Broke wrist at work in creche, doctor says rest required, employer won't pay while off work

JackN

A young foreign lady is staying in our house and I post this question on her behalf:

She is employed in a Dublin creche since last October, so she has only 9 months of PRSI contributions.

She fell last week on a wet surface while at work and broke her wrist. Her doctor told she should not work for six weeks. Her employer tells her that she will not be paid while she is out and she must apply to the Social Welfare for help. However, it is my understanding that she needs at least 2 years of PRSI contributions before she is entitled to any support from Social Welfare and therefore she will receive no help there.

My question is: Does the creche have an obligation to compensate her for lost income since the injury occurred while she was at work on their premises?

Thanks for any opinions.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

No, but it will form part of any compensation claim

If she has no income and doesn't qualify for illness benefit she can try and make a claim for Supplementary Welfare Allowance.

The creche isn't obliged to pay her and my guess is they won't as it would be seen as an admission of liability if she puts in a personal injury claim against them.

I'd also advise her to brush up her CV. In all likelihood she will be let go before her 12 months probation is up.

dabbler2004

I think that you're correct in saying that she won't have enough PRSI contributions for Illness Benefit. Did the creche give her a contract if employment that states what their illness/absence policy is? If the creche doesn't have an illness policy to pay employees who are out then there is no obligation afaik.

She could get in touch with a Community Welfare Officer, they can pay out discretionary amounts to those in need on a case by case basis

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/community_welfare_officers.html

Eoinbmw

Tell her talk to a solicitor!

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058259871/broke-wrist-at-work-in-creche-doctor-says-rest-required-employer-wont-pay-while-off-work

Its only a broken wrist which doesnt need rest for 6 weeks being honest. Could she ask the creche to put her on admin duties/kitchen duties or looking after older children that dont require nappy changes, lifting etc. If she doesnt intend making a claim and really wants to go back to the role she should try and find a way of getting back to work as soon as possible. Taking 6 weeks off for a broken wrist is pushing it.

gipi

She may be eligible for occupational injury benefit, which doesn't require the same level of PRSI as illness benefit.

I suggest she applies, even to have it on record as an occupational injury.

She should apply for illness benefit even if she doesn't qualify, as she may get PRSI credits while she's out of work

As others have mentioned, she may qualify for SWA.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505898#Comment_119505898

Don't take this advice.

If a doctor satscthis break needs 6 weeks rest, then it needs 6 weeks.

As a foreigner here, she should have travel insurance which will get her home if necessary.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505898#Comment_119505898

Terrible advice, unless you are a doctor and have examined the person in question.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506086#Comment_119506086

Im speaking as someone who broke their wrist and continued to work. Maybe I was lucky but my other arm still worked, my 2 legs still worked, my brain still worked and I could still talk, see and hear. No way did I need to sit on my bum for 6 weeks doing nothing in order to recover. People work and kids go to school with broken wrists all the time . Doctors are always happy to give notes to sign people off work for all sorts when its not needed - all you have to do is ask the doctor and they will sign you off. This lady could easily do admin which is abundant in a creche.

Im wondering how will she even cope at home with her broken wrist - will she need a carer to wash, dress, cook, feed her, wipe her bum? ( joking obviously)

Come on to take 6 weeks off work for a broken wrist is really taking advantage of the situation.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506555#Comment_119506555

Who’s taking advantage?

Shes not getting paid and will struggle to get social welfare support.

Shes taking her doctors advice, which is the correct thing to do.

Your experience has zero relevance.

Kalimah

How could you do admin with one hand? Type away two fingered on a pc? Bizarre. Anyway under insurance rules she wouldn’t be allowed to work in the crèche if she’s been signed off. The fracture might have been complicated too. You’d very likely need physio after the cast has been removed particularly if there was soft tissue damage.

I feel sorry for the girl. Sounds like an obnoxious place to work if they won’t pay her anything when she’s out injured.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506591#Comment_119506591

I easily done accounts work with one hand - why not? Genuine people continue to work and wouldnt let something like a broken wrist stop them. The job is adjusted to their needs

This lady appears to have made no effort to try to reach an agreement to work - just expects to sit back on social welfare or hopes that her employer will pay her. This may shock you but not every work place accident is the fault of the employer - some are the employees fault. Her employer is 100% right not to pay her. I sense shes preparing for a claim!

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506626#Comment_119506626

its 'did' not 'done'

and typing is not easy to do with just one hand so it probably isnt an option. who said the person in question didnt ask for their job to be adjusted temporarily? the chances are that nothing could be done to keep this person at work, even in a different role. if it is her dominant hand then she may very well be incredibly limited in what she can actually do. saying 'genuine people continue to work' is a bit ridiculous when it would seem this person is benefitting in pretty much no way from the situation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506591#Comment_119506591

exactly. im guessing the other poster is one of those who will still come into work when dying of a cold/the flu and put others in danger

Ginger83

She needs to speak to a solicitor about a case for loss of income against the creches insurance

Starfire20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506626#Comment_119506626

yes, she should go to work injured and risk complicating the recovery process because the most important thing here is to make sure the business isn't inconvenienced even though it was a work place injury...and doctors, what would they know, right? I'm sure your anecdote trumps their medical expertise.

smh

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506798#Comment_119506798

6 weeks rest for a broken wrist is taking the piddle. Its so easy to get a Doctor to sign you off work whether you need to be signed off or not. If the OP said she needed 1 or 2 weeks off I would have some sympathy.

Will she be resting for 6 weeks - not a chance she'll be out living her best life because she will be well able to do so and fair play to her. Arm in a sling and there wont be a bother on her. Eh maybe she'll even manage to fit in a holiday.

It would seem lots of posters hear love feeding the claims culture and driving insurance costs up for all.

Liberty_Bear

Take into account habitual residency requirements

Call Citizens Info as they are trained advocates too :)

Starfire20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506879#Comment_119506879

ah yes, how dare she not follow the advise of a qualified medical professional. She should get back to generating revenue for her employer as soon as possible.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506972#Comment_119506972

Generating revenue for her employers? So working for a wage. Says it all.

I've never come across anybody out for 6 weeks with a broken wrist. It dies seem excessive to be honest.

Starfire20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506991#Comment_119506991

not at all. 6 weeks is pretty standard for a broken bone but at the end of the day, a doctor has deemed her unfit for work for 6 weeks while it heals.

whether you think it's excessive or not is irrelevant.

the employer trying to wash their hands of any responsibility, despite it being a work place accident, is despicable imo

beachhead

Good advice to make an occupational injury claim with Social Welfare as it's important not to have any breaks in PRSI record.At moment it's optional for employers to pay for sick leave,having regard to whatever an employment contain might allow.Leo Varadkar is working it to make employers pay some form of sickness benefit.Probably depends on his re-election though to push all the clauses through the Dail.

JackN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506991#Comment_119506991

Thanks for all the opinions.

Just for clarification: I believe she has a doctor's cert for 3 weeks. Then she will have her next appointment to see how it is healing. My understanding is that the doctor said she might be out for up to 6 weeks.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507361#Comment_119507361

She'll be in plaster for 6 weeks certainly but I honestly never came across somebody out of work for the six weeks.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507320#Comment_119507320

Nope......that law has been enacted & should be 'up & running' by mid September. It'll be 70% of pay for 3days in 2022...... then 5days in 2023, 7days in 2024& 10days from 2025 on. Makes sense really following on from the early months of the pandemic...... but really it wouldn't make much difference to the young lady of thread as her entitlement to SW would be an issue.

As regards the moronic comment re going back to work with a broken wrist sooner than medical advice ......i can only assume he/she is trolling.....obviously one of those people that learnt nothing from covid

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507447#Comment_119507447

The employer has insurance, she needs to make a claim against their insurance, If there was a wet, slippery surface that caused the accident and this wasn't caused by the woman's own carelessness, then she'll likely win and her damages are assessed by the PIAB using the following guidelines

https://www.piab.ie/eng/news-publications/Corporate-publications/General%20Guidelines%20-%20Revised%20October%202016.pdf

If there was contributary negligence then the insurance company may challenge liability and a judge may reduce the award, also the claimant may seek higher awards by going to court.

In the meantime, while the claim is in progress, if she is left with no income while she cannot work, the local Community welfare officer may be able to help.

BattleCorp

The creche are under no legal obligation to pay wages while someone is out sick or injured, even if it is 100% the fault of the creche (which it may or may not be in this instance).

That said, the creche, by not paying her, are pretty much forcing the employee to put in a claim to recover lost wages etc. Paying wages while someone is out injured in these types of circumstances wouldn't be taken as being an admission of liability by the court so the creche could pay her if they wanted to.

If the employee is in the right, I would advise lodging a claim with PIAB. It can be done by the injured party, but I'd recommend getting a solicitor to do it. They'll charge a fee that has to be paid out of any award (if any is made) but it's often worth it. One word of warning. Putting in a claim might make working in the creche when she recovers awkward as creches tend to be small businesses and small businesses tend to take these things personally.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507581#Comment_119507581

The Personal Injury Guidelines were released in early 2021 and have taken over from the old Book of Quantum you have linked to. Some of the figures have been lowered considerably, especially for things like whiplash. The amounts awarded for the more moderate and serious wrist injuries haven't been altered too much but the minor end of the scale has seen a big change.

https://judicialcouncil.ie/assets/uploads/documents/Personal%20Injuries%20Guidelines.pdf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505898#Comment_119505898

Can I see a copy of her x-ray?

If she's in a creche, she won't be able to pick up a child and could be a liability with only 1 hand.

She should be entitled to supplementary welfare allowance

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507861#Comment_119507861

Thanks for updating this, I didn't know the book of Quantum had been replaced.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505898#Comment_119505898

Absolutely terrible advice. Seriously.

You haven't a clue about her medical condition, the type of broken wrist etc. I've managed a claim where someone broke their wrist in a very harmless way, had all sorts of complications and were unfit for work for over 8 months. They weren't exaggerating either. Plenty of medical evidence to prove they weren't exaggerating it (unfortunately from the point of view of my employer - the compensation was significant because of this). Not all breaks are the same.

One other point, if the creche let her back to work while she's certified unfit for work, they could end up in even more trouble.

ted1

6 weeks out is quite excessive, many people work with arms in casts. I’ve done it myself. It’s not that difficult

for people who say otherwise have you ever broke a wrist ?

a work accident will be covered by insurance, she should be sure to claim

Akrasia

Is your job something that doesn't require both arms to do competently and safely??

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507977#Comment_119507977

Would you trust a lady with a broken wrist (the condition of which you have no clue) to pick up your baby/toddler 10 - 20 times per day while they were minding them?

There's also the possibility that the creche doesn't have employee liability insurance. Unlikely, but I've seen pubs that had no employee liability insurance cover which is mental.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507977#Comment_119507977

How do you know it’s excessive for the person in question?

Are you a doctor who examined her?

ted1

so no one who replied to me has ever broken a wrist.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508110#Comment_119508110

I've never had a broken wrist, thankfully.

Are all broken wrists created equally?

Because you had a broke wrist, you are a self-appointed expert on all broken wrists?

And you are also psychic because you know the full extent of this lady's injury and know that she doesn't need 6 weeks off work with it?

Jarhead_Tendler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505898#Comment_119505898

How will she lift the kids and change them with one hand?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508141#Comment_119508141

The same way every else. It’s in a cast , it hasn’t being amputated

walterking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508110#Comment_119508110

A friend's daughter got a broken wrist in June after college exams had finished

It is only last week before she could use it normally again and that was not seen as unusual.

She could drive after 5 weeks (auto), and won't be returning to sports for a couple more weeks.

Yep, she thought 3 or 4 weeks, but that was not the reality.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508149#Comment_119508149

Have you worked in childcare for long?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508160#Comment_119508160

Yes. For the past 13 years I’ve been looking after my own 3 kids

I’ve done it with dislocated shoulders , fractured ankles and broken arm.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508129#Comment_119508129

do you know the extent of it ? You seem to think it’s the worse case scenario

Starfire20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508194#Comment_119508194

sure, but you weren't doing it in a professional capacity, where your employer is being paid a premium to have you in charge of and looking after other peoples children, with a broken wrist.

i cant understand the aversion to letting people heal properly from injuries before returning to work.

blindsider

I have a couple of shovels, a pick-axe, and, for the truly stubborn, a jack-hammer, for those who want to keep on digging.

If the lady returns to work before the doctor okays it, she is not covered by the employer's insurance.

The doctor decides when she is fit to reurn to work, using their skill, experience and knowledge. Any GP's posting here are free to contradict me on this point.

An opinion, a decent internet connection, a phone/laptop/keyboard and a comfy chair only qualify you as an 'armchair GP' - not a proper GP. That normally takes 7 yrs.

Take the hint!

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508149#Comment_119508149

Fine doing it at home with your own child. Very different scenario doing it as an employee.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508209#Comment_119508209

I know enough to know that I don't know enough about her condition to say that 6 weeks is excessive.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508285#Comment_119508285

Doctors will allow people to work if they want to. If the lady says I need to work , he or she will say fine.

i’ve got notes to allow me to work and fly.

https://www.uhcw.nhs.uk/download/clientfiles/files/Patient%20Information%20Leaflets/Trauma%20and%20Neuro%20services/Trauma%20and%20Orthopaedics/118891_Fractured_wrist_(1407).pdf

How long will I be off work and when can I drive?

This depends on your job. In general terms your wrist will take six to eight weeks to heal fully and during this time you will be unable to lift heavy items or do heavy manual work. However if you can do office-based duties you can potentially return to work with your plaster on before this time. Please speak to your insurance company with regard to driving for their regulations, but the most important consideration when driving is safety. You must not drive under any circumstances unless you are confident that you are in control of the vehicle at all times

blindsider

Pick-axe or jack-hammer?

Just give it up...seriously!

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508445#Comment_119508445

I think you need to give it up. You haven’t broken bones. You don’t know what’s it like. Doctors will have no problem letting people work

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508158#Comment_119508158

yeah that didnt happen or if it did then that person is going to have complications down the line