Converting Petrol Car to battery.

donalh087

"I'll be sure to bear that in mind."

Ha ha.

donalh087

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509387#Comment_119509387

Are you doing it yourself??

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509691#Comment_119509691

Obviously not if he is budgeting €5k for labour 😂

@hometruths - have you any breakdown of those figures? Also what Leaf did you buy? Probably an early Leaf which at this stage has a badly degraded battery, you won't even see 30 miles range out of it in a Range Rover I would imagine.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509691#Comment_119509691

Nope. Current plan is that I have agreed an arrangement with a family member mechanic who will do the stripping of old bits out eg engine, fuel system, exhaust etc, and mount and mate the motor and battery boxes etc, and other common bits and pieces like power steering pump.

Then I hope to a get an autoelectrician to connect all the wiring and test it.

I have a thread on it in another forum which has more detail if you're interested: https://****/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1654

ETA - I see that other forum is censored. See screenshot:

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509799#Comment_119509799

It's still very back of the envelope stuff. Haven't bought the donor yet.

I am working off ideally get a complete crashed leaf, probably in the UK, and landing it here for approx 5k. This is based off online ads I have seen in breakers/auctions etc in UK. I have also seen motors stacks advertised for 1500 - 2000. Leaving 3k for a battery pack. At this price range, the batteries vary hugely, and yes I have considered whatever I get will have degraded somewhat, and that will effect the range.

If the best range I can manage in budget is 30 miles, so be it. It's a start and having done the conversion it is relatively simple to upgrade the batteries in the future as time and funds allow.

danoriordan1402

If you had a spare 30k Sterling 🙄, you can covert an old landy with a drop in kit

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/ps28800-kit-turns-your-old-land-rover-defender-ev

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509942#Comment_119509942

Unfortunately I don't have a spare 30k sterling hence why I am pricking about trying to buy a crashed Nissan leaf!

unkel

@hometruths - found your link, just past it into a browser and replace the **** with gooboodotayeee 😁

Why go to the UK for a crashed Leaf, prices over there are way higher than here and you can buy a fully working Leaf here from about €5k, no issues with import duty / VRT / VAT etc. Like this:

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/2011-nissan-leaf/31908829?campaign=23

As for your worry about weight and weight distribution - might not be a problem at all. Leaf motor + inverter is a lot lighter than the old diesel lump plus ancillaries. Stick part of the battery pack in the front and a smaller part in the back, you are getting rid of fuel tank and spare wheel, which saves a lot of weight. I haven't tested it, but I'd be fairly sure my E36 is lighter now as an EV than it was as a diesel.

Best of luck with your plan, you should start a thread on it here on boards too!

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510026#Comment_119510026

Why go to the UK for a crashed Leaf, prices over there are way higher than here and you can buy a fully working Leaf here from about €5k, no issues with import duty / VRT / VAT etc. Like this:

I haven't turned my back on Ireland at all, and if something good pops up I'll buy it. Just most of my research centred in UK as their is a lot more choice, and I'm hoping for a 2015 leaf with a better battery in the UK! (bearing in mind the aerodynamics and weight of a Range Rover compared to a leaf!)

Wasn't going to worry about if buying a crashed one as would be breaking for parts I need, selling as much as I can of what I don't need, and weighing the rest in.

As for your worry about weight and weight distribution - might not be a problem at all. Leaf motor + inverter is a lot lighter than the old diesel lump plus ancillaries. Stick part of the battery pack in the front and a smaller part in the back, you are getting rid of fuel tank and spare wheel, which saves a lot of weight. I haven't tested it, but I'd be fairly sure my E36 is lighter now as an EV than it was as a diesel.

My worry about weight distribution was because I wanted to keep the original battery pack intact for simplicity. As you say weight distribution not a problem if you split the pack, which it looks like I'll have to do.

unkel

You'll probably have to split the battery pack anyway as it will likely not fit anywhere in the RR as a whole 😁

Good thinking about getting parts from a newer (from very late 2013) Leaf, their battery is a lot less prone to degradation and will give you about 100km real life range in the Leaf, so perhaps 60km in the Range Rover (not at motorway speeds)

pron

Not a RangeRover .. but this guy's converting a Freelander with a Leaf motor and eGolf battery pack : Ongoing, but now a moving lump : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRhFZUZKXlOEvw35vr4P-7g/playlists

blackbox

For a 3 litre petrol Shogun, LPG would be a much more sensible option.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510227#Comment_119510227

Do you know any auto electricians who would wire the thing up assuming everything was in place?

What I've discovered is there is very little run of the mill commercial expertise in this stuff - it's either companies charging 50K for really high end bumper to bumper conversions with Tesla bits or eccentrics working in their sheds!

Girl Geraldine

If you are reworking the Leaf powertrain, I would be very skeptical of it actually working as a transplant, even if you match everything up electrically and mechanically. You'd need to establish whether it is possible to replace the control software so that the controller will allow the powertrain to function outside of the original vehicle.

Even disconnecting and reconnecting an electronic component, the controller module will detect an anomaly and will either disable or severely limit the vehicle's performance until it is re-set by a dealer's diagnostic machine. Even modifying the length of a cable in the CAN bus network could throw the system out of kilter.

An example is this: The recipient vehicle is obviously not going to have Nissan Leaf door latches, which would be connected into the CAN network on the Leaf. Therefore they would have to be left out of the network. Then the transplanted ECU will detect that there is an anomaly on the network as the door latch device is absent/non-responsive/or returning a fault condition. ECU says, right, there is a significant fault somewhere on the vehicle, therefore no start and no drive.

The same could be said of a multitude of networked Leaf components and devices which could not be transplanted into the recipient vehicle - light fittings, parts of the centre console, dash board, window regulators, boot latch, ABS sensors, seat belt latches, seat presence sensors, steering wheel angle sensor, brake hydraulic circuit pressure sensor, airbag systems etc etc the list is endless. Anyhow, any modern car that is badly crashed, the ECU will lock it down and prevent it driving, even if it is still mechanically, physically capable of driving. Depending on how it is made and programmed, it might not even be possible to re-set it to a working condition after such an event. So be careful of what donor car you buy - it might be in brick mode after a crash.

Must be remembered that most manufacturers these days do their best to lock down their vehicles so that they can't be modified or tinkered with, at least not without some highly specialised skills, equipment and software.

In an endevour like this, the mechanical and physical bit is actually the easy bit. It is the software and component networking bit that will be the biggest hurdle and the potential show stopper. If there is after market software that can cater for such modifications, well great if you can source the software and someone with the skills to implement it.

Maybe there are aftermarket custom ECUs out there that can be tailored for a build like this. But i would imagine the would be difficult to source and extraordinarily expensive.

Some manufacturers make things where it is not even possible to install modded firmware, such as Tesla who have everything electronic totally locked down and it isn't physically possible to modify or even service.

Now you will see some conversions on Youtube with tesla power trains, but these are usually exotic or very noteworthy classic cars with very wealthy enthusiast owners who have pumped in tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to have one-off customised ECUs and software created for their projects.

zg3409

Most conversions using leaf parts I have seen do not use the "computer" from the leaf instead use an open source or non leaf controller to trigger the leaf hardware. This then becomes a mixture of two systems and somewhat complicated with software settings etc.

In order to mate a leaf motor to a non leaf gearbox you at the very least need an adapter plate custom made up and in some cases you might need specific gearing.

The budget seems crazy tight particularly if existing car needs respray, upgraded suspension. The weight distribution would be an issue if you don't split the pack and if you split the pack you need battery boxes to hold them. You possibly need non leaf battery chargers too.

Normally I recommend start simple with say a beetle and a bolt in conversion kit. Then work up to more advanced projects. A 24kwh leaf battery would struggle to get 60 miles when new, so I would be worried on real world high speed range.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510486#Comment_119510486

If you are reworking the Leaf powertrain, I would be very skeptical of it actually working as a transplant, even if you match everything up electrically and mechanically.

It definitely sounds like somebody pissed in your cornflakes regarding electric vehicle conversions. What's the angle here?

Despite your skepticism that such an idea is even possible, I have checked that I'm not attempting to reinvent the wheel with this. And lo and behold I discovered it works. And not just in theory. Loads of other people have done it and are prepared to share their knowledge and experience of how they have done it.

And that's what I hope to do too.

You'd need to establish whether it is possible to replace the control software so that the controller will allow the powertrain to function outside of the original vehicle.

That's a very good idea. I wish I had thought of it sooner. Luckily I'm not in too deep just yet.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510487#Comment_119510487

The budget seems crazy tight particularly if existing car needs respray, upgraded suspension.

The budget is tight yes. No respray required, nor upgraded suspension anticipated. I spent a ton of money on welding the chassis about 5 years ago so hopefully nothing needs done there either.

The weight distribution would be an issue if you don't split the pack and if you split the pack you need battery boxes to hold them.

I will split the pack so the wight distribution is not an issue.

You possibly need non leaf battery chargers too.

That will be an unexpected and unbudgeted problem. Hopefully not.

Girl Geraldine

No piss in my breakfast 😂

I am just trying to illustrate that an EV build is a far cry from the likes of retrofitting a cosworth engine into a 1985 Ford Escort. The vibe I got in the OP, was that he saw it along the lines of a "buy a scrap donor, get the angle grinder, vice grips and a socket set, and Tommy below who's a dab hand with the spanners and we'll be on the road by the weekend".

It is more of an automotive electronics and software project than a mechanical project.

unkel

@hometruths - "It definitely sounds like somebody pissed in your cornflakes regarding electric vehicle conversions. What's the angle here?"

No, not really. @Girl Geraldine makes a lot of valid points but she (?) is not very familiar with how these are usually resolved in EV conversions. @zg3409 briefly mentions that open source software is used. This to work with new boards made after reverse engineering the existing hardware and software. Even for Tesla, @Girl Geraldine! Tesla chargers in particular are cheap and at 10-11kW very powerful. Tesla motors and converters are also widely used. But cheapest and easiest these days seems to use Toyota / Lexus hybrid hardware.

Anyone interested in this stuff should go visit

https://openinverter.org/forum/

Girl Geraldine

Good to see that opensource ECUs and control systems are exist , that is a start. But are they available in Ireland, and more importantly, is there anyone available in Ireland who has the knowledge, skills and experience to set up and configure such a system. And if they are, will they cross the country to take on that part of an EV build? And what is their fee likely be for their time in such a specialised field? I can't imagine that they would be selling their time cheaply.

pron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510934#Comment_119510934

Many of the core developers on OpenInverter are Irish :)

Boards are "open-source" .. you can get 'em made up easily enough in small batches with the likes of pcbway

After that - it's wiring and fine-tuning .. from my perspective the physical making / mounting would be the difficult bit tbh

Girl Geraldine

Sounds like a specialist skill that would need to hived off to someone who deals in electronics. Doesn't sound like a DIY plug and play affair.

pron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511073#Comment_119511073

Maybe. But then changing a timing belt is a specialist skill too - just happens to be one many folk have developed out of necessity.

If we all ran away at the hint that something might be moderately difficult (and swapping a PCB, configuring a few parameters, and setup of charging BMS is mostly Plug and Pray these days) - we'd be beholden forever to OEMs and Dealerships :)

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510934#Comment_119510934

The guys on openinverter.org run courses where you are specifically taught how to convert your own car. Using open source software and resources. In Ireland!

Some of the leaders / gurus do offer their (paid) help if someone struggles with their particular build

Of course this is not for the average Joe Soap and of course this is not like building a wardrobe from an Ikea flatpack. But there is progress, people have been enabled to do their own, there is lots of help and support out there and companies will be springing up that will convert cars for reasonable money. It will always remain in the fringe for sure, but I feel it is a great way to re-use cars that would otherwise possibly have been scrapped. Typically older highly polluting cars that will now be zero emissions. A lot of the people interested in this are also interested in renewables and many have solar PV setups that (partly or mostly) charge these cars from the sun

Here's another Irish lad who converted his old Audi eighty to 8E 😁

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-19dQ-rBQg

donalh087

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510636#Comment_119510636

'The vibe I got in the OP . . . . '

Sweet Jaysus, as the original poster I said absolutely nothing like that. You have a wild imagination or you are simply making it up.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514816#Comment_119514816

Happy to share any info with you if I do go ahead, or if you're in the same neck of the woods and want come and take a look at my car if it works etc, no problem, I won't piss in your cornflakes, just PM me.

_chrskly_

I'm probably going to regret this, but, .....

I'm in the middle of a conversion myself. While I'm no expert, as someone who has actually built a functional EV drivetrain from parts from the breakers yard, and have actually had to deal with some of the realities that entails, I feel I have at least some authority to speak on the subject.

First of all I'll say that I'm pretty pro-conversion. I hate seeing the waste in the car industry. Conversions aren't for everyone, of course, but if you're mechanically/technically inclined, there are ways to do it that are certainly within the reach of many people.

There are a number of choices you need to make in how you will actually do the conversion that make a big difference in how easy or how hard the conversion will be. The first choice, which you often see people missing, is the choice of vehicle. That influences a lot of the later choices. E.g., front wheel drive vs rear wheel drive, size and shape of the areas that will be available to you after removal of the ICE components (fuel tank area, engine bay, etc.), age of the vehicle, and so on.

You'll note that I didn't mention weight. Turns out this doesn't matter as much as you'd think. It's an old myth. But lets not get into that ...

Next up you need to decide which components you're going to use to make up the drivetrain. I.e., motor, inverter, batteries, BMS, charger, and so on. This decision has a huge impact on how hard or easy the conversion is going to be. There is an active community of people reverse engineering components from different cars in order to use them in EV conversions. The easiest path is to piggy back on someone else's work. For example, the leaf drivetrain (being around for a long time) has been heavily worked on. You can buy a VCU to control it which is pretty close to plug and play. Say you have a FWD drive car and choose a leaf motor/inverter. You can choose to keep the existing gearbox from the car, make or buy an adapter plate+coupler to mate the leaf motor to the gearbox and you're a big chunk of the way there. The same is true for the other components. There are choices you can make which allow you to leverage other peoples work and make your conversion easier.

I'm going a more challenging way, by using an untested motor, with a mismatched inverter, creating a custom BMS and a custom charge controller, but that's a conscious choice I made. But I have a working drivetrain. It would be in the car already only I have quite a lot of restoration works to do first.

I also note I see a lot of focus on Nissan Leaf and Tesla in this thread. It's important to point out here that there are other EVs that are used as donor cars, and hybrids are actually great donors as well. People have spent a lot of time reverse engineering parts and there are a lot of options. As it stands today, I have parts from 7 different cars going into my conversion (that number will definitely go up).

I saw some comments about batteries. It's not true that the only thing available is tired old leaf batteries. Thing is, people just love to crash cars. They just can't get enough of it. And batteries are often positioned in the car in a way that means they survive a crash pretty well. Also, it's not necessarily true that batteries have to be very expensive. I mentioned earlier that hybrids can be a good source of conversion parts. The batteries I'm putting in my car came from a PHEV BMW and they can be got for as little as €1000 for a full pack that will probably give you something 50km of range. I'm putting two of them in my car. And yes, 50km (or even 100km) won't suit everyone, but the choices you make for your conversion will be a reflection of your own needs.

There's a whole diatribe I could go into on range, but I won't. Let's just say, I'll be able to charge my car to 80% in around 15 mins.

As for the suggestion that a car is an incredibly delicate web of signals and the whole thing will grind to a halt if even the slightest things is wrong is not a fair representation of matters. What's typical is that you need to emulate a small number of signals that would have otherwise been generated by, say, the engine. Since the engine isn't there any more, you basically need to fake it and tell the rest of the car that the engine is on and spinning at X rpm. This is not terribly hard to do.

As for the question of maintenance, yeah, no ****, you've built a bespoke vehicle. At best all anyone else is going to be able to do for you is change your brakes ... or other minor things. But, another way to look at it is that you've built that vehicle, so you know how everything works. You're the expert!

There are multiple cars on Irish roads which are conversions. It's possible, and not all that challenging, to get them through NCT and insured. There are just a few basic rules you need to follow and you'll be fine. The more people that do it, the easier it will get.

I also highly, highly recommend https://openinverter.org/forum/

OK, I'll stop there. Regret in 3, 2 ...

_chrskly_

Oh, and I've spent around €5k so far. Unlikely to spend a significant amount more.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119549221#Comment_119549221

Thank you for that. No idea why you would regret it - as someone who is hoping to embark on a conversion comments from people who have first hand experience of the process are very valuable and appreciated. And I daresay it's exactly the sort of post the OP was hoping for when they started the thread.

I've spent a lot of time reading openinverter, and picked up some hugely useful info. There's an insane amount of knowledge on there, most of it still way over my head!

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119549221#Comment_119549221

You'll note that I didn't mention weight. Turns out this doesn't matter as much as you'd think. It's an old myth. But lets not get into that ...

As someone who is thinking of converting a Range Rover Classic I'd love to get into that if you were keen?!

At the minute I am working off the assumption that the range limiting factors of weight and aerodynamics are closely correlated with speed - i.e the impact of lugging around a big heavy brick at 120km/h on the motorway is going to be a far bigger deal than at 30 km/h around the local town.

Is that correct? I'd love to hear your views on weight/aerodynamics.