Learner permit and (sober?) licensed driver

chewed

Quick question... my son is learning to drive and is on a learner permit, so myself and wife obviously need to sit in with him at all times.

Last night I got him to drive me into city centre and I had a few pints. On the way home, as he was driving, I was thinking to myself whether on not there's any law that the licensed driver needs to be under the limit?

hoodie6029

It stands to reason that you are in a fit state to supervise the learner. All I can find is a Irish Times article from 2008 saying the RSA was looking to bring it in as an offence. But can’t see that it was ever passed.

Lots of legal questions spring to mind on this that could make it an interesting thread in the Legal forum.

Regardless of a law being in place, probably not the wisest thing to do and not the best situation for a learner to be put in.

Wishbone Ash

It's no different to being a driver - you must be fit to drive the vehicle.

mct1

If you're asking can you be breathalysed the answer is no, not yet anyway. If you're wondering if you have a moral and social responsibility to stay sober when accompanying a learner driver then, obviously, yes you do.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698451#Comment_119698451

Since there's no requirement for the accompanying driver to be insured in the vehicle what can an accompanying driver do? They don't have dual controls and even sober you'd do well to grab the wheel or pull the handbrake, both can make the situation worse. If the learner is capable of driving into a town at night then the accompanying driver is just there to tick a box, if the learner isn't capable of driving into a town at night they should be in a dual control car.

chewed

Thanks for the feedback. Firstly, I certainly wasn't drunk or incapable of giving guidance to him. I may have been slightly over the legal limit (if I was breathalyzed). My son has been driving for months now and very confident, so I wouldn't have done this if he was a new driver or didn't have any town/city experience.

My question was really around the legal requirements for accompanying drivers as I can't find any information about it.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698460#Comment_119698460

what difference would insurance make? The accompanying driver can assess whether the person is fit to drive without dual controls and decide whether to accompany them or not.

I see your train of thought here. Next stop ‘sure, just let them drive alone on their second provisional, like in the good ol’ days’. There are good reasons that we don’t allow that anymore.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698902#Comment_119698902

This is a parent accompanying their child and even it wasn't how do you know someone who you've never being in car with is fit to drive without getting in the car with them? They've had lessons with an ADI so you have to assume that they are fit to drive, I've been in cars with people who passed their tests and won't repeat that mistake as they where terrible drivers.

I don't want to go back to bad old days. But it's illogical to require an untrained person to be responsible for the actions of another when they can't do anything. Stepped licences like Germany, Oz and NZ would be a better option than having a person who passed a relatively easy test 2 years previously, or worse 50 years ago, and may have never sat in a car since sit beside a learner.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058265501/learner-permit-and-sober-licensed-driver

It makes no difference in the law. There’s no official rule about it, that’s one of those *should not* rules rather than a *must not*. the rules are you MUST have a full licence, in the category your supervising & you MUST have held it for a minimum of 2 consecutive years (no bans in between).

That’s not to say should you be stopped at a checkpoint or something a Garda wouldn’t make a bit of a deal about it if he could smell drink off you, but as long as the drivers clear they can’t really do much.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700409#Comment_119700409

I definitely don’t drive alone on my learners permit, but if I did, not that I do, I’d see plenty of people with full licences who are far more requiring supervision than I do.

I 100% agree though that unless their an ADI, they’re just not qualified to supervise. And as mentioned in a car without dual controls how can the person sitting in the passenger seat be of any use?

Not that I drive solo, like I said, but if I did do that, I can guarantee you my driving wouldn’t be any different with or without someone in the passenger seat.

But I don’t do that, obviously.

*clears throat*.

norabattie

I was told the same there lately in the pub. My daughter was working behind the bar so I had a couple of drinks. Was told straight up it's illegal. Went to a guard about it who said yes. Apparently it is. Not sure what legislation is there but that's the information I've been given.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698460#Comment_119698460

I have taken over the wheel from the passanger side before. Heading head on for a police car. In the past I pulled the handbrake for a driver heading for a bend too fast. There is a lot can be done such as "watch our for that cyclist with no lights"

An experienced driver can read the road ahead and predict outcomes long before extreme action is needed. Learners are often concentrating on gears and keeping in lane, not necessarily looking at other cars behaviour and possible problems 10+ seconds away from happening.

From a legal point of view I suspect it's unclear, but remember is someone dies all bets are off. Learner drivers are liable to select wrong gear and get totally distracted and veer out of lane at any time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700499#Comment_119700499

If I tell you it’s illegal to leave the toilet seat up and a garda tells you the same does that mean it is?

Theres no law requiring the sponsor driver to be equipped to take the wheel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700585#Comment_119700585

If you pulled the hand brake to stop the car you wouldn’t be getting back into mine anyway. That’s incredibly dangerous. Just tell them to hit the brakes..

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700499#Comment_119700499

A lot of Gardai have no idea about the law. Plenty of people have been told by the Gardai that they need a 4x4 to pull a twin axle trailer.

hoodie6029

While there isn’t a specific road traffic offence you could be charged with Reckless Endangerment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703393#Comment_119703393

You could be charged with murder if they wanted, it doesn’t mean they’ll be prosecuted. If it’s not against the law that’s the end of it really. Just because they may encounter a jumped up Garda with too much time on their hands doesn’t make it illegal.

hoodie6029

I don’t think you understand the nuances of the legal system or the broad strokes either come to think of it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704318#Comment_119704318

No I don’t really I won’t pretend that I do. I’m obviously being facetious, you’re not going to be charged with a crime you didn’t commit, that’s my point. And even if a garda decided to charge you with this or that without actual legislation then they might as well just charge their phone, a judge won’t convict if the law isn’t there. It’s a simple matter in my mind:

“what law was contravened?”

“uh..”

Case dismissed

And I actually did a bit of goolging and it turns out Cork FM actually got confirmation from the Gardaí that a passenger can’t be breathalysed anyway!

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703393#Comment_119703393

No you couldn't because A. There's no offence of 'Reckless Endangerment' in this country, it's Endangerment and B. A prosecution for it requires the DPP's direction and they wouldn't be giving it in those circumstances, you'd be laughed out of it submitting that complete nonsense.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700585#Comment_119700585

Jaysus, that's a lot of passenger action.

Did you shoot a man in Reno just to watch him die?

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698902#Comment_119698902

Well I drove for nearly 2 years on my learner permit unaccompanied due to CoVid 19 restrictions but if I had followed the rules, I'd be unemployed and still a learner driver due to the fact that only my wife is a full licensed driver that is anyway free to be an accompanying driver

hoodie6029

Didn’t realise that there were so many barristers frequenting the learning to drive forum 😂

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704318#Comment_119704318

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119714443#Comment_119714443

Your comments seem designed to give an impression of knowledge while all they give is an impression of windbag buffoonery. Having established that you didn’t know what you were talking about but would have been better to remain quiet. As Sir Humphrey would have said, si tacuisses, philiosophus mansisses.

Spook_ie

Not sure about here in Ireland but certainly required to be sober in UK and other countries like Australia.

Did find a 2008 Times link that said they were going to introduce drink limits for supervising drivers but don't know if it ever got passed

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/those-who-accompany-learners-to-face-drink-drive-laws-1.941840

Spook_ie

Was just perusing the 2006 road traffic act and would wonder if as a supervisor of the learner you are in fact "in charge" of the vehicle.

(4) A member of the Garda Sı´ocha´na, who is on duty at a check-point, may stop any mechanically propelled vehicle at the checkpoint and, without prejudice to any other powers (including the powers under section 12 (inserted by the Act of 2003) of the Act of 1994) conferred on him or her by statute or at common law, may require

a person in charge of the vehicle—

(a) to—

(i) provide (by exhaling into an apparatus for indicating the presence of alcohol in the breath) a specimen of his or her breath,

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960157#Comment_119960157

The driver is in charge. a fully licenced passenger is only supervising.

Tippman24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058265501/learner-permit-and-sober-licensed-driver

You must be sober also if supervising a learner driver. You can be charged under Section 5 of the Road Traffic Act 2010, as being in charge of the vehicle. The main words here are "in charge". Section 4 of the same Act relates to the offence of driving. The drink driving limits apply to both the driver and the person in charge.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975631#Comment_119975631

Do you have a link for that?

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975631#Comment_119975631

in charge 'with intent to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle (but not driving or attempting to drive it)'

so, unless there is some other section that actually supports this idea, thats a no on that one.....

Tippman24

I typed in section 5 of Road Traffic Act 2010. I don't know how to do links etc. Showing my age.

Melodeon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978774#Comment_119978774

Here you go:

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/25/section/5/enacted/en/html#sec5

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978774#Comment_119978774

Subsection 8:

(8) In a prosecution for an offence under this section it shall be presumed that the defendant intended to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle concerned until he or she shows the contrary.

You cannot drive a vehicle from the passenger seat

Bigmac1euro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700585#Comment_119700585

Hahahahaha. You should lose your license. I really hope I’m never near you on the road.

actually just in general I wouldn’t trust you with a screwdriver. Are you mental whipping the handbrake up on a car? Just tell the driver to slow down mother of god.

Youre deffo talking wallop.

Tippman24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978829#Comment_119978829

That is true, but you can be in charge of a vehicle. In the scenario listed you have a learner driver accompanied by a person with a full driving licence. The person with the full licence is considered to be in charge of the vehicle. Section 4 of the RTA refers to driving the vehicle. Section 5 of the same act refers to the person considered to be in charge f the vehicle.

Witcher

'The person with the full licence is considered to be in charge of the vehicle.'

No, they're not.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119981001#Comment_119981001

Subsection 8 applies to all of section 5. A passenger is never in charge. You keep repeating they are without backing it up. I quoted the relevant legislation which contradicts you opinion.

Tippman24

If you look up "what does it mean to be in charge of a motor vehicle" on web you will see some legal opinion on the matter. A good friend of mine is a Garda and he advised me some years ago of the particular Act/Section.

I can remember a case in local paper some years ago as the driver in question lived on same street as myself. There was an appeal taken against a drink driving conviction down this way some years ago. Gardai had come on a vehicle with engine running, but stationary, on road. Driver asleep at wheel. Woke Driver and bagged him and was found to be over the limit. court Conviction appealed and and driver won case, as his Solicitor argued successfully that he was not driving the vehicle.

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986699#Comment_119986699

Completely different situation. An accompanying driver is not in charge of the vehicle.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986699#Comment_119986699

Stop digging. You cannot be in charge from the passenger seat. The legislation makes it clear you must be driving to be convicted of drink driving.

Tippman24

I think I will retire my shovel and pick axe from this.