Who has the right of way?

muddle84

So as i was driving up the road this morning and I went to overtake two cars that were travelling quite slow, just as i was side by side with the second car I was approaching a road on the right hand side of the road. I had seen a car coming up that road and figured they would be getting to the main road just as I was also but I had already started the overtake manouver. I slowed down a little to make sure they were at the main road before me and it gave me ample time to change what i was doing if that car decided to come out onto the main road and turn towards me. They came to the main road and didn't move so there was no problem but I'm just wondering if that car just looked to their right saw there was nothing coming and turned left onto the main road and ended up head on with me. Who would have been in the wrong?

The road is a broken line all the way along that stretch.

Miscreant

So, you were on the opposite side of the road, overtaking 2 cars while coming towards a junction? I would imagine if anything had actually happened, your road position at the time of the impact would determine who was at fault. It would not matter at that stage who had "right of way".

Cloudio9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058265505/who-has-the-right-of-way

They would be in the wrong as they're entering the road unsafely but that's not much consolation as you'd both possibly be quite seriously injured in this scenario.

The safer more defensive driving would be not to overtake when coming up to junctions....sounds like you anticipated what might happen and backed off anyway. I'm surprised I don't see more of these type collisions as a lot of people do seem to just look right when turning left.

dontmindme

If there were no road markings then I would think you had right of way and any car joining that road from another road would need to make sure their way was clear to do so. Maybe you could have sounded your horn also. Although at the same time, no point having right-of-way if you're dead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685219#Comment_119685219

I think right-of-way has large influence on decision who is at fault post accident.

Technically, I suppose you do....provided you're on a road of equal/greater importance, as they should be ceding to traffic already on that road, including you who is now driving on the wrong side of the road.

However, overtaking close to a hill, bend, narrow road, or junction is a grade 2 fault in the driving test. It's also a pretty stupid manouvre to be making, regardless of who is right/wrong. There's plenty of idiots who will check their right and pull out without checking left. I'm pretty certain you're supposed to yield right of way when overtaking also, though I'm open to correction on this as it's a bit hazy.

Blame lies with the council, I'd wager. There should be adequate signage and continuous white lines when approaching junctions like that, to remove any ambiguity.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058265505/who-has-the-right-of-way

You didn’t do anything illegal. You were on the road. Responsibility is on the car not on the road, but about to turn onto it. He/she turning onto it into oncoming traffic. More up to them to not turn onto the road under this condition

I’d say it’s a scenario we all think about when overtaking. Watching to see if someone enters the road as you’re approaching them.

ittakestwo

I think they would be at fault. You have to look both left and right when entering a road.

Just this week my mother won a court hearing regarding a road collusion she had been.

She was driving the wrong way out of a one way system car park. However the car that hit her went through a yield sign in the car park only looking right as they presumed nothing would be coming from the left as it was a one way system. The judge said you have to look left and right when going through yield or stops signs and no presumptions can be made.

Rmgblue

In future, please don’t over take while approaching a hazard. I’d like to think that’s common sense. You have no idea what way other road users will react in a panicked state. If you had crashed you would have been the cause of it regardless if you were to blame or not

1874

Responses here are concerning, most think OP was/would be in the right, OP was overtaking 2 cars and not in his lane, Id say the OP is wrong by a longshot, if that car pulled out, while they should check, but the OP says they saw the car in advance, and looks like they continued to drive on the wrong side of the road relying on the other driver seeing him and not pulling out, sounds like dangerous driving to me.

If anything happened, it seems a collision could have involved up to 4 vehicles while the OP was overtaking, I think it would be viewed that the OP was in the incorrect lane and overtaking wasn't safe or necessary.

Frustrating as it might be if people are driving slowly ahead of you, maybe the other drivers are right to be driving at the speed they are (road/weather conditions), or maybe the front car is slow and the next car doesn't deem it safe to pass first car. The roads dont sound like main roads by the OPs description and if you get stuck behind a slow coach, I think it's better to err on caution and not risk a collision.

kirving

Overtaking anywhere near a junction could be considered dangerous driving.

Is there a solid white line on your road, near the junction?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685582#Comment_119685582

Driving out onto a major road without looking to your left for hazards is also dangerous driving.

The other car has to check if the OP's road is clear before turning onto it. There's nothing about checking if it's clear on one side only, they must check it is clear full stop. If OP is driving down the wrong side of the road, even if he's not overtaking anyone and is just on a suicide mission, the road is not clear and the other car cannot legally enter that road. Irrespective of what OP is doing, ANYONE entering his road from another must give way to him. Even if there was a continuous white line and OP was wrong to cross it, the other car cannot drive into the road with careless abandon as he must yield to the OP.

OP has right of way (technically, at least).

That's not to say he'd be in the clear if an accident happened, which is separate to the right of way question. I would not like to gamble on what portion of blame he'd shoulder, but I guarantee it would be greater 0%.

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685602#Comment_119685602

No, it's broken white line all the way past the junction

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685634#Comment_119685634

I doubt he'd be in the clear at all, OP was in a position on the road he should not be (overtaking 2 cars while passing a junction) and that would hardly be any use if he simply ended up in a collision that ended up only in vehicle damage, never mind if it ended up in injuries or a fatality. Right of way doesn't confer an absolute right, the OP would be in the wrong, especially as he carried on doing what he was doing and admitted he saw the other vehicle coming and completely relied on the other person not pulling out, (hypothetical, as the other driver didnt pull out for some reason, maybe they checked, maybe it was just luck) had they pulled out, that wouldn't be right to do without checking, because you should check for the unexpected, that said, if the OPs vehicle wasn't in the wrong place and the person did pull out, no collision could occur. OP admits, impatient, overtook slow cars, saw another vehicle coming, relied on other driver not pulling out (they may have had a restricted view of the road) but its not reasonable for them to be met with oncoming traffic on their side of the road. In my view OP is in the wrong by a longshot, too many impatient drivers speeding and overtaking, overtaking more than 1 vehicle at a time is going to bring more risks, not worth it, what did the OP save in time? negligible at best. I get frustrated at people who seem like they are driving ridiculously slowly, what I dont do is compound that by dangerous maneuvers/overtaking multiple vehicles. Sometimes road design comes into play, but you have to drive with regard of other road users, the road and conditions present at the time.

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685582#Comment_119685582

I did not stop the overtake manoeuvre but I did slow down enough that I would have more than enough time to get back in my lane or come to a complete stop if the other car had turned left towards me. I was side by side with the second car when I saw him.

Also worth noting I was doing 95kmhr when I saw the other car approaching from the right and slowed down to about 80kmhr until I saw what the other car was going to do. The cars I was overtaking was doing about 60kmhr

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685582#Comment_119685582

It's a national primary route that I was driving on. The road joining from the right is a single lane bothrín

TherapyBoy

You were overtaking when there was a junction on the other side of the road. I don’t think “right of way” comes into it. I’d take it as a learning experience & stop overtaking there 👍🏼

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685813#Comment_119685813

Gave up reading after 2 lines, maybe edit it and include some paragraphs and punctuation to make it easier to decipher.

What I will say is this:

1) I never said OP would be in the clear at all

2) "OP was in a position on the road he should not be" means SFA in terms of who has right of way. OP was on the road, the other car wanted to enter that road so they MUST yield to traffic already on the road they wish to join, which includes OP. Therefore, OP has right of way, regardless of the legality of his position.

3) You're not supposed to yield to traffic who are compliant with the traffic laws, you're supposed to yield to ALL TRAFFIC in this scenario

4) Clearer road markings would make all this moot

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685824#Comment_119685824

Was the other road even a public highway or was it a private entrance. Given you said there was broken white lines where this lane meets the primary road would make me think it is private and it was not actually a legal junction.

The driver turning on to the main road HAS TO LOOK LEFT AND RIGHT before they do so regardless. If they relied on the presumption there would be nothing in that lane their defence would be doomed in court.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058265505/who-has-the-right-of-way

you may have technically had the right of way

but overtaking at junctions puts you squarely in dangerous driving territory

lawred2

Although I suppose it prob depends on context - was it even a junction or some sort of private access road? But even those are generally sign posted!

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685910#Comment_119685910

OP says its a road

Wildly Boaring

I've seen 2 crashes in the last 2 years cycling.

Both happened this way.

1. I was cycling and car overtaking. Car pulled from side road toward them. No big deal as all very slow. Side road car mounted path and avoided but damaged his car
2. Old driver overtook me slowly. 2 cars overtook me and then continued to overtake him. Car pulled from sideroad. 3 cars ended up pretty banged up. Nobody injured. Old driver plodded off oblivious

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685838#Comment_119685838

Yeah I completely agree that's what it is. I didn't know the junction was there. Put it up here out of interest as I wasn't sure who would be in the right. But so far it just seems to be opinions on both sides and ko clear direction from a rules of the road stance.

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685884#Comment_119685884

It's a road, not private at all!

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685855#Comment_119685855

If you cant be bothered to read a persons replies,that points to you not wanting to read or hear someone else views imo, why even highlight that? why even reply if thats the case? Anyway, not here to argue, pointing out I think what the OP did was wrong and imo he would have been the primary factor in the cause of an accident had the other person pulled out. Too many impatient drivers, overtaking unsafely or too many vehicles at a time.

Any Right of way does not mean you can forge on, I dont think right of way applies what with the OP being on wrong side of the road.

You cant rely on road markings or signage everywhere for everything, thats why Rules of the Road highlight, proceed with caution.

Op admits they overtook 2 cars going too slow for their liking (its possible the first car was going way too slow or maybe driving to the conditions AND the second car overtaking either driving to the conditions and not overtaking because it is not safe), the OP saw other person and completely relied upon that person doing the right thing. Just because National primary roads are signed for 100kmh doesn't necessarily mean you should drive at that speed, OP says they slowed from 95 to 80, but thats negligible if the other driver had pulled out.

Im not a legal expert but imo if there was a collision, I cant see how he would not be in the wrong, but thats the least of the problem, if he hit another vehicle at that speed, could end up injured or worse for both drivers, it wont matter who is in the wrong. Other than seeing a map of the location, it sounds to me like the OP shouldnt have been overtaking 2 vehicles anyway, I think the OP was substantially at fault for doing what they did and thats considering nothing happened, appears either not to know what they did wasn't right,or looking for an opinion that supports the view they really believe already, that if things went pear shaped the other person was in the wrong anyway.

imo better to take this as a good learning and not to overtake too many cars at once or where other problems may present. Not every road can be perfect, with ideal opportunities for overtaking and signs in advance to warn of all things.

Thats my opinion on the situation

If you can't be bothered to have the courtesy of typing your points out in a coherent and legible manner, then you can't get your knickers in a twist when others refuse to engage.

OP being in the wrong is immaterial to the other road users' responsibility in ensuring the road he's joining is clear. It has no bearing whatsoever.

If OP wasn't overtaking but was otherwise breaking the law (eg speeding), does the other car have free reign to do whatever they want and go careering out into traffic without any consideration? No, of course not. So why is the situation described any different?

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686226#Comment_119686226

You seem to be looking for an argument, it wasn't exactly War and Peace, one paragraph covered it. If you couldn't understand it maybe you should improve your reading comprehension, but it seems to me you're more unhappy you read a post you didn't agree with or that disagreed with you, because your latest post shows you are still getting snotty. The OP was in the wrong imo, people will disagree with you in life and on boards, deal with it.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685219#Comment_119685219

A few years ago I had such a collision. I was overtaking and a car came out from a side road. I couldn't pull in and we crashed. We were able to walk away from it but vehicles were destroyed. It was left to the insurance companies to assign blame. I was found to be 65% at fault with the other party 35%.

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686939#Comment_119686939

Sorry for your troubles! Glad to hear everyone walked away! Thanks for sharing though, finally some facts!!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686592#Comment_119686592

Well able to deal with pretty much everything, thanks. Just can't be bothered deciphering a badly written wall of text.

I agree the op was in the wrong. I said as much in my first post. That doesn't mean that the other car can do what they want without blame, and it certainly doesn't mean he no longer has right of way.

moonage

It somewhat depends on whether there was a sign indicating an upcoming junction. 

If there wasn't a sign (and the OP also says there were broken lines up to the junction) then an overtake would be justified, provided it was done safely. The driver that pulled out from the side road would be at fault.

If there was a sign, then an overtake shouldn't be attempted. If it was attempted and resulted in a collision, then I would imagine that both parties would be equally at fault.

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687789#Comment_119687789

So Interestingly enough I drove the same stretch of road today and there is no sign warning of a junction at all. There is a pole where I assume the sign was once upon a time but its at a 45 degree angle and must have been hit by a car I guess!

Wishbone Ash

Just a query about a similar type of scenario where I have no choice but to drive on the 'wrong' side of the road.

Line of cars all parked up right up to a T junction with a road of greater importance. To make any progress, I'm forced to drive on the other side which is awkward approaching the junction. If another motorist from the major road enters the road I'm on, would I be deemed to be driving carelessly (even though I've no choice) should a collision occur? Is the driver entering the minor road obliged to check that their way is clear (in the minor road) before entering?

I've had a few close calls but thankfully at slow speeds so plenty of time to react.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687789#Comment_119687789

From what I recall the road had recently ben resurfaced (really smooth) and there wern't any central lines yet. There was no prior sign indicating a side road (small road).

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704928#Comment_119704928

Are you allowed overtake on roads without central lines/ or where there is ongoing road works?

zg3409

OP, I think you had right of way, however a dashed line only means you can cross it if safe to do so. It does not mean overtaking is a good idea. For example dashed lines are often to allow overtaking stopped vehicles or to access somewhere.

Overtaking 2 cars is dodgy, heck overtaking one slow car near a right turn there is a high chance the slow car may intend turning right but has not yet indicated or may never indicate. People driving slow being overtook often have no idea there is a car about to overtake them. They are in their own little world. Often I get flashed by the car I have just safely overtook, as they were shocked to see me.

You need to be 110% sure you are proceeding safely, pedestrians, cars, tractors coming out of fields, cars reversing out of driveways are all common unexpected serious dangers.

I tend to drive fast but I am on the lookout always and I brake on hidden bends and if cars around me are acting suspicious. I slow around built up areas with driveways I only overtake when safe to do so, often stuck behind slow cars for 10+ minutes. If I am in no hurry I don't even bother overtake due to risks involved. It's one of the most dangerous things you can do as a driver and often un necessary.