Stress-free house rental for a fee?

St1mpMeister

Considering moving abroad but want to hold onto the property in Dublin which is in a prime location and considering renting it out in the meantime.

Is it possible to get an agency that would manage the place with zero-tolerance for those that cause damage or don't pay rent etc and would guarantee rental income for me (perhaps for a premium fee?)?

Mortgage is paid off so there's no urgency on the income front should things go pear-shaped but really just trying to get a sense of things.

Neighbors are renting an identical property for €2,300 per month so roughly what would take home income be after fees/tax/other costs?

sportsfan90

Have you been a landlord before and how long do you intend on moving abroad for? If you plan on moving back into your property when you return then I'd think long and hard before renting it out because there's a good chance you'd have a battle on your hands trying to get it back.

If you'd have other options if you return (live with family, rent elsewhere yourself) then it could be worthwhile.

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058261776/stress-free-house-rental-for-a-fee

Zero tolerance ? What would you want an agent to do ?

dennyk

Is it possible to get an agency that would manage the place with zero-tolerance for those that cause damage or don't pay rent etc and would guarantee rental income for me (perhaps for a premium fee?)?

An agency will not do that; they have no more power to remove a non-performing tenant than you do. You can hire a solicitor to represent you in the necessary legal proceedings if you aren't in the country, I suppose, but that's just going to add to your costs. Really the only use for an agency is having someone local who can do the administrative work and take care of necessary maintenance and repairs and can collect the rent and remit your tax payments so that the tenant doesn't have to be responsible for it.

No agency will guarantee rent payments; there's no money in it. Rent guarantee insurance is a thing, but I don't believe anyone in Ireland offers it; there was a company that tried some years back, but they didn't last long. It takes so long to remove tenants who are in arrears here that they'd be paying out the maximum policy value every time, so the only way they'd make money is by charging you a huge premium in any case.

All the stuff about rental income taxes can be found on this Revenue page. How much you'll pay will depend on how much other income you have that's subject to Irish taxes, which will depend on your tax residence status. If you have no other non-employment income, you work exclusively outside of Ireland, and you are not tax-resident in Ireland, then all of your rental income would probably be in the 20% income tax band. You'd be well advised to check with a tax professional for advice on your particular situation, however.

One other thing to keep in mind; if you're planning to return to Ireland after a short time (e.g. only a year or two), it might not be worth the potential hassle of renting the place out. If you get a bad tenant and they overhold and refuse to leave when you need the place back, you might find yourself stuck living in expensive short-term accommodations for months or even years while you go through the process to remove them, which would quickly eat up any profits from your rental income. There's also always a risk that the laws might be changed and you might no longer be able to terminate a tenancy to move into the property yourself in the future. All in all, being a landlord is a risky business; even if you are planning to be abroad indefinitely, you still might want to consider selling the place instead; it could work out better for you in the end and be far less hassle than letting it.

dennis72

Do rar keep 1 bedroom for yourself

No RTB registration req

It's means you maintain procession

If vacant could be a problem with ins you must contact them.

If let mortgage provider might seek high investment rate

When you return its still your house If you let it you may never get it back

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119574049#Comment_119574049

Which breaks basically Rule 1 of the Rent a Room Scheme...

For you to qualify for rent-a room relief, your home must be located in the State and you must occupy it as your sole residence during the year of assessment. 

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/rent_a_room_scheme.html

Dial Hard

I totally get people's reluctance to rent in these circumstances given the utterly broken system, but as someone who has had to move home at 40 years of age after 9 years of renting the same house, which I loved as if it was my own, it kind of breaks my heart to think of how many properties are potentially sitting empty for a year or more at a time because their owners just can't risk renting them out.

dennis72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119574084#Comment_119574084

Ok but without RAR 2 bedrooms let does not req RTB registration as they are not self contained so are licensee's easier to end residency when u return.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119574251#Comment_119574251

Still not a guaranteed solution. If the owner is not living in the property, the RTB may deem this to still be a rental in stead of a license arrangement, as the owner is not living in the property.

tabby aspreme

Are there any agencies that do short term corporate letting

C3PO

There is no stress-free way of renting in Ireland. If the tenants decide not to pay, overhold or wreck the house, you have limited and slow options … no matter who is managing the property!

dennis72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119580746#Comment_119580746

It is and I quote

Persons occupying accommodation in which the owner is not resident under a formal licence arrangement with the owner where the occupants are not entitled to its exclusive use and the owner has continuing access to the accommodation and/or can move around or change the occupants

I have done this in a limited supply market quality tenants are plentiful. No rent caps or RTB regs required end of.

Stated clearly on RTB site

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119587980#Comment_119587980

The RTB also say in their decision in Deans Court

https://www.rtb.ie/documents/TR0914-000847/TR0914-000847-DR0414-11559%20Report.pdf

"Where a licence agreement is claimed, not only the written form of the licence but the reality of how it is operated (or its substance) must also be examined and the Tribunal is satisfied that the reality as operated on the ground in this given case points clearly to a licence agreement and not a lease agreement"

Until your agreement with your licensees has been scrutinised by the RTB you cannot be sure that it will not be deemed a lease.

Giblet

For RAR you would only be able to charge rent for the room, so a lower amount than the full property. You would then need to manage multiple tenants separately, any of which can just leave with short notice.

Giblet

Charge a larger deposit, prefer a tenant with young professional family, maybe with a school nearby, and instruct your agent to deal with any issues such as white good repairs etc. You shouldn't have much of a problem then, and the larger deposit can weed out people who would damage your property.

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119574111#Comment_119574111

Who do you blame for them not been able to take the risk?

spaceHopper

The problem is,

you can't charge more than a months rent as deposit.

If they stop paying the rent you have through a process with the RTB that takes 2+ years

If you want to move back and they don't want to leave you have through a process with the RTB that takes 2+ years

.....

If you must rent it out, I'd talk to a few architects and rent it to people who are doing renovations and need to move out that way you will have short term tenants and no messing with overholding. Or you could do corporate letting

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119595733#Comment_119595733

Successive governments.

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119595733#Comment_119595733

Abusive landlords. The regulation was just a reaction to abusive practices in the past.

dennis72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119595917#Comment_119595917

Nothing done about bad tenants so it was just an excuse to socialise private market now starved of abusive LL lol

Good exchange for short supply and higher rents

I live in a jurisdiction where 2 months is req and when I leave it must be handed back in the same condition no walking away leaving a skip full of rubbish Irish style.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119580746#Comment_119580746

If an owner rents individual rooms to separate individuals and those individuals don't have a joint lease for the entire dwelling, and the kitchen/living/bathrooms/outside & entrance are shared, and the owner can come and go, let rooms or leave them empty, I dont see how can those rooms could be described as self contained dwellings as the legislation requires.

Whether the owner lives in or not, I don't see how they can be classed as 'tenancy dwellings'. If the RTB was to describe each of those rooms as a tenancy, then each would need to be a separate dwelling and comply with all the regulations for residential rentals.

On the other hand, if an entire self contained unit was rented by a single person, or a couple, or a family, or a group of friends, then the landlord would not have continuing access or couldn't change one or more of the occupants. The landlord would be entitled to receive the entire rent even if one member of a group left, eg. the same way that a family would still pay all the rent even if their teenager moved away to college, the parents couldn't reduce the rent because the kid was away. Tenants have exclusive use of the entire place but are liable for the entire rent and utilities. Licencees are only liable for their own room rent which may or may not include utilites.

Imo, if some RTB dispute case deemed a multi-occupant property to be a tenancy rather than a licensee arrangement, it must have started out as a joint tenancy at some stage. If the names on a lease changes because someone leaves, whether that tenant is replaced (assigned or sub-let) or not, the lease t&c's are still the same, all rent due etc.

If one licensee leaves, it has no effect on the others, the owner is only due rent for any occupied rooms. If utilities are charged separatly, maybe owners should keep bills in their name, charge a regular amount upfront and then a balance when bills are received. Doing things separately is more paperwork but maybe it would give owners less worry about things going wrong. Is my understanding all wrong here?

lawrencesummers

Take control of the process yourself and pick the tenant yourself, you can always hand it over to a management company afterwards.

look for references, information about the persons and meet them to get a feel for them, you have to be carefull what information you are allowed to ask directly for. Look for a steady job, family and community ties etc.

Personally I prioritise picking the right people over the ability to pay rent even if that meant getting a lower rent, because paid rent is better than unpaid rent.

If have always picked tenants myself and ive never had a problem with them. Once a tenant lost his job and moved out early with no penalties.

So I would make sure that I dont leave the selection of the tenant to anyone else, and i would make it clear to the tenant that they can contact you with any issues if needs be, stay in the loop because if the management company messes them around they might take it out on your house.

MakersMark

Sell the property and invest the proceeds.

We're on month 11 of an eviction for overholding tenants.

RTB are incredibly slow.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598516#Comment_119598516

The approach that the RTB take is to look at the actual situation rather than the legal form. If the owner has a room for his/her use, but is not using that room, they may deem that the remaining occupiers to have exclusive use of the property, and therefore to be tenants in stead of licensees. Even if there is a licensee agreement, the RTB may still look past that and decide a resident is a tenant if the circumstances suggest that is the reality.

I'm not saying I agree, its just a risk.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602323#Comment_119602323

Thanks dubcount, just trying to understand how things work. So would the rtb only apply that interpretation to non-ppr's?

Presumably if its a PPR and an owner is working away (say house in cork, job in dublin) the fact that licensees have access while the owner is away would not change their status to tenants. It's not really exclusive access, more like shared access, ie the occupants could not bar or prevent the owner from entering the property at any time they wish.

If the owner has not made a legal agreement to grant another party exclusive rights to the place, it's hard to understand how the rtb can override that. If that's their interpretation, how do small b&b owners not run into problems with their guests/licensees?

It seems different imo to when a lease has been entered into, and the owner hands over exclusive occupation.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603321#Comment_119603321

Second guessing the RTB is difficult. I'm not certain how a case will be viewed in the RTB but they do tend to be "tenant leaning" in my view. Even for a PPR, there is a risk they could say the owner is not resident in the property, so the people staying there "in effect" have exclusive use of the property, so they're tenants and all that that implies. Whether that is a correct legal interpretation by the RTB or not - who knows - but nobody is going to have deep enough pockets to find out.

Also, a property being a PPR or a property owner being away with work for a defined period doesnt seem to be considered in any of the bundles of legislation for property letting. There are very sad examples of property owners being left homesless while a tenant overholds etc.. The majority of tenants/licensees are good honest people who pay their way, leave when they are supposed to, and treat the property they live in with care. If you end up with one of the minority, there simply isnt a route which guarantees the law will be on your side.

St1mpMeister

Interesting, thanks for the feedback.

I was chatting to an English couple while I was abroad who mentioned they had an agency that managed their property who guaranteed rental income for 2 years, but they also said that removing a non-paying tenant was quite easy.

I told them it was not like that in Ireland, but was curious regarding the rental income insurance (which evidently isn't available here due to risk).

I guess Corporate lettings might be an option, if I could find an agency that would be able to maintain the place to the required standard (perhaps Corporates include this service themselves for a deduction in rent?)