably it does draw people from this zone to the city and it is a substantial population. I would have it from Shannon up to Ennis, across to Sixmilebridge, over to Westbury, Parteen, Killaloe, Nenagh, down to Newport, Doon, Tipperary Town, Hospital, Bruff, Croom, Rathkeale, Adare and up to Foynes and Askeaton. Nenagh, Ennis and Tipp Town at the very edges of this hinterland and large areas in their own rights but also close enough to Limerick to feel its influence and linked by road and rail.

You have motorway access from Ennis in the North, Nenagh in the East, and soon from Foynes, Rathkeale, Adare in the West.

What is really interesting is the rail options. There is a rail line direct from Ennis to Limerick, passing Sixmilebridge, Cratloe, Moyross, Corbally, Literally runs directly beside Parkway Shopping Centre and Childers Retail Park, Garryowen and into Colbert Station.

Then from Tipp Town, Limerick Junction, Oola, Pallas, Boher (where Hospital, Doon, Tipp traffic merges), Directly past City East Shopping, Delta Shopping, Ballysimon Industrial area, Galvone Industrial Park, Linking with the Ennis line into Colbert. The Nenagh line passes close to Ballina/Killaloe at Birdhill, through Castleconnell, Annacotty Business Park and links with the Tipp line a little further out.

But most interesting is the old line from Foynes, past Askeaton, just north of Rathkeale, skirts the edge of Adare, past Patrickswell, then directly past Raheen Industrial Park, there is a spur that is beside the Crescent Shopping Centre (it may as well be in the carpark), into Roxboro and into Colbert. The Crescent spur goes on the norther edge of Dooradoyle and basically already goes to Mungret by the cement factory.

Limerick basically has a ready built mass transport system beside 4 large industrial areas, passing 15 rural population areas, maybe Munsters largest shopping centre and beside huge Limerick Urban populations such as Dooradoyle, Mungret, Moyross, Corbally, Rhebogue, Garryowen, if they wanted it. Also all it needs is about 2km of new line to link into UL from between Corbally and Parkway. If Clare CoCo had any cop-on; 12km of new line to link into Shannon Town, the industrial Freezone and into the Airport to the line by Sixmilebridge. Everything else exists bar some simple stations and cheap and cheerful simple trains to run it.

The fact that Shannon airport, town and Freezone, the 3rd biggest Airport in the country, a town of over 10,000 with a huge industrial zone situated between the 3rd, 4th and 12th largest urban areas in the country only needs a short rail line to link it basically the entire country including Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and it hasnt been done is ridiculous. Limerick City is basically a 2 county city and joined up thinking is needed.

pigtown

You're right, and I get the impression that both Brian Leddin and Eamon Ryan see the potential and are determined to do something about it. I also know that they're fighting against the Department who aren't all that interested. Hopefully the Greens win the argument

Munsters largest shopping centre

That'd be Mahon Point, no?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119867019#Comment_119867019

The Ennis line is a single track, adding extra stations will add to the duration of your trip to the city and that devalues any benefit in taking the train.

source

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119867039#Comment_119867039

Crescent is the largest in the country (outside Dublin). Mahon point is second largest in Munster (after Crescent).

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119867492#Comment_119867492

A passing loop at Sixmilebridge is being talked about which would help with this.

Eventually double tracking and electrification would be needed I imagine

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119868150#Comment_119868150

If they implement it on a single track and the public don't use it because it's slower to get to city by train than by car/bus when do you see investment in a double track

pigtown

I don't know, that's for policymakers to decide.

There's no avoiding the fact that the country has to drastically reduce its carbon emissions rapidly though so I wouldn't be surprised if such projects become more politically palatable

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119868901#Comment_119868901

If we parked every car in Ireland, what difference globally would that make.

Ireland seems to love being to the fore I'm implementing policies that other countries cherry pick at implementing.

Unless China, America, India, Pakistan and other large populations buy into reducing carbon emissions then we're wasting our time

pigtown

We'll still face huge fines if we don't reduce emissions so it doesn't really matter what those countries do. I'd rather we invest in transport than pay fines.

waterwelly

I really don't get these calls for a rail link to Shannon.

The problem is the line takes a circular meandering route. The spur will be more of the same.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119869211#Comment_119869211

If the fines are cheaper why not pay the fine

Poxyshamrock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119867492#Comment_119867492

the train crawls through cratloe and norwood/rhebogue so if speeds could be improved on this section and generally along the whole line then a 2 min stop at 2 or 3 extra stations wouldn’t be a problem.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119869321#Comment_119869321

That's true but there's also calls to add more stops, every stop is surely 5 min added to the journey

Poxyshamrock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119869365#Comment_119869365

Roughly 60-90 seconds in sixmilebridge at present. Also plans to introduce battery packs to existing trains to allows for more efficient acceleration and deceleration.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119869468#Comment_119869468

I had thought it would be a bit longer but I'd also assume there would be more passengers getting on or off the train at stops closest the city so that duration would increase

Poxyshamrock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871150#Comment_119871150

Not necessarily. Take the DART, the Luas or even the London Underground. Huge numbers of passengers boarding and alighting and dwell times at platforms tend not to be more than a minute or so. Doubt the numbers on any Limerick suburban system will even come close.

Quitelife

Looking at volumes of cars coming into the city every day its a no brainer that more rail/trains are required to reduce traffic congestion.

Hopefully the Limerick to Foynes passing Adare, Rathkeale etc gets up and running ASAP. Has the potential to take thousands of cars out of the daily gridlock, the line is there, obviously needs to be brought up to modern day levels but no purchasing land issues etc .

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872008#Comment_119872008

A lot of traffic isn't driving into the city, they're driving through the city because they don't have a real alternative. The LNDR is long overdue.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872008#Comment_119872008

It might be grand if you live in those towns and work in Raheen or the city. Not much use if you work in Plassey/Annacotty or work in Raheen, but don't live near the line. Quite a lot of the traffic will be going to/coming from Clare too. If the line was reopened to passengers (and there are currently no plans to do this), the reality is it would take very little traffic off the roads.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872266#Comment_119872266

No one is going to give up the car but the city is constantly expanding so we need to plan for future residents.

So you turn Patrickwell into the new Oranmore and it would be a great place for UHL staff, city centre workers and Raheen industrial estate workers and Mary I students.

letsseehere14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119869259#Comment_119869259

Dublin Airport needed a rail link 15 or 20 years ago. Current timeline shows it as getting Metrolink North completed in 2035. That is 13 years from now.

Shannon is a town of 10,000 people. It is situated between the 2nd (100,000), 3rd (80,000) and 12th (25,000) largest urban areas in the country. It is home to an international airport, with the longest runway in the country. It has 2 large industrial areas comprising over 500 acres. To put this in perspective, roughly, Raheen, Dock Road, Galvone, Ballysimon out to Northern Trust, Annacotty and Castletroy Industrial areas combined gives about 1,000 acres. Only double that of Shannon. An IT article from last year stated that about 10,000 people work in these industrial areas in Shannon. 10,000 people working there. Thats huge.

They need to plan now for a rail link to Shannon linking freight and passenger to Galway and Limerick because it will take minimum 10 years to complete. By which time it will definitely be needed.

breezy1985

Bending the train down after Sixmilebridge would be great but in the short term every little thing that can help the bus should be done.

I got it last week and the roll out of the leap card is a big help as are the new TFI buses. Just makes things a lot easier like hopping on a city bus.

Something they could do with at the airport though is a live departure screen. Was a lot of pretty nervous tourists unused to the traditionally late Irish buses.

source

The fact that they had the opportunity to do this when reinstating the Limerick - Galway line and decided against it should show they have no interest. The reason given was that the passenger numbers in the airport was too low to necessitate a rail link. They completely ignored all the workers commuting into the area daily and focused on the airport alone.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119897124#Comment_119897124

Virtually nobody will use it along the current alignment with a spur from Sixmilebridge.

It will simply take too long as you will spend most of your journey going the wrong direction.

Regular direct buses from multiple locations would be better.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119897774#Comment_119897774

Run a LUAS type thing out the middle of the dual carriageway instead - plenty of room in the median.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899797#Comment_119899797

The Luas which goes at 70kph would be slower than the road.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899851#Comment_119899851

"type thing" - I'm sure there's a faster version. Cars don't do 70kph in town though...

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900249#Comment_119900249

Trams don't do 70 in town either. So unless you want a monorail like they have in Ogdenville or North Haverbrook a tram isn't the magic solution some TDs have been pretending for years now.

Given that Dublin could do with more and Cork wants one I'de say we will see Star Trek transportation before a tram to Shannon.

Poxyshamrock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119897774#Comment_119897774

The safeguarded area for any rail link/spur is already outlined in the Clare County Development Plan.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901271#Comment_119901271

Yes I know but most of the line still goes the wrong direction and will take too long, be too infrequent and not enough population density for it to work.