Esb treble profits - appalling!

irishchris

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0916/1323698-esb-group-reports-h1-operating-profit-of-over-350m/

Absolute and utter disgrace in the midst of an energy crisis. Explains why they continue to sneak the standing charges up with all these rises. In fairness rises generally were only for units in the past as tied to gas etc so what is their explanation for increasing standing charges at every single one of these numerous rises for last two years. Surely network maintenance charges have not increased so substantially to warrant it every couple months but profit margins wouldn't treble without this and other disgusting profit over people policy that exists. Their PR spins of having to sadly increase bills due to unprecedented costs to them seems even more farcical now

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058263596/esb-treble-profits-appalling

No it doesn't explain it. ESB's outsize profits are coming from its generation business due to the absolutely mental way we in Europe have set up our energy market. When generators are bidding to supply blocks of demand, they all get paid the price of the most expensive block of the day. It means we end up paying gas prices for cheap coal and renewable electricity. The idea was that this would encourage more efficient generation but the market has broken in a completely foreseeable way when stressed by high gas prices - something that was inevitable in the long term.

SuperBowserWorld

Ah, should have got a well paid job with a defined benefit pension in the ESB. Damn!

Ubbquittious

I used to work close to a big ESB office building. Those people were living the dhream I think, knocking off at around 4.

ELM327

All the profits go back to the exchequer anyway. A non story.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625439#Comment_119625439

What time did they knock on at?

Gusser09

Absolute scummy carry on. Sure look you'll have the usual cohort who will defend this carry on.

The next govt. Who try privatise any national entity should be hung for treason.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625543#Comment_119625543

The ESB is a semi-state 🙄

irishchris

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625451#Comment_119625451

Irregardless of who it goes to it's our pockets that are emptying for it. A true story!

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625853#Comment_119625853

Regardless, not "irregardless"(sic)

View it as another tax. The money goes to the exchequer. The same exchequer that funds these silly €200 grants.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625893#Comment_119625893

What 200e grants?Am i missing out on free money?

ELM327

No, it was paid to every MPRN in the country. If you have a holiday home you got 2 * 200 grants!

Theres rumored to be another grant(or grants) in the budget.

walterking

They accept themselves that there was excessive profits from the generation side of things (Both Northern Ireland and here in Republic).

Their supply side is not making any excessive profits.

Overall its 15% - where the outcry on Cairn Homes and Glenveagh homes making a 15% net profit. Or the countless other companies that have even higher levels.

They are in a system that worked up until about 12 months ago and kept electricity prices low and is currently not working.

If its of any consequence, if you are on a discount, you are paying some of the lowest unit prices in Europe and way lower than the UK (even with the new cap). And its because the consumer prices are lower than the generation market that Panda Power has closed and others previously closed.

So, yes, generation is making a substantial gain, but its not a crazy level and most likely this will change very soon when the eu changes the pricing reference

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625954#Comment_119625954

Exactly. And it isnt even an Irish issue anyway. This is across europe.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625336#Comment_119625336

That doesn't explain increases in standing charges, only unit pricing from vendors.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626056#Comment_119626056

Standing charges are a cross subsidy within the supply side market. If everyone pays a high standing charge, they are in effect subsidising high consumption consumers.

That is a policy decision effectively about who pays what rather than something that generates excess profit.

graememk

The network(ESBN) standing charges to my knowledge has not changed much in the last few years.

The supplier ones have though.

You supplier could choose to have no standing charge.. but charge a higher unit rate if they wanted. But only the low use customers would switch to them.

Don't forget that ESB employees (networks and EI included) get cheaper electricity than the rest of us. Perk for full-time employees there.

ELM327

Same as any company provided perk. This isnt an us v them scenario.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626389#Comment_119626389

And of course if they didn't get that minor, taxable perk, then we'd all get free electricity and, who knows, maybe even a free blow job from a wind farmer.

irishchris

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625893#Comment_119625893

Regardless 😜 Think we will all agree we have enough stealth taxes without another one! Absolute robbery at it's finest

slave1

You have a point there actually on the stealth tax (in a roundabout way). Surely though as micro generators most on this forum have mitigated against high electricity costs, but Winter is Coming

jkforde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625336#Comment_119625336

"When generators are bidding to supply blocks of demand, they all get paid the price of the most expensive block of the day."

so as microgenerators, I'd be nice if we were paid the same 'most expensive' unit price per day... 🤪

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632154#Comment_119632154

Careful what you wish for! OK right now, you'd be getting something like 30c per kWh. But when it regresses to the mean (and it will in a year or 2), that could drop to something closer to 4c or 5c. Just last year that was the market rate.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625451#Comment_119625451

The profits do. After extremely generous salary and pension costs are deducted first of course.

ELM327

Again, it's not an us v them scenario though.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640380#Comment_119640380

It is if you are of the opinion that their salaries / pensions are too generous. These are indirectly paid by the tax payer (you and me) in a semi-state company.

Every million in extra staff costs is taking away from their profit, so will not go to the exchequer.

ELM327

ESB is totally self funding and sends a profit to the exchequer every year. A profitable company can pay whatever bonuses and salaries it wants in a competitive market. I would buy your argument for the likes of Dublin Bus which received a subvention from the tax payer every year.

mickdw

Hiking the standing charge is the absolute opposite of what should be encouraged from the government side as that is a real kick in the teeth for the people who have outlaid thousands on solar pv systems. These people have invested in order to produce their own electricity and keep their bills super low. Increasing the standing charge is a big **** you to those people.

Was full on considering a hefty pv setup but not now. It was bad enough that they are allowed to act the maggot with feed in tariff rates but now this.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640511#Comment_119640511

A private sector company can. But the ESB is not private sector, it is semi-state. Every million they unnecessarily overspend, lowers their profit and costs the tax payer money.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640559#Comment_119640559

It's a private market, supply companies are free to charge whatever they want. As you the consumer are free to move company.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640609#Comment_119640609

I mean on a notional level I agree, but saving money in the ESB would be very low down on the priority list of changes I'd like to see from the public pocket.

unkel

Agree with @mickdw that there should be a ban on standing charges. I don't have to pay Maxol €500 per year just so I am allowed to buy their petrol? The polluter should pay, all the charges should be in the unit rate and in the unit rate only.

The easiest thing the government can do to make sure we have a huge uptake of solar PV microgeneration is to mandate net metering. Basically if you produce as much electricity from PV over the year as you consume, your total bill is zero. This is very doable even for a small sum. The average Irish house uses 3MWh per year and just a small 8 panel south facing system produces about 3MWh per year.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640559#Comment_119640559

Hate to be defending esbn but, that's your supplier that controls the standing charge and fit rates. Point your rage at them.

slave1

You do mention this from time to time....every million in salary will also mean higher Income Tax and USC paid by employee and higher ER PRSI so not quite a million in salary = million loss to exchequer, roughly million in salary = €550k loss to exchequer assuming they all on marginal tax rate.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640402#Comment_119640402

My understanding was that the PAYE, PRSI and USC that they pay on their "too generous" salaries and pensions goes to the exchequer?

Cut their "generous" remuneration and you'll reduce the exchequer take from that source.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640665#Comment_119640665

And does Maxol provide you with a petrol pipeline running straight from its nearest fuel depot into your driveway?

Because if not, then you're comparing a smartphone to a banana.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119641585#Comment_119641585

more like a smartphone to a walkie talkie!

put_the_kettle_on

I'm in the uk and got my new electricity direct debit this morning. It's now just over 300 pounds a month. We live in a small house and are careful with usage.

The new gas direct debit is also on its way and I'm dreading it.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119641585#Comment_119641585

I think you have misunderstood me. People should pay for any costs including maintaining the infrastructure. But all costs should be variable - there should be no fixed costs.

BTW I'm not some sort of left wing looney lamenting about profiteering in business. Businesses are there to maximise profit. The government is there to set some boundaries / frameworks within which those companies can do business. Like it is entirely up to the government and their bodies to forbid a standing charge if they so decide.

ELM327

I think there should be an option that was there years ago with very low standing charge but very high cents per kWh. Like you have say no standing charge but pay 1€ per kWh used. When I have 100kWh+ of batteries at home I'd go for that

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640679#Comment_119640679

Surely as esb networks provide the network, the majority of any standing charge must make it's way to them.

It's ok saying change provider but if networks are putting increased costs into the system's it's pretty certain I would have thought that they will all be increasing standing charges.

Personally I think government via esbn should be offering direct fit solar pv to every household, with current grant funding used that way instead of the current system. Payment for those systems over 10 years as part of energy bill which should make it very sensible for everyone to do given that there should be big saving on energy use.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119642308#Comment_119642308

Esbn network charges

Since oct 21 https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/esb-networks-dac-statement-of-charges.pdf

2020 charges

https://www.cru.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/CRU20084a-Schedule-of-DUoS-Charges-1st-Oct-2020-%25E2%2580%2593-30th-Sept-2021-1.pdf

Esbn standing charges are actually down!

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119641564#Comment_119641564

You sound like John Maynard Keynes. Hey sure let's double social welfare sure most of it will come back to the tax man anyway in the form of VAT on everything they buy, excise duty on their fags and booze, etc. so doing this doesn't really cost much 😂

But yeah obviously you are right indirectly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643695#Comment_119643695

He may sound like J M Keynes, but you're beginning to sound more and more like Mary Lou!

Anyway, do you disagree with Keynes's assertion? (For me, add in lottery tickets and he's probably spot on!)

unkel

I think Mary Lou is Keynes' granddaughter 😉 so no, I hope I do not sound like either of them! I'm more of a neoclassical economist myself. Although far from a fanboi of complete laissez-faire.