Junior & Senior Infants Shorter Hours

NormalBill

Does any know or have an opinion on why Junior and Senior Infants have one hour less school?

I can't find any policy or good reason on education.ie

10-10-20

Do you have kids, OP?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058263195/junior-senior-infants-shorter-hours

I too would love to know the answer to this. It can be very awkward for parents. In my kids school infants are finished at 2 and the older children are finished at 3 o clock. For many parents with children in older classes aswell as infants its not worth going home - but they are not allowed stay in the carpark.. It would make more sense for the whole school to finish at say 2.30pm.

Gamergurll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119612734#Comment_119612734

That would be great, mine have the hour gap too, I'm far from the school and don't drive so have to sit around with the youngest until 3,it will be costly during the winter having to sit in the local cafe for an hour 🙄

To the op, I don't know about Senior infants our school didn't do that but I assumed with Junior it was to get them used to the being away from home initially because 9-2 is a big jump in the beginning. My little one did playschool so was used to the idea but it was still a big step. All kids are unique though some are in full time childcare anyway, so I could be wrong that was just my guess :)

NormalBill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119612713#Comment_119612713

I do have kids.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613100#Comment_119613100

Perhaps then you can surmise what happens a 4 to 6 year old after 4.5hrs of education?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613197#Comment_119613197

The OP has raised a valid question - I dont think there is any need for you to be giving smart alec remarks.

I presume the answer to your question is that they get tired. I have a 5 yr old in Jnr infants and I dont think an extra half hour or 1 hour would make much difference to him. He used to do a longer day in creche from 9 o clock until 5 o clock.

Do you not think it would be easier if all the children in primary school were going home at the same time instead of a 1 hr difference in pick up times?

NormalBill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613197#Comment_119613197

In my opinion there's not much difference between 4.5 and 5.5 hours education, an extra hour in school with play rather than academic focus wouldn't hurt. What I'm looking for is the science, the policy to justify the difference, because lets be honest it is an inconvenience for many families.

NormalBill

Does anyone know if it is the school that decides the reduced hours or is it specified by the department? It seems optional from what I can find.

10-10-20

In fairness a first-time poster with effectively a one-liner question and no attempt made to elaborate on their thoughts as to the matter is, in my mind, deserving of pointed cajoling.

Formal education is a different environment to creche/montessori/pre-school with rest periods and durations of light structured play as well as non-structured play during the course of the full day; at a nice and relaxed pace. In schools the pupil to teacher ratio is between 1:15 and 1:30, while it's 1:6 or 1:8 in pre-school; hence tiring for all.

NormalBill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613545#Comment_119613545

Yes first time poster here, I'm happy to hear everyone's point of view, I did ask. I really am curious, I can't find anything useful to inform my opinion online.

I agree the ratios in primary schools are not ideal. I'm sure everyone's situation is different but for many it's not time they can provide better quality care because the clock is being watched until time to get older kids. Or its extra time in afterschool care, I don't think the ratios are 1:8 there.

Jacovs

For some reason link to citizens information page is giving a time out, so if you follow this:

Citizens Information > Education and Training > Primary and Post-Primary Education > Going to Primary School > Starting School.

Scroll down a bit to the heading "Your child in school". It explains that schools may reduce the school day for the first 2 years by an hour per day.

There is also a link to a PDF "Department of Education Circular 11/95 Time in School". Thats the official source.

Gamergurll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119612845#Comment_119612845

I completely misread the Op I feel a bit silly now ☺️ I was thinking of the beginning when they finish a few hours earlier but that doesn't make any sense, adjusting to a new routine has turned my brain to mush.. Lol!

Anyway, I still feel them finishing all at the same time would be easier but that is a little selfish for me because I don't fancy the waiting around for an hour each day, but to be fair my son will be bored also.. Whatever about regulations etc, the younger kids get tired more, they do less schoolwork than the older kids, and it's early days but my little fella is exhausted come the evening, his siblings would stay up half the night if they had the chance and there's only a few years in difference :)

Jinglejangle69

deleted

Shapey Fiend

In my kids (somewhat rural) school they have staff to mind them after school till 6pm. There are a good hundred of them milling about most days. It's only 2 euro an hour as well. I leave him in 3 hours a week he really enjoys it, especially after all the covid isolation.

Alquaa

It is fatigue and concentration for the younger classes. Lessons generally speaking are targeted learning for 15-20mins before levels of concentration drop. Then a busy break from learning is required before the next block of targeted learning. It’s also worth remembering that not all 4/5/6/7 year olds attend preschool and not all children settle as easily in the classroom as others. I have seen children sleep after lunch in a busy classroom due to fatigue (no household issues they were sleeping well at night).

In my opinion should the infant classes stay until 3pm no meaningful learning would take place it would be in essence childminding.

NormalBill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615294#Comment_119615294

I think this is very interesting thanks. Do you think is the school day for the rest of the school is too long, can you see much of a difference between Senior Infants and First class's development?

NormalBill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615190#Comment_119615190

That is a great support for parents, is it run by a private company or organized by the school?

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615870#Comment_119615870

As has been said, the shorter day is down to a mix of children's concentration level, easing them into a formal education setting (playschool/Montessori is very different structurally to school) & also fatigue. My little boy has been in creche since he was 10 months old (well apart from covid) & he started Montessori (ecce years) just a few weeks ago. The difference in him in terms of being tired at the end of the day is crazy. He's in for the same hours he always was but the new set up of learning has him wrecked!

In terms of difference - I know from seeing my nieces & nephews that there does seem to be a leap in ability to sit still & concentrate between about senior infant age & first class. Now it is all down to individual children (like the correct age to start a child into school at - some do better younger & others older where the choice is available) but schools have to cater for the general on things like this. They've also had a couple of years as well of understanding how school works & learning so are used to it a bit more by first class.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615294#Comment_119615294

"In my opinion should the infant classes stay until 3pm no meaningful learning would take place it would be in essence childminding."

Let's be honest - it's all child minding. What's actually learnt in school day by day can be covered in a few minutes. The rest is 'play', 'interaction' and the kids could do that just as easily in their neighbourhoods.

The root of this question and some of the replies openly imply what people well know. :)

cruizer101

Bit of "lambha trasna agus teigh a chodladh" in the middle of the day and they should be grand for the extra hour

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616002#Comment_119616002

They could but would they? Some would happily be allowed sit on screens for the whole day. At least school forces some kind of structure and curriculum onto them and forces interaction.

Also it allows the rest of the population to get so.e work done to keep the money rolling in

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616078#Comment_119616078

Hmm.. I think that answer is reflective too of the underlying rationale. Parents need to work, so child care is needed. If children are at home, then parents need to parent and they might be happier on screens themselves these days. Whatever about post primary, in some European states the norm is more for children to start school around 7, the so called age of reason. That would solve the OPs query.

ax530

I have noticed first class children are very tired and take a while to get used to the extra hour.

School is different to creche they are concentrating, learning ect.

Also teachers of infant classes possibly need more prep time. Older classes can get books, copies ect ready for a lesson. I expect for infants most things left in front of them ready to go - this could require photocopying, cutting, sticking ... so the teacher has an hour work with no students to get this work done.

My JI child goes to creche afterschool until 5:30 well able for this but I think an extra hour of school classes would be bit much at that age. They need enough time to have fun, not be restricted by rules which must have in class room.

Shiok

I imagine the shortened day speaks more to resources - one teacher in a room with 25 children for half a day in some parts of the country - rather than educational best practice.

I can only speak as a parent but my 5 year old is certainly able for a ‘structured day / learning environment’ beyond 2pm.

Most private primary schools I am aware of have the same school hours in junior & senior infants as the older years.

Shapey Fiend

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615889#Comment_119615889

I'm not altogether sure what the arrangement is they've been doing it for 20+ years. They're kept on school grounds anyway. There's the woman runs it lives across the road and she has a couple of assistants. Seems to work well but in todays litigious environment it's probably not replicable in most scenarios certainly at that price.

Alquaa

Yes there is definitely a difference between senior infants and first class at this time of year, by the time the summer term of school comes around it’s less noticeable. The longer day does take a while for first class to get used to also it’s unsurprising for them to be fatigued at times for the first few weeks. Their work load has increased along with time spent in class. Broadly speaking senior infants are currently refining their fine motor skills, need repetition of the building blocks of reading and writing and early mathematical skills. First class have grasped the early stages of reading, writing and mathematical concepts. Our curriculum is divided in to four bands, children will have four big leaps in learning during their primary education. 1) Junior infants 2) 1st class 3) 3rd class and finally 4) 5th class. September is a challenge for those groupings in particular as they level up in learning, expectations and work load.

Our curriculum is by no means perfect but I think length of time spent in class is age appropriate.

As regards the school day for the older classes 3rd-6th, they could well be capable of a longer day but I’m not sure how the practicalities of a longer day would work. Purely my own thoughts but if it was ever looked at as an option teacher rotation would have to be considered. Pupils would be tired listening to even the most inspiring teacher for longer than they currently do! At least in a secondary school setting there is a fresh voice every hour.

jrosen

I have never questioned the time difference. I have always just assumed it was age based advice.

I think the day is fine. I know its difficult when you have kids that need collecting at different times. Our school used to have a bridging class, you paid for your JI/SI child t stay for the difference. I availed of it the days I worked but on the days I didnt we did 2 trips.

I think overall the school days in Ireland are long enough especially when you consider students have homework too.

byhookorbycrook

Primary teacher here. Infant classes couldn't or shouldn't be expected to do the same school timetable as older children. A 4-5 year old can just about manage the day as it is! I think people are talking more about child care than education? The "infant hour" is sometimes filled by some paid activity like Irish dancing/dram/gymnastics etc. Lots of schools lack the space to do this or don't have any person in the locality offering the service. Parents could put together a service in agreement with the school, if there was a person/people willing to run it.

We are fortunate in our school that there's a super afterschool service about 5 minutes walk from the school. They collect the children at home time, bring them to the service and then return those with older siblings when it's time for those to go home.