Is it worth our while?

Hi, sorry if my question seems off, or naive, or annoying, but I really don't know the answer and I figured that if I can't get it here I can't get it anywhere on boards.

We live on the southside of Dublin. We have a bungalow with a south facing roof that's not overlooked by trees or buildings - I dunno exactly, but I'd guess we have about 10 x 6 metres of roof facing almost directly due south. We use gas for heating and hot water (relatively new combi boiler) and electricity for all the other stuff. We don't have an EV, and there's little prospect of us getting one for the next couple of years at least. We're getting through about 4,200 kWh of electricity and about 15,000 kWh gas a year. We're ruthless enough about switching tariffs and suppliers, and we're due a move in about 3 months. We don't know our precise ins and outs of usage over a 24-hour period, but we're probably typical in using more electricity first thing in the morning, in the evening, and at weekends, with patchy usage during the day.

Is it worth our while thinking of solar PV? And if so what should we think about doing or what should we avoid like the plague? I've read the stickied thread and I'm not really any the wiser. Two friends/colleagues have installed solar PV in the last couple of years. One says yes, the other says "meh".

Ta.

DC999

Yep. Worth your while looking for sure. You use average energy usage which means it will contribute a decent chunk to drop your bills. And you already watch how much energy you use it seems. So that's a good starting place.

I'd suggest... you get quotes. And listen to the 'go for it' mate. :)

Avoid like the plague....not getting quotes :)

I am only setup 6 weeks maybe. But wonder why I waited so long. If we ever move house, we'll get solar there too. Our Nissan Leaf EV gets free 'motion lotion' some months of the year from solar. What's not to love about that? So worth considering that benefit if an EV is a runner in the future

Ubbquittious

Yes go for it 4.2MWh a year is about average and the solar could do a good chunk of that. You don't need EV's or electric hot water heating or anything especially now that they are after bring in the feed in tariff.

I wonder what kind of a setup the "meh" colleague has

jkforde

the quality of the contractor is key in this, if you pick an honest bunch, who won't over sell, over install, dump you without fully testing and explaining the system (app, CTs etc, etc), then you can't go wrong. I would advise getting a smart EV charger in at the start, ready to go when you will need it (I assume Type 2 charger specification isn't going to be dumped anytime soon).

anyway, give it serious consideration and use the winter evenings to research it, line up an installation next March\April when PV production ramps up. go for it, just pick the right company!

slave1

Fill that S roof for a 6kW inverter, install the cabling for an EV charger now, you don't need an EV for the €600 grant anymore so maybe even get one installed whilst you have a RECI on site.

Personal decision to just export to the grid for FIT payment or get a hybrid inverter/battery setup.

Read the quotes thread at least twice and then PM for installer feedbacks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598281#Comment_119598281

Cheers. He's not actually negative, but he's saying something along the lines of "it looks like it'll eventually pay its way". Mind you, he's a bit like that about everything!

But I've no idea what setup either of these people are using, and it's all a bit like looking into a hedge for me. Oddly enough, the more enthusiastic one has two setups, one in his own place in the west and one in his former house (now rented out) in Dublin. He says that the Dublin setup is saving more money faster, and he says that's down to the weather.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598191#Comment_119598191

Thanks. Sounds counter-intuitive, but I've actually started reading the figures more since we got the electricity smart meter. We changed cars recently enough, so ICE (petrol) is where we're at for a while anyway. That said, herself will be changing before me and there's always the possibility of her going hybrid or maybe full-on electric (out and out urban driver).

It'd be a big investment, so getting quotes is essential. Mind you, we did a big renovation recently, and we were lucky because we had several builders who were all recommended by people we knew and then could get quotes from them all before going ahead. When I look around my estate I don't see any panels on houses.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599037#Comment_119599037

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599560#Comment_119599560

Thanks for these comments. It's ensuring the quality that's important, but like I said above it's not like we'd have access to personal recommendations. We got work done recently and I now have a few tradespeople that I'd recommend to anyone in a heartbeat, but oddly enough not our RECI guy - he did a good job, but let's just say we didn't get on.

Anyway, it's something I'd like to do, partly to save on the bills and partly because I think it's the right thing. My other half will take a more hard-nosed approach, and that'll keep manners on me!

I'll take the advice about reading the quotes thread and getting feedback on the installers. I think I'll have another conversation with my (more enthusiastic) mate as well.

Thanks again to all of you who replied.

More Music

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598191#Comment_119598191

So should the OP ignore the mate who said "meh"? Why is that opinion not worth considering?

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608482#Comment_119608482

Because there are no details. How much was spent? What size system was it? What is the yield? Was it installed correctly (sized appropriate for the house). All these things make the opinion hard to place a value on. However, there's 30-40 users who have documented their systems, price, yield and I'd say the vast majority (or perhaps even all of them?) would say it's worthwhile doing.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/126q1if4RJqtmB1z-M6cxuXr6TknY_SwKuwAjxZsxh8E/edit

monseiur

Research is the key here, and that includes grants available from SEAI etc. I don't have first hand knowledge of the system but most impartial opinion seems to suggest that the pay back is 10 to 12 years which, coincindintally, seems to be the lifespan of the actual solar panels ! With technology constantly changing, developing and evolving in this field chances are that solar panels that are top of the pile today will be obselete in less that 10 years. Basically it's a case of paying your money and hoping for the best.

Girl Geraldine

I'd be of the meh camp.

All well and good installing a top of the range system. But as another poster pointed out, these would rarely have a pay back of less than 10 years. Any system running 24/7 for ten years will probably be starting to give up the ghost after 10 years.

So you might work out with less hassle to just pay for piped electricity and not have to be worrying about solar.

Certainly, I would have no intention of getting it. I prefer the simplicity of just having piped energy, a meter and pay the bill.

I live alone anyway, so my energy use is modest. A PV system, or indeed any sort of renewable energy, would have so long a pay back period that it simply isn't worth the hassle involved.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119601744#Comment_119601744

If someone pays too much to an installer it will add years to the break even point or if they get extra add-ons like Eddis that are under-utilised. I try and do all I can to make it pay off quickly such as welding my own ground mounts and buying an inverter with a dent in the case from eBay but most aren't willing to do that.

More Music

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608499#Comment_119608499

And the exact same rationale can be applied to the mate who said "yes, go for it". No detail about that system either.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608611#Comment_119608611

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608658#Comment_119608658

Where is this 10 year lifespan for the panels coming from?

They have a 20+ warranty! ;)

Batteries and inverters have a shorter lifespan but the battery is optional and the inverter is only hundreds, not thousands, so not a big deal.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608611#Comment_119608611

Solar panels have much longer life span, most are certified at 80% generation after 25/30 years. Panels have had very little technological advancements over the years, a 200w panel from 5 years ago may be obsolete now with 450w panels but this is primarily down to increase in panel size and not technology gains.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608482#Comment_119608482

I was joking when I said ignore the "meh". You'd always want to find out the pros and cons in the real world. So worth that person talking to both. I was lucky that I knew someone I trusted that got a system maybe a year before me so had real world stats + if they would recommend it (they did). Plus there's a heap of real world stats on the link @bullit_dodger added above.

100% that there is a bias here in this forum (a type of 'echo chamber' if you will) in the sense that a lot of the people posting on it have had a lot of success using solar. It's a pro-renewals forum. To me, as a user that has just started the solar journey, it's primarily my free, high-quality educational course in solar :)

And in all the maybe 6 months I've watched ths forum closely, I only recall one person with a negative comment post install. That was if they oversized it at the start. They were happy with it, but wondered if they went too big. But with a strong FIT rate announced since, they get better coinage back. That's not to say there aren't others unhappy that never posted. And for sure if you overpay by a lot, the payback time would take a lot longer - ministry of the obvious of course (+ same for anything you buy).

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608945#Comment_119608945

Very true - but plenty of good quality information from people here on the forums who will testify that it's something "worth doing". Now if you decide not to do that, of course that's an individual choice and one that everyone is entitled to make. For sure it's a significant investment, but one I think changes your view on how you use electricity. In a good way.

As DC999 mentions though it's important that you engage with a trusted, reliable installer. Some of the big operators have very slick advertising, but the prices they charge would make a breakeven point in the 20-25 year period. It's nonsense. An accurately sized system for an average house will be in about the 8-12 year mark. Some heavy users will see break even points as low as 5-6 years, although it's rare.

As for the hardware, people get confused when they see "Panel guaranteed for 10 years" etc. This doesn't mean that they stop working at 10 years, but rather that they guarantee will say something like "At 10 years, they will produce 88% of the output at day 1". Your panels you buy today could still be producing electricity in 2050! (albeit they won't be producing the same amount)

Punchin A Keyboard

I saw a YouTube video on the commercial solar farms out in the deserts in California and they were averaging 5 panel failures per 10000 per annum and the dust coupled with heat would probably be worse than the rain here on panels

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599560#Comment_119599560

I'm all for PV, but the prospect of having to read that quotes thread is enough to put Eamon Ryan off solar panels. It's over 110 pages long...

slave1

It's reflective of current demand but you will learn a lot from it, number of panels, what inverers folk are going with, price quotes etc. Apart from knowledge gain it could also save you a lot of money. Totally up to you though

Padre_Pio

For someone considering solar, is it worth sizing your panels to cover your entire needs if possible, or sizing them to cover the baseload current from your house (daily house heating, water heating only)

unkel

@slave1 - "Solar panels have much longer life span, most are certified at 80% generation after 25/30 years. Panels have had very little technological advancements over the years, a 200w panel from 5 years ago may be obsolete now with 450w panels but this is primarily down to increase in panel size and not technology gains."

This is exactly it. Panel efficiency is improving, but it's glacial. Where the better panels now have 21-22% efficiency, they had maybe 15% about 10-15 years ago. Manufacturers are "cheating", they are just making the panels bigger and bigger to give them a higher wattage rating, make it look like they are improving much more than they are

slave1

I just put in 455w panels and can see the same company is now shipping 560w beasts, but it's all down to dimensions as efficiency went from 21.08% to 21.68% so just an 3% efficiency gain.

The 560w are 2.3m X 1.1m, 28kgs so perfect for a ground mount DIY but I would not like to be solo handling those panels, 28kgs across such a large surface area is very hard to manage.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611106#Comment_119611106

BTW, panel warranty is to be minimum 84.8% performance at the end of 25years, ~ 0.55% annual degradation

yankinlk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610874#Comment_119610874

No need to read the thread. Read the FAQ pinned to this forum. Get three quotes (use the reocmmneded installers or choose your own) and POST your quotes in the quotes thread. Couldn't be simpler.

unkel

Yes panels go up once and last forever. Not sure why so many people keep repeating pub talk arguments about a life of just 10 years. Maybe your inverter will break down after 10 years, but that's very easy to replace yourself in less than an hour and costs hundreds. Not a big deal. The big money for a PV install is in the actual install costs of having scaffolding and lads on your roof and an electrician wiring the inverter into your consumer unit. And of course the profit margin of the installer. These are one-off costs.

Girl Geraldine

YEah but the average Joe Shmoe isn't going to be up for DIY replacement of inverters and stuff. The average joe or jane soap would be doing well to even grasp that the device had failed, and could be years on from the failure before they realise that their bills are now higher because of the failure.

They are not going to have the knowledge or abilities to change a piece of equipment like that and will be relying on an electrician to come in and do it and supply a suitable replacement. If they can even get someone to take on the job.

I'd absolutely agree that this forum is an echo-chamber. What installation and maintenance savings are possible for enthusiasts is not applicable to the regular joe who has neither the interest nor ability to understand the workings of a system like this, even as simple as it all usually is. They are just not interested in it 99% of the time.

slave1

Most inverters come with 10year warranty, Unkel said replacement "after 10 years", that does not equate to 10years and a day, it could be 16 years or 14 years, we'll know when we know.

There are typically 5/6 "click" connections in an inverter and a single "power" cable to be connected via a screwdriver, even if not DIY inclined the time to remove and replace an inverter is less than an hour so there will be no issue with high electrician costs.

A straight forward 5kW inverter is ~ €600, in the overall cost of a PV install it's noise and shouldn't be a cause of concern to stop an install, a TV is more expensive and will need replacing in less a time span

Tree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611700#Comment_119611700

I think you don't give Joe or Jane Soap enough credit basic competencies. The apps are easy enough to use, and they often flag alarms for users. Ringing your installer for a fix isn't that difficult, even if they may not be out to you today to fix it.

I have no intention of replacing any of the components of my solar system myself in the event they fail. That doesn't mean solar is out of reach for me, it just means I need to be able to call my installer for help. My gas central heating is more likely to fail than my solar, does that mean I shouldn't have GFCH cause I can't replace that myself either?

unkel

@Girl Geraldine - "YEah but the average Joe Shmoe isn't going to be up for DIY replacement of inverters and stuff. "

Yes fair enough. It shouldn't take an electrician more than about 15 minutes to replace the inverter, it really is as simple as replacing a socket. So just a call out charge.

@Girl Geraldine - "The average joe or jane soap would be doing well to even grasp that the device had failed, and could be years on from the failure before they realise that their bills are now higher because of the failure."

That's clutching at straws. They were smart enough and tuned in enough to organise to get a solar PV system installed, paid thousands for it, yet they don't notice when it's not producing? Don't notice it for years? Nah, that's simply not going to happen.

Girl Geraldine

It might seem like that to you, but that is because you yourself, and your fellow entusiasts are knowledgeable. Analysing performance, planning upgrades, tracking output on smartphone apps. Ye are therefore biased.

But the average, non-enthusiast won't have a fraction of that knowledge or even the interest it these matters. For the average person walking the street, it is likely that the they probably don't even understand the fundamental principles of electricity, and neither do they have the inclination to educate themselves about it or the finer points of solar PV systems. They are not going to have the time, interest nor perhaps even the capability of looking at and interpreting information on a smartphone app.

My sister and her husband have a solar thermal system on their house, installed when the house was built. It has ceased to work for some years and they were absolutely oblivious to that fact. I offered to arrange for it to be repaired and they just shrugged their shoulders at the notion. They now just press a button for heat and hot water, having had their complicated heating controls replaced with a basic as could be flash programmer and boost button.

And they are not idiots either, both are smart people, work professional jobs. They are average people. But like most, renewable energy is just not something they are particularly interested in. I doubt they know the difference between AC and DC and I'would put money on them understanding the fundamental concept of an electrical circuit.

If I tried to explain to them how to track the performance of their solar system remotely via an app, they would glaze over - it would be like speaking Hindi to them.

For the average person, it just isn't important enough to them for them to bother their time learning about it.

paulbok

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610897#Comment_119610897

Yeah, panels should come with a standardised output rating, like w/M2, so a 2m x 1m 400w panel would be rated as 200w/M2

unkel

@Girl Geraldine - "For the average person, it just isn't important enough to them for them to bother their time learning about it."

In your example you are talking about people with inherited systems though that didn't cost them anything in terms of time or money, not people who actively go out and have a system costing thousands installed.

But yeah I broadly agree with your point about people who have no interest in any of these systems. That's where a global existential problem like climate change comes in though, helped with a bit of an energy crisis. People like your sister and her husband, now still seemingly ignorant of what's happening in the world, will get a rude awakening when a kWh hits €1 and then they will get the finger out. I see it all around me already and PV installers are all out the door and materials are near impossible to get.

ELM327

A year ago I was one of those people who it wasnt worth my time. How I wish it had been, as I see now how much of a benefit PV can be to my pocket! You can install a small grid tied system yourself for 1500-2000 euro and see pay back in a few months. Or go much further and install a massive system and know that the PBT is closer to 10 years right now, but with energy prices going one way it will likely be closer anyway. If I had jumped a year ago, I'd be a year into my PBT!

If you use 12,000kWh per year like I do, the change from an average rate of 13c per kWh to €1 per kWh is a huge jump

yankinlk

I dont think this forum is an "echo chamber". There are plenty of discussions around DIY versus COTS batteries for example - plus the ongoing debates on FIT veruss battery etc.

I dont really get why a "single person living alone" is even in this forum giving advice on NOT installing solar etc. If we took a poll of people who have success with saving money on electricity bills - your cohort would not be represented... you need to have a fairly healthy demand for exlectricity - and big bills to even look at solar.

Watch the video in the FAQ - the very first part of it is "do not install solar untill you try these things, reduce, change habits, switch provider annually etc etc)

DC999

I said recently this forum is an "echo chamber" based on the fact that we're all pro renewables. And I'm proud it's a positive "echo chamber" for that purpose. It that doesn't float peoples boat, leave the forum and don't post just to stir stuff up. And I'd agree @yankinlk that there are heaps of positive & respectful & challenging debates on heaps of threads.

Tbh, I think there are a very few people that look to cause reactions, sometimes just for the sake of it. I just change the setting to 'ignore' and then don't see what they post forever more. Click on the person's name, click the head icon, then 'ignore'. Done. Life's too short!!

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616655#Comment_119616655

A few months may be a bit optimistic. My system cost a bit under 2k and if prices don't skyrocket too much more it will still take 3-4 years to pay for itself.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616741#Comment_119616741

Obviously it depends on your current use and future pricing. For me I could have spent 2k on 2 1000w grid tie inverters and a couple of panels to cover my base load. That prorata saving is exponentially more than you get at higher cost systems. My own (currently 25k all in) system is looking at 10 years+ PBT, and I'm not even half done.

slave1

Comfort zone is very important.

I initially looked at solar over a decade ago, about 15 years back now I come to think if it. I had a survey but the costs were mad high and no grants, and the generation payback simple did not stack up so I forgot about it.

Then in 2019/2020 I could see panels here and there. I read the Quotes thread from the current and previous years three times over so knew the difference between a good and bad quote, but no overall technical knowledge, just install costs.

For my first install I choose the installer route, all I did was hand over money, no involvement whatsoever apart from tea and biscuits. 2 days from memory.

I quickly got rid on my hybrid and battery and put more panels up and increased inverter size.

Then I watched the sun for a year, where it hit my garden and at what times and for how long. This fed DIY install #2 from technical knowledge gained here in the forum and selected PMs along with YouTube. This took me 6months from designing garden mounts (roof already full from install #1), sourcing metal, labour, welding on site, making changes along the way, getting the panels, mounting the panels, cabling, mounting inverter and finally having everything ready for electrician to hook up to isolator/grid tie in etc. This is now all but complete.

In parallel I'm (still) working on a 20kWh DIY Battery pack and am in the final hurdles of cable runs to get that up and running.

Then I'm done!!!

Point is, you can take whatever route you want, pay the installer, pay more but get it done very quickly or you can DIY which will take a lot longer but lower cost. Either way or combination of both, totally up to you which route to choose and where to stop...

DC999

But...for those reading this that don't have solar, you can spend as little as ~40 quid per month on solar as a service. There's a Toyota Yaris (solar as a service), then a Bentley, and everything in between. Each provide juice, it's just down to how much and what works for each house (cost and design and need wise).

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617125#Comment_119617125

+1 (good post btw)

Padre_Pio

This may be a silly question, but has anyone successfully brought their solar with them when they moved?

The OP mentions moving house, meaning that unless the sale price includes the solar install price, they'll never break even.

slave1

House value will go up by value of install one would imagine, less headache for new owner with no hundreds long Quotes Thread to read through

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616741#Comment_119616741

Would you mind sharing what system you have to give people a rough idea?

We are currently saving for a solar pv system and have a few quid put aside but looking at the grant available it's hard to know whether to spend what we have now or keep saving. Some of the quotes in the quote thread are quite large to us so another valid question is would an installer be even interested in a smaller install?

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618414#Comment_119618414

I'll flip that on its end, If there was 2 identical houses except one has solar and one doesnt, Would it be worth more? Or.. would it be easier to sell?

And once your on the house scale of money, Its hardly worth the bother taking down the old panels and putting them on the new house.

Prob wouldnt be much difference in just putting up new panels on the new house.

Batteries on the other hand, Much easier moved. (and batteries dont effect the BER rating)

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618624#Comment_119618624

4x Sunport 455w panel from DoneDeal (new) & ABB UNO 2.0 inverter, home made ground mount

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618414#Comment_119618414

We asked that exact Q and our installer said roughly 2k to move and put back up (was a very loose cost months ago over a coffee and before they all got mad busy). For 2k I'd likely move it as our kit is new and no learned curve for me (as I know that kit) IF I wasn't getting a price bump from having it

So if / when we do sell, we can

1) Sell 'as is' with the extra cost of the solar included. I reckon it would bump our house price. As @graememk says which gaff would you buy. I'd give estate agent the blurb on having the lowest energy bills in the area, and EV ready with the Zappi. Would be the truth, not spoof numbers (hate that marketing crap of zero bills). 10-15k is small beans in terms of house prices in Dublin anyways, so I'd expect we'd sell 'with the house'

2) Or we'll remove it if buyers won't pay for it and remove the few screw holes in the walls so it's back as was. And sale price doesn't include solar.

But it's deffo a good 'challenge' to have when selling

Galego

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611106#Comment_119611106

I wanted my installer to fit some of those 560w in my roof but he didn't really take me on. I guess the weight is too heavy and puts installers off. :-(

Are the 455w much bigger than the 410w?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619329#Comment_119619329

I got some very cheap 380W panels a few months ago that are 1.76m*1.04m. Those 560W panels at 2.30m*1.1m are just 7% more efficient per m2 panel, but I bet they are charging 100% more for them than what I paid.

Beware. Don't let those mighty high wattage panels fool you.

cnocbui

I don't get this panels last 20-30 years argument, so that makes them a viable investment. Can someone please explain.

Electric ireland have a solar savings calculator, which for Munster says that a south facing 15° roof would save €291 with a 1.6 Mw annual usage. This site says 2kw of panels will cost €5,500.

That gives a break even period of 19 years, provided there are no maintainance costs and nothing breaks and not a single cent has to be spent additionally to facilitate using all of the energy generated by the panels.

I fail to see the incentive or attraction. 19 years just to break even. Invest that same €5,500 at the same ROI of 5.29% compounded and the 19 year return would be €14,646 vs the panels saving you €5,529.

Not just meh, but no way, jose.