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Any IT Hiring Managers on here ?

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  • 26-08-2022 11:28am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭


    I am 51, out of IT with 2 years hoping to make a return. Ideally hoping to get working from home or Hybrid as I have an elderly parent who can live at home while I am around. So far I am not having much luck with my applications but it may be that I don't have all the skills required on the job description or my age who knows. I don't apply for anything that I at least don't have some of the skills for.

    I am wondering what a hiring manager would think if I stated on my application that for example I am willing to work for a fairly reduced salary/rate for the first month or do the first week for free. Would this be viewed positively or some act of desperation ? 

    The message that I want to convey is that I am keen to get back into the workplace (from a Non IT Role), I am flexible with remuneration and I would be keen to minimize a possible perceived risk by an employer so maybe a short term contract.



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Comments

  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    One the many things I do where I work is look at CVs for prospective technical hires.

    If you have a question, feel free to PM me.

    I would never discuss salary without an interview, you are starting from a place of weakness.

    If you have a skills gap,either close the gap or be able to show that you ar ein the process of closing it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭broken sink


    Thanks for the offer. In due course I may take you up on that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    Maybe a part time springboard course in computer science would be worth doing? They're free/cheap and not difficult or much of a time commitment, but it's an extra bit of paper that shows "continuous professional development" or whatever.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26 qba73




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,511 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Most companies of any scale would have policies that would prevent you working for free; nor would taking someone on at a significantly reduced intro rate be normal either

    Nobody ever has all the skills required for a role, those doing the actual interviews understand that - you just need enough on your CV to get past the HR drones. Have you had someone look over your CV?


    Also - while its blatantly easy to get a good guess at age from other dates, don't put your DOB on the CV. It's only important when you're 16/17/18 and there's restrictions on hours or what you can do/sell. But I still see it on nearly every CV I've ever looked at!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,824 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    As an IT Operations Manager myself, I've previously hired guys based on their attitude and having the basics but a general interest in IT - but it depends on the type of role you're applying for and what experience you have from other roles, as well as a willingness to learn and get stuck in.

    I took in a guy who was about your age about 10 years ago now and I've brought him with me to 2 subsequent companies because of his approach to the job.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,868 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    HR drones / bots are likely the problem: once you are over 50, you are "late career stage" so no ones priority. Doing a course won't change that, unless you do something which is in very short supply.

    Relationships are the best way around them.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,654 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    Whats your background OP? IT is pretty broad



  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭broken sink


    Lots of Feedback. No I don't have my DOB on the CV and no I have never had it reviewed. I agree with the comments about CVs not getting past HR. I think it may even be worse with recruitment agencies as many of the staff have a non technical background. In previous companies I am aware of a few bizarre decisions HR and hiring managers have made. My background is a degree in IT. Main skill set would be SQL, T-SQL, Microsoft SQL Server Data tools SSIS, SSRS, SSAS and Oracle PL/SQL(12 years ago). A few other skills that have fallen off the radar.

    I understand companies may have policies against working for free for a week or working at a lower rate for period but personally I would have no objection against it if a company suggested it to me. Oracle PL/SQL is a good example of skill that I might need a few weeks to get back up to speed on. I may do some online course(s) but I would have more motivation of doing an online course if I knew it was benefitting the day job.



  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭Esho




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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think you need recent certs in what you've mentioned and level 7 or 8 in a IT related degree and some ITIL or Prince2 certs with perhaps some exposure to Agile to have a chance with HR and Agencies.

    If you get someone in IT hiring directly into DevOps, 3rd tier application support etc you might have a better chance or avoiding the above filter.

    The big tech companies are ageist hard to get in there. Contracting us a good way to get recent experience and skills on the CV.

    Write a CV with your last 2-3 yrs experience and you are how you look from a recruiters point of view.

    Public sector jobs are less ageist but you have to get past a similar HR/agency filter above. You might also need to do some competency interview/CV prep to be successful though.

    Make your CV short and simple. No more than 2 pages. Tailor it for every specific job application and leave off any very old/irrelevant experience. Make it visual scanable in 5 secs but enough skillset keywords the automated word scanners will pick up. Don't over sell your skillset.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Networking. Attend job fairs, industry meetups. There lots of DevOps/DB meetups on meetup that you can attend.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,558 ✭✭✭✭Creamy Goodness


    Always ignore their advice it’s really shite (read other thread where they post).

    IT Manager here. The average span of someone in my team staying is 4-5 years most are in their late 20’s early 30’s and they jump around to different experiences, salary bumps, changes in the home life (be closer to home/move abroad etc.)

    at 50 you still have 15! Years left before you hit retirement age, that’s still a good chunk of a career left and being honest having a single person do a 15 year stint in one IT job is rare but still doable so it shouldn’t scare any manager off. It shouldn’t be the sole reason they’re not getting replies I assume it’s something else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,341 ✭✭✭✭lawred2




  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007



    Now is this hogwash based on actual experience or just a random opinion are you say 50+ and searching for a job or know someone that is and have had no problem landing interviews and a job?

    Three of my mates are in their mid fifties and getting no where, not even an interview.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,341 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    For us it's more based on possessing desirable and relevant skills and experience. Not age.

    The warning bell for someone with longevity in the industry is if they have a CV which reflects maybe a ceiling in potential being reached a good while back.

    For example, a CV coming in for a mid senior position from someone in their fifties just raises questions. You will have difficulty if not applying for very senior/principal positions which would reflect the experience you should have after 20/30 years in the industry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭Esho


    Thanks Creamy Goodness.

    OP - i went through the same worries as you when I was leaving my first IT job after 5 years.

    I'd changed career in my mid 40s and was stressing that I wasnt getting responses because of my age, lack of experience etc.

    In the end I was hired by a great group of guys, then left that job and have one where I can see a future.

    Hang in - it will work out. Ask for feedback on skills and experience gaps if you're worried about them



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I understand why you say this but it's ageism. It's not a criticism but an observation.

    "...“In the context of the workplace, it includes assumptions that once people reach a certain age they become resistant to change and have less ability to learn new skills – especially in technology..."

    It also happens internally where people get pigeon holed in a role. Which forces people to have to move externally to get promoted. So hence no loyality to anyone or anything. I know that's an old fashioned concept.

    It's part of corporate management mindset which looks at people very superficially and very narrow perspective on ROI. I understand it's why it's become popular same with all modern management and HR frameworks. But it's souless.


    But I think it's useful for the OP to see the prisim that an older person will be viewed when they take a different path, to care for family will be given short thrift when it comes to interviews. They aren't looking for cultural fit, or build a team. They want you to hit the ground running at max output with minimal training or instruction. Much like a contractor.

    That's just the reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    A lot of older people start micro business'es or micro incomes for this reason. Why kill your self in IT when you do gardening in the side for someone and earn the same or more with a lot more satisfaction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,868 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble



    Focussing on "most are in their late 20’s early 30’s "

    Are most of the applications you receive from people in that age range? Or do you simply hire people in that age range, because you like them better?


    You are absolutely correct that someone who is 50 has 1/3 of their working life ahead of them. Unfortunately, many hiring managers choose not to hire people who are older than them (see above). Also many larger companies have hiring targets based on career stage, and HR actively discourage late-career-stage hiring, believing that the candidates have risen as far as they're going to go. That's not hogwash, it's been observed in HR policies in a couple of MNC, and fits the experience of a many people I know in that age group (including me).

    Or were you saying that the recommendation to get around the barrier is shite? If you think it is, perhaps you could provide the OP with some specific advice they can follow to address the problem they're having.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It's all well documented

    "...The most at risk professionals in this context, she says, were those that had failed to move into senior leadership positions, staying too long in the same middle management or technical roles, which caused them in many instances to stagnate due to lack of training or promotion. On being made redundant, such individuals tend to set up their own businesses, become consultants or even leave the tech sector altogether..."



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    So it's basically it just your perception of what happens in your company as opposed to the market and what people in their 50 actually experience. Out of interest what percentage of over 50 candidates actually get taken on? And it it's high you can expect to be receiving a lot of PMs in the coming week or so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Don't shoot the messenger.

    He's just telling you like it is. At least we know we have to think outside the box to make any further progress after a certain point. You can't just wing it anymore. That's the past.

    Good news is with a primary degree in IT and experience behind it. It's a lot less work to get that CV back in shape.



  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭broken sink


    No interest in the management side right now. Early days yet on the job hunt. I might consider doing some certification. The age thing is probably not black and white in fairness. So companies may discriminate others won't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Someone already posted past a certain point of time in role and/or experience they expect you to be manager. Regardless is that makes any sense. That's a lack of parallel technical grade, or seniority in role.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,373 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Microsoft in Dublin is hiring massively. Sales, Digital Sales, Pre-Sales and Customer Success roles. Jobs are all on linked in as well as on the Microsoft career website. They also have regular assessment center like hiring processes every Thursday.

    They have a brand new office in Dublin, they have a good rating as an employer, they provide excellent training and IT certifications, however none I know of tend to stay longer than 3 years . The salary is quite good for Irish standards, but there are a lot of internationals working there, not used to the difficult Dublin housing market. I guess they all get tired of sharing a place to live and return to their home lands in Europe after a while, - hence Microsoft is always hiring.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The Microsoft people I've worked with all seem to chasing targets and tick boxes. Their offices are amazing. But the rate of change of tech and products seems insane. They've hardly released a product before its been deprecated and they've moved to something else. I assume that take a toil. I only see younger people when I'm there. Only older people seem to customers. Maybe I'm wrong. I've never heard anyone complain about working there which is a good sign. They all seem very focused, which also is a good sign.



  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Annascaul


    From what I am hearing is that Microsoft Dublin is very much about which team you work for and what kind of manager you have. Some managers are really great and experienced other managers are totally incompetent.

    Thus the experiences differ greatly from positive to negative and everything in between. Since it's international and customer oriented it can be very different, also if you speak some rare foreign language they are more eager to hire you and probably do anything to get you on board. I think they are rather desperate to hire even though they certainly don't admit it. There are regular video conferences by invitation only to potential candidates how awesome things are there.

    The reasons for leaving Microsoft Dublin are either dealing with questionable managers, having unreachable targets at work, or the general issues around the Dublin housing situation and not being able to resolve them.

    Other than that, it's a great place to work, good perks, good training, stock options.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Probably just life in a fast pace tech.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Annascaul


    Yes and no. It's common knowledge in the IT world that products are introduced quickly and that's a fast process, - faster than other industries. Also frequent internal re-organizations are the norm, - in any multinational IT organization. Microsoft is not alone with this.

    However that's not the point I am making. Microsoft Dublin made a couple of general hiring mistakes. Most internationals relocating to Dublin and accepting employment there were negatively surprised about the high cost of housing, also the cost of food in supermarkets is higher than in mainland Europe. Microsoft Dublin started then to state "Start here and go anywhere", - meaning they allowed to be transferred to some other country after one or two years in Dublin.

    Then before the pandemic they paid around 8000 to 9000 Euros in relocation fees to Dublin right in the beginning of employment provided that they stay at least for one year. This has caused for a lot of new hires just to stay for one year be demotivated and then leave, again the cost of housing would have been the issue. I think it would have been better to pay the relocation fees only after successful completion of the probationary period.

    Yes, the new office sure is nice, but they could have built that somewhere in the Netherlands as well, and attracted more of an international crowd more long term, as housing is a bit better, and the Netherlands are equally attractive.

    During the pandemic lot's of internationals returned to their home countries as well.



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