tell me why this won't work - community generation

TheWonderLlama

So,

musing on the energy crisis for households and trying to come up with solutions, I had the following thought.

What if you have a community, lets say a block of flats in Dublin, to keep things simple, and everything is powered by electricity. Heat, lights, water pumps, etc.

those people can't fit solar, can't fit heat pumps, can't insulate their flat more.

So lets just say they form a company, and buy a bit of land down the country with a grid connection. They then buy solar panels (+ batteries) and install them on the land. The solar panels generate sufficient electricity to match what is consumed in the block of flats. If all the residents are customers of the community electricity company and it has authorisation to sell electricity, would that work? What am I missing, apart from a load of cash to buy the land and panels.

is there any technical or bureaucratic reason why this can't be done? I might be naive here. Educate me.

antoinolachtnai

Yes, could be done and makes a lot more engineering sense than rooftop panels.

The customers wouldn’t all need to be in the one building.

There is a structure provided for under the renewable energy directive to allow for this.

There are some serious bureaucratic issues, in particular tax and metering.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058265362/tell-me-why-this-wont-work-community-generation

Solar panels are utterly uselss at this latitude. For four months of the year they generate next to nothing. Even over a full year they will only generate about 10-12% of the panels rating. Even if you were to carpet a few squre km of prime agricultural land with panels so that paltry 10% was equal to the entire energy use of the building, the batteries would cost as much as the apartment block or more, not to mention what the land and cabling would cost.

Nermal

The batteries would literally cost as much as the apartments they're powering.

TheWonderLlama

ok, batteries are costly. Gotcha.

I know solar isnt the most efficient at this latitude, but it is what it is. A wind turbine would be more costly and have years of objections.

So, if we take 100 apartments, each using the average per annum, (12,000 kwh) thats 1.2Mwh. round it up and you have 1.5Mwh

what does a plant runt to in cost these days, a bar a MW? So thats €1.5m plus install, connection, planning, licences, etc, etc.

BUT! households using less in summer and more in winter when panels are producing more in summer and less in winter. So how to counter that and not waste excess?

I thought batteries could help for load balancing, etc. but they may be expensive. Fair enough. Whats the other options?

Good luck persuading landlords representing 80% of the properties in any particular apartment complex to stump up cash on which they have no prospect of getting a return.

JMcL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058265362/tell-me-why-this-wont-work-community-generation

It's certainly doable and there's a lot of research going on into ways and means of bringing it about. There are a couple of main stumbling blocks: 1) regulatory inertia - nothing is going to happen without the CRU or equivalent saying so, and 2) It's really not in the interests of the suppliers for it to happen - why would they want me selling/giving excess energy to my neighbour when they can just take it as spill for free or as is now the case with at least some of them, a nominal sum?

It's not entirely straightforward as there are issues over MEC (max export capacity) to think of, and ESB networks (i.e. the grid operator as opposed to the supplier) are going to be very cautious around that, though there are signs of progress on this front

Some countries such as Switzerland are well down the road to enabling it, but you probably won't be surprised to hear that we're lagging somewhat

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680812#Comment_119680812

Get electricity from the grid?

CreadanLady

Technically possible, but economically unviable. In the extreme.

No-body would be interested in it anyway, unless you live in an apartment block full of solar nuts who are willing to break their holes financially for the sake of it.

I think you underestimate the amount of work and cost involved. How will you finance it? Unless you have millions just sitting there, no lender will lend money for this sort of amatuer stuff.

Are you really going to build/pay for an ESB networks substation at the point of interface to the grid? That alone could cost €250k plus.

Planning permission, design, environmental reports, etc etc. None of that comes cheap.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680481#Comment_119680481

Care to back up your 10% with actual numbers? Other than just pub talk.

1kW of panels will generate about 890kWh in Ireland per year. With optimal direction.

That prediction is on historical data. It's pretty accurate as a prediction.

Don't believe me? Here's the website

https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/#PVP

My panels have performed within 10% of the estimate.

Ireland's pretty good for solar, panels work well in the cold.

@TheWonderLlama are you thinking something like this:

https://youtu.be/AbIF3kB4EtY

eusap

In eastern Europe you see a lot more District Heating, one central boiler providing hot water/heating to flat complexes and it seems to work well (gas is cheap) and i think they pay a fixed fee like water charges.

But for electricity i guess this would be like setting up the old Group Water Schemes where a group of people come together to form a utility but in effect they would end up being another power company as they would need to sell there generated power to the grid and buy it back and resell to the residents and then you would need to meter each apartment and setup a billing system etc....

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058265362/tell-me-why-this-wont-work-community-generation

They are selling to the grid and buying back from the grid at a much higher price so compared to installing your own panels it's a bit like filling your car with petrol but holding the nozzle a good bit back from the car so nearly half of it spills on the ground below. Except that what you spill on the ground automatically falls into the tank of some billionaire's superyacht.

A better system would be if the whole block of flats was directly connected to said solar farm & battery and the entire building only drew from the grid when its batteries are depleted. They will prevent that system arising through bureaucracy because it would require 100% participation and everything that's registered as a house is entitled to have its own grid connection and MPRN. At the very least you'd have to have the wiring for both systems available in each apartment

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680481#Comment_119680481

How can they be utterly useless if they are producing for the other 8 months?

Your 10%-12% of rating, I assume you are including hours of darkness to come up with that figure. I don't think even the most dimwitted in society believe solar panels work in the dark.

Anybody with an EV is absolutely quids in in a big way when they have solar setup correctly.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680889#Comment_119680889

Abstract: Long-term monthly average daily solar radiation values on horizontal surfaces at 20 locations in Ireland were used to model the performance of a 1.72 kWp grid-connected PV system. Global solar radiation on horizontal surfaces varied between 865.1 and 1,127.9 kWh/m2/yr with a mean of 947.9 kWh/m2/yr. Annual energy yields varied between 869 and 1,156 960 kWh/kWp with a mean of 960 kWh/kWp. The capacity factor for the PV system varied between 9.9 and 13.2% while the mean was 11.0%

https://arrow.tudublin.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=dubencon2

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680973#Comment_119680973

Beacause you need power 24/7/365 and you need the most energy in winter. If a cloud blows over a solar panel, the output drops about 80% almost instantly. This is one of the cloudiest countries in Europe. In an entire year, only about 14.5% of all the hours in the year are of direct sunshine - 86% of the time it's either pitch darkness or cloudy. To make solar panels useful, you need an application that doesn't care when it gets power or batteries or some other energy storage, which are expensive.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680997#Comment_119680997

Yeah, do you even know what that means? Their numbers are coming in bang on what my prediction said.

>>"Even over a full year they will only generate about 10-12% of the panels rating."

Its the amount of global solar radiation that is converted to power.. It does not mean panels only produce 10% of their rated power. Panels are about 18-19% efficient in lab conditions.

Playing about with JRC, the same panels in Spain will generate about 50% more power than in ireland, In the middle of the sahara, Its about 100% more. (and possibly less, due to de-rating because of temperature, once panels go above 25C they start generating less power)

So yeah that numbers about correct. 10% of annual global solar radiation. Although the max is about 18-19%

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681037#Comment_119681037

Yea I don't get it. Mine are working grand and I think so are everyone else's?

DC999

1st off, any clean energy creation if a good thing in my mind. But can't break the bank or money is better elsewhere. So 1 doesn't need to compete with the other. More types are better. Solar for when sun is shining (based on light levels not temp), wind is good in winter when solar is low and at night.... hydro for 'burstable' peak times...

The largest wind turbines in the world (as in newest ones) generate power for 1 house for a day in one turn (7 seconds). But the cost of those is massive and they are offshore with tens of them setup. It’s ~5 years from planning to the turbine spinning connected to the grid. UK impoverished housing estate has formed a co-op to setup their own on the land within the estate (large complex of flats afaik). And they got funding for it and being built.

Our house solar (which 1 love) takes hours in summer to do that. Not seconds. But...the roof space is available and free and doesn’t take up farm land. Cost under 10k per house roughly. Could the State roll out solar to all houses it owns and it then gets paid for what they create? Solar can be live much faster that turbines (but it’s micro energy creation with a small m). Though is you have tens of thousands of micros….

In terms of competing with usual space like farm land, some countries are adding floating solar ‘farms’ on lakes so doesn’t use the land. Costs more (as they need to be on a floating surface and maintenance costs would be higher), but land is free as the state owns it. Other countries are trying strips of solar panels in the middle of farm land - so doesn’t impact the growing. Farmer then gets 2 incomes. 

UK has less farm solar space used than the land used by golf clubs. Do we ban golf clubs as they take up farm land? I'm being a bit ridiculous of course.

TheWonderLlama

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680829#Comment_119680829

See, I have a plan for that as well. 70% funding for plant from finance house. Balance from private investors. Repayments from bills to residents. 7-10 year repayment schedule. Plant lasts 25 years. Profits repaid to shareholders (residents)

cnocbui

Capacity factor, in terms of solar panels, is the ratio of actual annual energy output to the theoretical maximum, which is defined in the panels rating.

And that theoretical maximum is the total hours in a year, not the total daylight hours.

The net capacity factor is the unitless ratio of actual electrical energy output over a given period of time to the theoretical maximum electrical energy output over that period.[1] The theoretical maximum energy output of a given installation is defined as that due to its continuous operation at full nameplate capacity over the relevant period.

Here's the capacity factors for some solar installations in Scotland:

TheWonderLlama

I think you underestimate the amount of work and cost involved. How will you finance it? Unless you have millions just sitting there, no lender will lend money for this sort of amatuer stuff.

Are you really going to build/pay for an ESB networks substation at the point of interface to the grid? That alone could cost €250k plus.

Planning permission, design, environmental reports, etc etc. None of that comes cheap.

ok, this is where it could/would fall down.

Financing can be done. There are outfits who will fund solar plant up to 70% (although they may want a PPA agreement with a better covenant than a bunch of apartment residents) and balance from private investors with a hefty rate of return.

the grid connection could be a problem alright. I hear ESB take forever with them, is that right? Planning, design, environmental impact reports will all have to be paid for alright.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681019#Comment_119681019

The feed in tariff helps a lot there. As does an EV battery or a battery as part of your PV setup.

Combine PV, EV, batteries and night rate electricity and you are really onto something sweet.

Panels are useful, I don't have them, yet, you seem to be on your own claming they are"utterly useless" in Ireland.

But sure you are right and we are all wrong.

TheWonderLlama

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680961#Comment_119680961

But if their energy provider is actually producing some of the electricity, then it is an offset, no? Or is it because teh offtake is remote from the feed in that there's a buy and sell of energy?

yeah it would be ideal to have the solar on site, but having the block of flats directly connected to said solar farm isn't feasible. Same for most apartment dwellers in cities.

TheWonderLlama

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680889#Comment_119680889

yeah, thats kind of what i was thinking alright. There's one of those in Ireland, must dig out some info about it.

Bob is a good skin. Does a lot of EV reviews.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681161#Comment_119681161

Yea if said company became a licensed MPRN-acceptor it would probably get a favourable deal. But then you have the likes of Community Power charging an eyewatering 77c per kwh (https://communitypower.ie/tariffs/). Community power seem like a wholesome crowd so I suspect the game is rigged against them in some way due to their diminutive size

I have experienced the same when I worked for a 'switchless' broadband reseller, somehow the wholesale price they were offered was worse than what the likes of Vodafone were selling directly to the consumer for

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681137#Comment_119681137

Why are you benchmarking against something which is irrelevant, like including hours of darkness, early and late in the day etc., which everybody discounts as unproductive time anyway.

Somebody posted their bill the other day, it had something about units consumed versus the same period 12 months ago.

I suggest you go look for it, clearly PV is far from "utterly useless" which is your claim.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681145#Comment_119681145

I think people are getting a bit confused here; You can use taxes and subsidies and tarrifs to make people think that almost anything is a great idea and the best thing since sliced bread.

I have been purely talking about the technical realities of solar, not the government distorted financial proposition offered to early adopters.

Just look at diesel vs petrol. Gormly and his idiot Green party and his idiot coalition partners made diesels look like the best thing since sliced bread to your average Irish person. That doesn't mean diesel is really cheaper than petrol, or better, it just means the government used financial distortions and incentives to make it appear so. Now diesel enthusiasts can happily breath carcinogens all day long while thinking how financially smart they are. Way to go...

Petrol would normally be significantly cheaper than diesel because when you refine a barrel of oil, you get a lot more petrol from it than diesel.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681209#Comment_119681209

Right now they are subsidising gas-generated grid power to the tune of 600e per user. Good few people here put in solar with no grant and it's paying off for them

TheWonderLlama

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681190#Comment_119681190

Gotcha, yeah, I guess this is the barrier to entry the main players have to keep the small guys out. The wholesale price is high at the bottom end, but lower the more you buy. Preferring large buyers.

Kurooi

You don't just put down solar panels and leave them be. They will require constant security, maintenance, insurance. So now you're looking at running costs. You will charge them to the residents, right? And from time to time that won't cover it, say 5 years from now you can reasonably expect to add some panels, replace existing ones and that will be a big spend. No way in hell will any of these residents agree to pay when you come over with one big bill, they can just switch to a regular provider. So you should charge them over time in advance, a little rainy day fund on top of the running costs you're incurring.

You just invented bills. And you're running a regular company. Back to square one.

All that said, I understand where the idea is coming from. It makes no sense to me at all that currently I see regular people putting up tiny solar panels on their rooftops. They will often face the wrong way (because the person doesn't have a south facing roof) or be shaded, the panels would be substantialy better and cheaper if they were bought in bulk. It makes no sense they pay for individual batteries, installation and wiring up their house to produce utilities. It's so uncoordinated.

CreadanLady

That is why we have the likes of ESB networks. To run a grid so you don't have to.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681209#Comment_119681209

Well now you are putting a different slant on it and I get where you are coming from.

For example they are incentiving EVs while ignoring the shortage of battery components and pretending evs are green which they are not.

It still doesn't make PV panels utterly useless in Ireland. During summer it helps us shut more fossil fuel plants off and for longer.

I don't see a lot of government incentives for PV either, the grant is similar to the vat you pay and by the looks of things a diy install will save the grant amount and maybe more, with a realistic payback if it's all done right.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680481#Comment_119680481

I'm genuinely surprised at that post that panels are utterly useless at this latitude.

I'm 2 years into my solar plan in an ordinary estate 4bed semi. If seasonal trend over the last two years continues I'll projecting the following for 2023.

9.8MW solar PV generation

This includes 0.9MW over the 4 bad months

88% self consumption

2.4MW into our EVs, about 15,400kms equivalent

Covering house load and hot water demand fully for 8months of the year

Just Dec and Jan will actually be "bad months", I'll still be covering house loads most days

If I was out the country without the amount of neighbourhood shading I have, then all the above would be much better

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680997#Comment_119680997

If someone wants to have a debate about the technical merits and link in white papers, that's awesome - but if your going to do that.......do try and link in papers which have been published somewhat recently. Using articles which were published in 2009 is hardly a good model to base opinions on. The state of the solar landscape has moved on since then. Here is that same article this time with a date on it ...

"Economic and Environmental Performance Analysis of PV Systems for Dome" by Lacour Ayompe, Aidan Duffy et al. (tudublin.ie)

While the performance of the panels themselves have increased perhaps 3-4% since back then, they are however about 90% cheaper than back in 2009.

Will solar panels get cheaper? (updated for 2022) (thesolarnerd.com)

Looking at the ecomonics today compared to a decade ago is like comparing a lightbulb to a brick. What wasn't feasible in 2008 has no bearing on todays market.

paulbok

Rather than individuals/estates/blocks trying to setup their own supply network, would dedicated investment funds for establishing renewable energy projects not be a better option? Rather than it supplying power directly, investors would get dividends from the power sold to the grid to offset against regular bills.

With the sqM limits about to be finally dropped, it could make sense for say a small town to set up a community scheme and blanket all available roof space with panels, with pro-rata return on investment and roof space made available. Local county council could invest to run public buildings/lighting etc. A hundred or so house and business roofs, schools, community centre, sports clubs buildings would yield a decent area for panels.

I think someone on here was proposing something like that investment fund a few weeks ago, but it would need government assistance, grants and tax exemptions on profits to make it feasible. Getting the public to invest in rolling out significant quantities of renewables would certainly speed up hitting the target's required

blackbox

What the OP is talking about is a group investment.

It might be a better investment to buy some barren land in Spain or some other country with lots of sunshine if you are going to install solar panels. You would need to research feed in tariffs, but you would certainly be generating a lot more electricity per hectare and those hectares would probably be cheaper. Maintenance costs might also be lower.

antoinolachtnai

The whole point is to give regular people access to cheap renewable electricity to use at home

You won’t be able to use that cheap Spanish daytime electricity in your own home.

if you owned a share of a wind farm and a share of a PV farm in Ireland it would yield electricity that could be offset against your electricity bill.

blackbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119683556#Comment_119683556

The income from the wind farm could be offset against your electricity bill. The grids are all interconnected.

What's the difference?

antoinolachtnai

The Spanish grid is not interconnected with the Irish grid to any meaningful extent.

The little indirect interconnection that exists isn’t coordinated.

Even when there is a connection to France it will be tiny compared to the demand in Ireland.

as a result prices in ireland and Spain won’t rise and fall in parallel.

UID0

Solar panels really shouldn't be used on agricultural land unless they are not having a detrimental effect on land use. An example from the Netherlands is

Dutch grower places solar panels over strawberries (hortidaily.com)

where solar panels are used to provide the shade that was required for growing strawberries. Putting them on houses is useful because the roof surface is already there, and there isn't a requirement for a dedicated grid connection and all of the infrastructure that goes with it.

The costs would not be as simple as 1kWh in from the solar farm = 1 kWh out at the apartment block. There are transmission losses to account for 17.2% (8.6% on generation side and 8.6% on consumption side)(CRU2022089-Electricity-Distribution-Network-Allowed-Revenues-2023-DUoS-Tariffs-and-DLAFs-2022-23-FINAL.pdf). There's also matching of production and use. The electrical market is balanced every half hour, so production in is paid at the market rate for that half hour, and the customer supply companies are charged based on their usage for that half hour. Putting 1kWh in when the price is cheaper does not allow you to take 1kWh out when the price is more expensive.

It would be a better option for the apartment owners to invest in an electricity generation company and put the dividends towards their electricity bills.

antoinolachtnai

Transmission losses are nothing like 40 percent. They are in the order of 10 percent to 15 percent. the figure you are referring to in the statistics is something completely different.

The challenge of balancing wind+PV with demand is much smaller than matching domestic PV. (The initial outlay cost for a kW of farm PV is also much lower)

There are no Irish generator companies on the stock market as far as I know. Even if there were it is by no means clear that profits move in proportion to electricity prices over the long term.

punters could invest in Shell shares sure, but the whole point is to invest to develop green energy, not support fossil fuels

A2LUE42

From a tour of Ardnacrusha a few years ago, it was mentioned during the tour that only 3 turbines were installed, even though it was built to accommodate 4. From a renewable point of view, does anyone know why the 4th can't be installed now?

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119683931#Comment_119683931

it's 40 years since I did that same tour (LOL), but a 4th turbine was indeed installed ~10 years or so after the original construction, bringing it up to 80mw or so. The biggest problem with Ardnacrusha is that while it's an amazing piece of engineering (esp something done in the 1920's) it actually only has a very limited "head" of water, so it's production capacity is somewhat limited.

Citizen Six

I think it was originally designed for six. Three were fitted, then a fourth, later on, which was a different type to the original three.

I'm not really clear on why there is an argument over whether people can form a company to build a solar farm in the countryside. People have formed companies to build solar panels in the countryside and it's reasonable to assume they want their money back along with a fair bit of interest:

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/machines/millvale-solar-farm-neoen-ireland-may-2022

The issue is the barriers to entry (a few grand per apartment) and the fact that most owners have no incentive to put the cash up— most apartments are rented out, and landlords by definition invest in property not companies (and don't pay the energy bills so why would they give a crap about how high they are?). The management company as a legal person would almost certainly not have the legal power to buy land & start a solar farm.

The best bet in real life would be for the directors of the management company to get authorisation at the AGM to put solar panels on the roof of the property, with the electricity generated reducing the electricity bill for the common areas and any cash (from feeding into the grid) offsetting the annual management charge. This would have a relatively short payback period, and could potentially be paid for from the sinking fund (and therefore have no finance cost) assuming there actually is one big enough.

Forget about trying to persuade landlords of the apartments to voluntarily give you a few grand to benefit their tenants. (Because anyone who has ever rented in Ireland knows full well that there's not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening). Ask the landlords to let the management company spend some cash in the sinking fund to ultimately reduce their annual management charge.

UID0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119683883#Comment_119683883

Apologies. I've edited the post. The actual losses are 8.6% during the day on each side of the connection.

Balancing PV+wind with demand works fine on a grid scale basis. It doesn't work if you're attempting to power a block of apartments solely from PV+wind that is connected through the grid. Domestic PV is a much smaller issue because most of the time to the grid it just appears as a reduced demand.

For PV, to increase capacity the area covered has to increase in an almost linear fashion. For wind, the factor is the swept area of the blades and the average wind speed, meaning that what is needed is larger taller turbines. Increasing the capacity of a single turbine does not have as great a land requirement. For medium/large deployments, the initial outlay is lower for wind, but it has a higher ongoing operating cost.

I don't know if there are any generator companies on the stock market, but the OP was talking about forming a generator and customer supply company but limiting it to supplying a single block of flats. I'm sure that if one had a sufficient amount to invest, it would be possible to find a company willing to accept the investment.

Sparkling Gamorreans

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680914#Comment_119680914

We have District Heating in Ireland too but it falls outside of the CRU's remit, tends to be built on a development/block basis and it seems to result in astronomical charges. I posted about it in another thread. I just got a €233 bill for a 70 sqm 2 bed apartment for July/August that was for a period of no usage aside from the hot water. €25 of that bill was the variable usage of the apartment, the rest were standing or communal charges. I can't switch provider or do anything about it. Until such time as there's a proper regulatory framework from a consumer perspective District Heating should not be pushed in Ireland.

It's been discussed recently in these articles:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rising-energy-bills-no-switching-help-for-apartment-dwellers-stuck-with-one-gas-or-electricity-provider-42004186.html

https://www.buzz.ie/news/irish-news/utility-regulator-energy-costs-pricing-28038804

Also been raised in the Dail and via questions to Eamonn Ryan:

https://twitter.com/RBoydBarrett/status/1572249192575148035?s=20&t=ZSdon5MpLrZce1M8m1C4cg

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-05-24/85/

antoinolachtnai

The OP doesn’t want a money return. They want to make an investment in return for which they will get free or cheap energy outside of the tax net, the same as people who consume electricity from their rooftop PV do.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119683883#Comment_119683883

Put a number on the 'challenge'.

Assume there's no grid, and you're connected to panels & wind that are just sufficient to generate your consumption in an average year.

Tell us how small your battery could be, before you began to worry.

Show us how much a green future costs.

Gerry

A hell of a lot of talk on here.. but its already possible and happening

https://communitypower.ie

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686377#Comment_119686377

Click on the price increase button and read that, the tariff prices are eye watering and they have to buy the supply because they won't be up and running until Q3 2023 if lucky.