Who shot Michael Collins.

After many years a consensus emerged around Sonny O’Neill. But then there is the missing post mortem, the head wound so large that meant Collins cap was filled with blood and brain matter, the suspicions of Dalton as spy or blue on blue, McPeake the defector’s defector. Start your engines.

TheValeyard

Sonny O'Neil is the primary suspect. But know one will truly ever know.

And I say that because (I'm sure some here have) if you read the reports from those claiming to be there that day, it comes off as chaotic and hazy.

Cumhachtach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058259919/who-shot-michael-collins

Will have a watch of Collins 'Cold Case' with Marie Cassidy Wednesday night.

Sonny O'Neill is very much Tim Pat Coogan pushed.

I still blame Rhy Myers. And he was probably drunk😉

Subzero3

Pat short in Fr Ted.

buried

They could exhume the remains, examine the body, seeing as how there is no autopsy report or reason for the death certificate issued. They could quickly establish the range of the fatal bullet shot. Bit suspicious the authorities do not want to do so, seeing as how they have glorified the man for their own ends.

Dr. Bre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507471#Comment_119507471

I thought that was JR

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507458#Comment_119507458

Well sonny o Neil stated he “dropped a man” in the aftermath of the ambush when I don’t believe any of the ambush party knew that Collins had died, and given that Collins was the only person to die, it’s not that much for people to have put 2+2 together.

My understanding is that while there wasn’t a formal autopsy done that night in shanakiel hospital there was a doctor from the mercy sent for and he did record his observations of the wound in the hospital. One thing I’ve never understood is why they carried him upstairs in that hospital when there were rooms downstairs.

Mullinabreena

Isn't there a conspiracy theory that he was murdered by his own side. 4 or 5 guys attacked him and his 25 bodyguards and know one injured but a ricocheted bullet just hit him in the head. I think they believe he was making moves to invade the North behind the scenes or something along those lines.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507487#Comment_119507487

One man represents Dev's party, the other wanted to commemorate the RIC/Tans. I don't think there's one of them should be claiming his legacy.

brokenangel

I got a photo and all

Cillian Murphy or Jonathan Rhy?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507443#Comment_119507443

And lots of lying to protect those who were there from reprisals. Not just a bullet to their own head but hopes of a livelihood in later life. Always going to be messy.

Subzero3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507502#Comment_119507502

Ya your right. Thought I heard him saying "fader, I killed midal cawlins".

saabsaab

Sonny wasn't even at the ambush site at the time. Stated in a book on the subject by former Irish Army Captain John M Feehan.

The Shooting of Michael Collins: Murder or Accident Mercier Press, c1981. ISBN0946645035.

no official inquiry into Collins’s death, no records of an autopsy, and no death certificate!

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507548#Comment_119507548

he wasn’t there that night ? Well why would he have lied and said he.

saabsaab

'Art historian and performer Paddy Cullivan has uncovered new evidence to suggest that Sonny O'Neill could not have been the shooter.

O’Neill is mentioned in a 1924 Free State intelligence report as a “first-class shot”, but there is no evidence Cullivan says to suggest that he ever operated as a sniper either for the British army or the IRA. Had he been a sniper, he would have been deployed as one in the War of Independence.

Moreover, Cullivan has uncovered documentation from the German archives which shows that when O’Neill was repatriated as a prisoner-of-war in 1918 he had a severe wound to his right arm. O’Neill was captured in 1918 while serving with the Royal Irish Regiment (RIR) in the war.

Disability pension

He had been in the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) before the war and reapplied to join afterwards but was rejected on the grounds of his disability. He also received a disability pension from the British army after the war.

Documentation found by Cullivan in the British archives show O’Neill was judged to have had a 40 per cent disability to his right arm at the time he allegedly shot Collins.

In his two-part documentary The Murder of Michael Collins, Cullivan says O’Neill’s disability alone would have ruled him as the sniper.

The distances involved is another factor, Cullivan believes, in ruling him or another anti-Treaty ambusher as the assassin. According to witnesses on both sides at Béal na Bláth the ambush party were 150 metres (450 feet away) and the shot was taken at twilight when visibility was low.

By comparison Lee Harvey Oswald was 100 metres (300 feet away) when he shot former US president John F Kennedy in Dallas on November 22nd, 1963 and he needed three shots to hit the president.

Cullivan states that for a disabled man like O’Neill to have hit Collins with a single shot to the head from a distance of 150 metres in poor visibility was like “winning the Euromillions lottery twice in the same week”.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507565#Comment_119507565

Some of the ambush party said he wasn't there at the time of the shooting. Why indeed?

Cumhachtach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507506#Comment_119507506

Sonny may have thought he dropped a man. I know a sniper at that distance would generally know.

Hard to see any differently really. Why were the state reports on Collin's death destroyed by Desmond Fitzgerald in the Phoenix Park before FF came to power in 32🤔

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507616#Comment_119507616

Okay. In fairness meda Ryan goes into huge detail about the ambush itself in her book and the whole thing was chaos with people not knowing where their colleagues were so imo because they said he wasn’t there might not be them knowing where he was. It’s weird that it the convey were a couple of minutes late getting to the ambush site then it would never have happened as the ambush party(what was left of it) were leaving and I know some ran back once they heard gunshots.

it’s amazing to think that 100 years ago right now this was all playing out.

saabsaab

See attched IT article on the subject..

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/who-killed-michael-collins-new-evidence-casts-doubt-on-chief-suspect-1.4653243

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507706#Comment_119507706

I has actually been told that there was evidence that sonny o Neil due to an injury would’ve had difficultly taking the shot but I hadn’t heard he’d gotten a pension because of it.

AllForIt

Cliff Barnes and Sue Ellen were the primary suspects but turned out it was Kirsten, Sue Ellen's sister.

If like me you have an interest in the highways and byways of history it’s important to understand weaponry and training. A little taster follows which might help with the rather loose term of “sniper”.

https://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/43102565094/the-mad-minute-marksmanship-training-in-the

walshb

..

Galwayguy35

The programme on Wednesday should be interesting but whether it will tell us anything we don't already know remains to be seen.

And the Lee Enfield rifle of the era at www.greatwarforum.org and look up Nathan Greenfield

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507616#Comment_119507616

In that IT article you posted it’s says sonny o Neil was at the ambush. That’s the thing though as time passes memory’s fade.

And another point I’d forgetten was that it’s believed it was a ricochet bullet killed Collins so could sonny O Neil have missed badly and his shot bounced up and hit Collins.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507833#Comment_119507833

A few people by the sounds of it.

The disability thing isn’t of great relevance if you have a round in the chamber of a bolt action rifle. All you have to do is the trigger. A rifle propped on a piece of the bank, a figure 100-150 meters away: a trained soldier might have aimed at the chest and hit the head. It’s not the gotcha Mr Cullivan thinks.

The One Doctor

You know this happened 100 years ago, right? Bit late to argue 😉 ver the details.

Whether Collins was assassinated or not makes no difference to anything now.

Miadhc

https://www.thejournal.ie/michael-collins-centenary-beal-na-blath-ambush-battlefield-assessment-5842792-Aug2022/

serving Commandant in the Irish DF gives his take on it. He doubts the friendly fire claim.

Decent analysis.

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507487#Comment_119507487

Not suspicious at all really. Exhuming a national hero’s 100 year old body to satisfy some theorists would be a bit distasteful. It wouldn’t achieve anything else.

buried

My grandfather used to tell me the story of a man he worked with, said he went to pay his respects where Collins was laid out in state, this man said that there wasn't a mark on him. Basically no mark of anything to the front of his head or the face. Photographs taken while he was laid out also show little to no damage to the face. Now, that could mean it was a bullet shot to the back of the head, but, as a soldier who basically invented modern Irish guerilla warfare, Michael Collins didn't get to where he did by exposing his back to enemies he knew were present out in such a field of a guerilla ambush he had actually taught himself.

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507911#Comment_119507911

Distasteful my arse. If the same thing happened to you or me, they wouldn't be two seconds digging you or me up. I mean, the least they can do is give the man a legitimate autopsy report for cause of death. He deserves one far more than you or me.

Cumhachtach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507816#Comment_119507816

🙄🙄

What are your qualifications in history?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507899#Comment_119507899

I disagree. What if those (or at least some of those) responsible for the founding of the State were involved in killing a colleague? What if a British agent carried out such a killing? A rewrite of the History at least.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507964#Comment_119507964

why?

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507948#Comment_119507948

I wouldn’t be religious but anytime you dig up a corpse it should serve a significant purpose and I wouldn’t be the only person who think digging up Collin’s 100 year old corpse would be in poor taste. Filling out an autopsy report doesn’t do it for me but might for some of a different persuasion.

Cumhachtach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508080#Comment_119508080

I find your posts condescending. And I don't know what qualifications you have.

Count Dracula

Florence O'Donoghue was head of intelligence of the irregulars and would certainly have had a fair idea where Collins and his entourage were heading to. He chased with the hare and hunted with the hounds and it is highly likely that he had direct contact with Collins or the ability to do so as they were both active in the intelligence units since the War of independence. You are talking cloak and dagger stuff anywhere south west of the Golden Vale.

Chief of Staff of the irregulars was Liam Lynch, he was from around Fermoy triangle south west of the Galtees and Knockmealdowns, he definitely gave the nod to ambush, any connections with Dev would leak from there. Lynch literally called the shots and was most certainly Devs eyes and ears and the rest. He was the boss, in saying that he was on the same IRB council as Collins, knew him personally, so it just goes to highlight how cutthroat and nasty it got.

Motivations are anyone's guess? Lynch was a real mountain bandit and a brilliant Guerilla , knew all the tricks. In saying that i can't be positive he knew all that more about deep west Cork, but as CofS he definitely knew who did , as would have Florrie O'Donoghue.

It was chaotic stuff, radio silence, orders on one page notes that could bee eating by commanders. The fact that Dev was local could possibly have been a trope to lure Collins? But we will never know.

Trigger pullers from West Cork were widely in abundance. Any decent pheasant shooter would be able to target someone from a suitable position, anyone in that ambush Brigade would have been carefully selected by Lynch. I wouldn't rule out friendly fire either, but I would not be as cynical as arguing it was deliberate. All Irishmen who got caught up in that phuckfest of a war were literally scrapping for their lives and they all knew it. Collins being down there was bordering on lunacy, but I reckon he thought he was meeting irregulars for talks. i just doubt he would have had traitors in his circle.

It is not entirely fair of me to implicate Florrie O'Neil , he may not have been involved and he was progressive about uniting IRA members on both sides. But for sure he knew them all and whilst his intention may not have been to see Collins ambushed he certainly knew where he was, where he was going and most importantly what he was led to believe by both Anti and pro treaty commanders, it was his job to know and he was respected and trusted by both sides. As I said there were no shortage of decent soldiers to pull the trigger and Lynch modelled them all. Lynch would have been all over that operation I reckon.

It was ugly nasty stuff.

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508106#Comment_119508106

Well the significant purpose in this case would be trying to investigate the murder of a national Hero who fought for his country. Investigate the murder and establish an official cause of death and autopsy report. You say that is in "bad taste", well that's fair enough for you, but, for me the "bad taste" is members of the current official establishment utilising this mans murder as a symbol of continuation of their own perceived notions of power. Utilising it while at the same time they have, nor seek any official explanation for his murder. A investigation they could accomplish in the morning. That's what is the actual "bad taste" here.

And they do not actually have one, nor want to seek it. But they have no problem extolling his life and death, but the investigation to his murder..... nah forget about that. That's what I find really distasteful.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508143#Comment_119508143

You are one of at least two posters who used the term “sniper” loosely. I was offering some precision. It’s an interesting read and helps to put Mr Cullivan’s assertions in context.

Cumhachtach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508193#Comment_119508193

So you have no qualifications. We'll leave it there so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508262#Comment_119508262

LOL. Ah we won’t. I’m glad you feel better now.

saabsaab

Dalton's account is doubted as being accurate.

Strumms

it’s not possible to conduct a credible autopsy now..

As whats left of him would only be dust and some bones. He’s been lying in a casket, 6 feet under the sod for 100 years.

Embalming only delays decomposition, but only for a short duration of time.

even skull and bone fragments would be in rough shape…. a century later..

Cumhachtach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508311#Comment_119508311

They still can do a lot. Like the analysis of 'Towton man' from the Battle of Towton 1461. Reassembled his body and skull. Could tell how he died, his diet through gut remains and bone density etc. Collins skeleton should be in decent nick.

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508311#Comment_119508311

The bullet might still be there, none was found at the ambush scene, so maybe... I mean, the man deserves some sort of official investigation as to what happened, seeing as how there is none. They dig up people from hundreds of years ago and with modern scientific forensic techniques can tell you what sort of battle/murder wounds were inflicted as to cause of death.

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508172#Comment_119508172

His death has already been investigated. Everyone involved is dead. I doubt it’s even considered a “murder” since it happened during the early stages of the war. There’s no significant purpose left and it’s stupid to suggest there is.

The politics is something unrelated to exhuming so think what you want of that.

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508369#Comment_119508369

Where is the official record of investigation then? Where is the autopsy report to collaborate it? We have people here looking for qualifications but there is no official qualification to what actually happened to the man. Unless you know better and can link us the official investigation and autopsy?

See, this is a problem, unless the officials can give an actual official account of what happened instead of ignoring it, anybody has carte blanche to think and proclaim what they like happened. And they do.

Cumhachtach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508153#Comment_119508153

Florrie O'Donoghue unlikely I would think. Resigned from the Army Council in June. The army itself 3rd July. Having read his bio of Liam Lynch 'No Other Law', he was sick to his stomach with the decent into Civil War.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508311#Comment_119508311

Are you sure. In some cases it may be possible to find answers even decades later especially if the body was embalmed. See below..

'The body of civil rights activist Medgar Evers, who was assassinated in 1963, was exhumed during the much-delayed murder trial of Byron De La Beckwith in 1994. And U.S. President Zachary Taylor’s corpse was disinterred in 1991—141 years after his death—to determine whether he had died from arsenic poisoning. No evidence of poisoning was found, and the coroner in charge of the autopsy concluded that Taylor had died of gastroenteritis.'