If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact [email protected]

Licensee renting troubles

  • 12-09-2022 8:34pm
    Registered Users Posts: 26 Smoke420meme

    I moved in with a friend a month ago, I'll call him john. We had an agreement that I'd pay John rent for a room in a house that he is renting and living in. I thought it would be a good idea to let the landlord know I was living there and to get added to the lease. So my John asked the landlord if I could be added to the lease. The landlord turned around and said he doesn't want my friend to be subletting or to have a licensee as it's a breech of the lease/contract. I guess you have to tell your landlord about any guests or subtenants which John didn't do. His reason for not adding me was over crowding but there are 3 rooms in the house and 1 person for each room. Not sure what his issue is.

    So now the LL is sending someone from the agency to inspect the property, we assume it's just so the agent can gather evidence to prove that I'm living here. I've been told by threshold that if they find evidence that I'm living here, they can issue a 28 day warning notice to the tenant John and if it's not resolved in 28 days, they can issue an eviction notice.

    We are not doing anything bad in the property, we are maintaining it and not disturbing neighbours or anything like that. Keeping it very clean and making it nice with furniture we bought. Now I'm feeling very hopeless as I think I will be kicked out soon.

    I don't know what will come of the inspection. I assume an agent will arrive, take a look around the property and take photo's of the rooms. He will probably tell the LL that he suspects someone is living in the spare room. The landlord will pressure John into kicking me out, by threatening warning notices or eviction. I don't think John has been here for 6 months so he probably doesn't have a part 4 tenancy yet.

    Anyone know how fucked I am or have any advice? I'm starting a new job this week and this stress is so horrible and miserable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭houseyhouse

    You will have to leave. John could maybe stay even with eviction notices etc but you have no rights because you’re not a tenant. Not moving in extra people without permission is a clause in almost any rental lease. Where are you living before? Can you go back there?

  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Smoke420meme

    Was renting in a house share, can't go back now. Homelessness it is.

  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭houseyhouse

    That’s rough. Get back on to Threshold for advice. Your best bet might be to appeal to the landlord’s better nature. From their perspective another tenant brings no advantages. There’s more wear and tear on the property but no increased income. If the whole place is rented as a single unit they can’t increase the rent because of the RPZ legislation (assuming it’s in an RPZ) but if it’s rented by the room they may be able to start charging you separately. If you stay, your friend could also get evicted. I really don’t have good advice for you but I hope you find something.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,620 ✭✭✭✭Del2005

    How long has John been renting?

    (7) A person who is lawfully in occupation of the dwelling concerned as a licensee of the tenant or the multiple tenants, as the case may be, during the subsistence of a Part 4 tenancy may request the landlord of the dwelling to allow him or her to become a tenant of the dwelling.

    If he's in Part 4 then you've a chance to get onto the RTB as the landlord has to allow you become a tenant. The only potential issue is that John might not have been authorised to allow a licencee but that's an issue between John and the Landlord not you and the landlord, as you have a signed licencee agreement with John 😉

  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Smoke420meme

    I Don't think John has been renting for 6 months which I think is how long it takes for a part 4 tenancy to be enacted.

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,868 ✭✭✭spaceHopper

    Can you pay the LL more rent?

  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Smoke420meme

    It's in a rent pressure zone so don't think it's legal to pay more and the LL seems to like everything to be above board.

  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Smoke420meme

    You can really tell you used to be a landlord. Zero compassion for tenants and tonnes of compassion for the landlord. I'm glad you aren't a landlord anymore either. But sadly a lot of landlords out there are like you. More concerned with wear and tear than human life.

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭meijin

    licensee is really a visitor... and has about the same rights

    does the LL really have the power to control who visits the house and stays overnight? one night? one week? or where is the limit?

    what about a partner? also not allowed by a landlord?

    the lease might say "no subletting", but the licensee is not a sublet situation

  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭houseyhouse

    In my experience the lease often states the number of nights a visitor can stay in a month. This seems a little petty but it is the only way to avoid the problem you describe.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,021 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer

    So John is renting a 4 bed house on his own?

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Ginger83

    You appear to be caught in an awkward situation where you will more than likely have to leave.

    Your mate John would be benefiting from you paying him reducing his rent but it was a big mistake leaving your previous accommodation without getting permission from John's landlord.

    One of the biggest issues facing the landlord is if they needed to end the tenancy for whatever reason and John agreeing to move but you refusing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭meijin

    where did it say there are 4 bedrooms?

    where did it say nobody else lives in the house?

    why do you invent a fake story?

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,197 ✭✭✭✭Dav010

    I think you are missing the point CH is making, but carry on.

  • Sorry, just to clarify as I am unclear on this - is John passing on the money his friend is paying him to the landlord, or is he keeping it himself?

    Surely someone renting a room in a private property, can't rent out a vacant room and just keep the money?

    Or is John renting the whole house?

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,021 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer

    He says 3 rooms. I added John in for a fourth.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭1874

    Ok, so as the other poster replied, what if someone renting decides on their own bat that their mate/sibling/cousin can stay, what if the landlords policy doesnt cover for example a smoker or not without being notified or the landlord doesnt want to deal with the problems associated with that after the original guy that rented has left, what if the landlord wants to vet the person themselves? what if the person drives a car, and everyone in the house has cars and the landlord doesnt want to have his tenants block access because they are considerate of the neighbours? what if they decided they just want X number of people and let it on that basis, its not about compassion or lack of it, but when you give an inch people take a mile, next it will be 2 people staying or more, it can also cause problems in that, maybe the other tenant didnt want or agree to this chap staying or felt obligated to agree. I am completely on board that there is a huge problem, but one which has not been caused by smalltime landlords who are fleeced/scapegoated/hassled for providing accommodation. I got out because of the hassle and one sidedness and the delays to deal with problems.

    The current situation has been created by successive Govts across a few areas, 1. Not facilitating more home builds, not influencing councils in the last decade to make land available at a price and ensuring their developer mates are held accountable for not building crap on land that started out as public/state land. 2. Having laws in place to deal with delinquent tenants (and landlords) because the current setup encourages bad tenants & bad landlords, thats not to say their arent good landlords or good tenants, but good tenants are paying for the acts of foolish/idiotic decisions, which may be well meaning or they may be based on the fact the State (successive Govts) know the cost involved in providing accommodation would be huge, instead of rewarding smalltime landlords they are fleeced and blamed.

    Your post is significantly indicative of this blame and reduces the potential for a problem down to it being a lack of compassion, its not that simple, it is not the responsibility of private landlords to fix the problems of the state, such as providing longterm accomodation, smalltime landords dont make Policy, but renting would be possible and viable for all if the Govt made the right laws/decisions, instead it is all stick and very limited carrot for landlords, so little that Landlords are leaving in droves, yet you still blame landlords for not having compassion, when in fact many have been (including myself) compassionate. Compassion doesnt pay the bills and there is only so much that can be given when the landlords own responsibilities and family are affected, many landlords are in that situation (some accidental, others not, neither of which should mean they have more or less rights), many other landlords just extract what they can (I had to put money in to make up costs) that was a fact of the situation I was in. It could in fact save the State and consequently taxpayers billions to supplement available accommodation provided by the state for rental with that provided by private landlords. So those that cant or dont want to/need to buy have a that option, but there needs to be something in it for landlords, so by the time you deduct tax, pay down debts it is not an easy task to balance the monthly budget. Buying shouldnt be a necessity to avoid a rental trap, I dont agree with it, but I do see it as necessary in this Country. I believe neo-liberal policies have influenced many Nations policy to provide less and less accomodation and just let it be a free for all where the whole thing is foisted onto the market and a capitalist free-market policy drives the entire process. I dont agree with that, I believe housing should be affordable such that it should be a less important consideration in peoples lives.

    1. If a small number of problems were fixed and dealt with that would help (not completely) solve many of the problems that exist, basically you have Threshold and by inaction tacit support from the RTB for tenants and tenant landlord problems not to be dealt with, that means bad tenants get away with a lot that wouldnt be tolerated elsewhere. So if a landlord isn't allowed bend the rules (shouldn't be) why do you think tenants should be? The landlord never agreed to what is raised here and is within their rights to refuse.

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭meijin

    "His [LL] reason for not adding me was over crowding but there are 3 rooms in the house and 1 person for each room"

    irrelevant to the question being asked by OP anyway - or what's your point?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭meijin

    What if there is a couple, and they have a baby? Does the LL have the right to kick them out?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭1874

    Not sure if you are being serious?

    Are the couple the original tenants? or someone a tenant invited to stay? if the the latter then yes, they can tell (not ask) them to get out,so Yes they do have a right.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭1874

    For clarification, is the OP saying this is a 3 bedroom house and there are 3 original tenants? if so what room is the OP occupying?

    Either way, the landlord is within their rights to refuse, if not an RPZ, the landlord may have taken the original number of tenants into account when setting the rent, which if so, confirms making deals favourable to a tenant can backfire (plenty of landlords being compassionate cant even increase the rent closer to market rates, let alone actual rates), so it is very difficult for a landlord to be compassionate and not risk getting stung. Same for other breaches of tenancy (by the tenants, not the OP, they aren't a tenant, Licensee or a subletter, because the Landlord has confirmed they have declined this) therefore landlord should deal with this formally as is their right and treat it like the contract is being reneged upon.

  • Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭Gamergurll


  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭houseyhouse

    It depends if it’s overcrowded. There’s an official definition, I believe. If it’s a one bed, I think that technically it would be when the child turns 1.

    Edited to add: not advising this, just answering in respect of what the rules are as I understand them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,868 ✭✭✭spaceHopper

    OK so he's let a 3 bed house to two people, you have come in as a 3rd. There is nothing in it for the LL and having 3 flatmates leads to falling-out's then the tenants expect the LL to act as social worker and get involved. There is no upside to the LL for this.

    How are you going to give them an upside or remove any risk for you 3 been there v the LL reletting it to somebody else. You need to figure this out for them and present them with a win win.

    Another way of looking at it is that they LL approved of two people, he doesn't know you and you could be unreliable and cause hassle for them.

    I had it with a tenant, they asked to let a friend stay in their flat while they went travelling, they were a good tenant so we said yes, this then turned in to two years or traveling and different friends, parties front door left open and Guards called....

  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Smoke420meme

    So like it's a catch 22 because legally he can't accept more money from us, could do under the table but he seems like he wouldn't do that. Also if we offer him more money for me to stay there, then that's admitting that I'm here and grounds for him to use that as evidence for an eviction.

    Might chance my arm if he does try **** us out.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭mrslancaster

    How will your friend feel if you're the reason he gets a notice to leave because of a breach of contract?

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭lau1247

    Take a walk in his shoe and you can see why he wouldn't agree to do it off book. It might suit you now to offer to do that but from his point of view, if future relationship goes sour. You could threaten to report him to Revenue/RTB etc as a parting shot. There is absolutely no upside for him as far as I can see.