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False Autumn 2022

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    For a person who says he was still at school in 1992, you shouldn't take on a clinical demeanour. The love of Earth and solar system research (amateur) doesn't require that you are paid money to engage meaningfully in your passion (vocation).

    The Elvis video speaks for itself for that is what true researchers feels like when engaging their talents and gifts of expression. It is a protest song and you should listen to the words as it also has the passion of the soul flying above the doctrines of those who would make the world smaller and damaged for self-serving ends.

    I don't call people idiotic even if they suffer from inherited falsehoods from one generation to the next with a 'false autumn' just being another worthless phrase conjured into existence.



    The insanity of determining Autumn as the motion of the planet's divisor on an Earth with a zero degree inclination is the opposite of solar system and Earth science research which includes weather. No wonder students don't stand a chance of escaping your fate of being inspirationally bankrupt by choice. Unfortunately, you are not alone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    It makes life... interesting with its unpredictability, We never know what next.."infinite variety" is the spice of life



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    There was a time when men could talk of the seasons, including Autumn, in inspirational/spiritual terms as a journey. Whether it is St Francis who adored life and nature or Ruysbroeck * who put the seasons into terms of human passion as it comes and goes, we are here to serve life of humanity on the planet as opposed to misusing information on the planet to serve dour and dull convictions. People have forgotten how to read observations with heart.

    " * When the sun first begins to descend from the zenith to the nadir, it enters the sign which is called Virgo, that is, the Virgin, because now the season becomes unfruitful, as a virgin is. At this time the heat begins to grow less; and men begin to gather in, for use during the rest of the year, those ripe and lasting fruits which can be kept and consumed long afterwards, such as corn and wine and the durable fruits, which have now come to their maturity. And a part of the same corn is sown, so that it be multiplied for the benefit of men. In this season all the work of the sun of the whole year is perfected and fulfilled." Ruybroeck





  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Jesus!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Thank you. An extension and elaboration of my life out here. New to me so that is appreciated ...Will copy paste that post



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    Men's idea about nature can be false but nature itself never is.

    It was the beginning of July when Anthony Murphy discovered ancient dwellings under the parched soil around Newgrange without having to create a 'false autumn'.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Re your last sentence. That is pretty true of many sections of Boards. I just came back after a while away and it is a different place..



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The world came to appreciate plate tectonics because a meteorologist stepped outside his discipline and put together a narrative that changed the way people looked at the geology of the Earth.

    "Scientists still do not appear to understand sufficiently that all earth sciences must contribute evidence toward unveiling the state of our planet in earlier times, and that the truth of the matter can only be reached by combing all this evidence. . . It is only by combing the information furnished by all the earth sciences that we can hope to determine 'truth' here, that is to say, to find the picture that sets out all the known facts in the best arrangement and that therefore has the highest degree of probability. Further, we have to be prepared always for the possibility that each new discovery, no matter what science furnishes it, may modify the conclusions we draw." Alfred Wegener

    Perspectives are not arrived at by excluding the incorporation of different disciplines and the Earth science of climate suffers most from this by excluding planetary dynamics. Appealing to moderators to narrow the perspective is self-defeating





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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    :Language please... There is room for all ideas and interpretations in the subject.



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    By the meteorological calendar, the first day of autumn is always 1 September; ending on 30 November. The seasons are defined as spring (March, April, May), summer (June, July, August), autumn (September, October, November) and winter (December, January, February).

    We're on a meteorological thread QED. I'm sure there's a dedicated thread for discussing the seasons, where your posts should be.

    You bring this same argument to every thread Orion, obsessive behaviour. For such a creative soul with incredulous imagination you seem to have nothing else in your life bar arguing when seasons begin and end. It's not healthy. You exploded on a meteorology thread, with colourful language, when someone used the term 'British Isles' as a geographical one a while back. Your posts were very coarse and not something you'd forget if read.

    Everything you say is complete waffle, Elvis Presley singing If I Can Dream, St. Francis, reading observations with heart (I'll go out and read today's temperature as 30C because my heart wills it)🙄 You're hijacking a lot of threads. It's all very fine to say ignore you but it can be hard when there's a new condescending essay up every time you log into the weather forum.

    Criticising people calling them 'intellectually bankrupt', 'dour'. You're not Bob Dylan, Brian Cox, Akiane Kramarik.. You have to know a person before you call them intellectually bankrupt. And at least back it up with some achievements of your own to put you in such an exalted place where you can judge others. Because all I see is an internet forum crank with too much time on his hands.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    Sure I can show you an achievement. There is an innovation coming up soon that many are starting to enjoy when they make the effort.

    Next month Venus will pass behind the Sun moving from right to left while Mercury will be seen moving from left to right between the slower moving Earth at the central Sun. It is the obverse of what happened in 2013 when Mercury was in direct motion and Venus in retrograde motion-



    https://www.theplanetstoday.com/

    Just scroll the dates forward and that prediction will come through for those who will enjoy it. It is also new and original as so many others have discovered and enjoy, even in silence.

    On a separate note, the Americans will disagree with you that Autumn starts tomorrow, they determine that Autumn/Fall happens on September 22nd-

    At least they combine the season with the orbital position of the Earth and the location of the North/South poles to the planet's divisor, however, they also express the September Equinox in wild observational terms that diminish 21st century society-



    If you are a fan of Cox as the front for Royal Society (empirical) bluffing then I can understand your complaint but the material is for those who understand the Solstice and Equinox points as mid-season including mid-winter on the December Solstice and mid-summer on the June Solstice. There is nothing I haven't seen or heard in my 30 years experience and I am sorry that your reaction is nothing I haven't seen a thousand times before.

    You are better served by using your talents and passion to appreciate nature as opposed to convictions inherited from less considerate people. You will enjoy weather and the seasons more along with all the events that come with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Can you not disagree without insulting? What does it matter if some of us see things differently from you? And we do not sign any commitment when we come here to adhere to the met office rules. Or to respect them or insult free thinkers. I do not see the seasons as the met office does either. Just the day by day weather, which does not adhere to the met office rules.. Love hearing how they saw this in previous eras too

    Signing out now! Be at peace please.



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    Grade A waffle.

    I'm from a farming background, and continuing to farm, I work closely with and observe nature daily.

    Your problem is one of arrogance. You're not half as clever as you think you are.

    This is a meteorology forum. The average daytime temperature in mid May is 15c. It is impossible for students of meteorology to consider the month summer. Mid August will have an average daytime high of 20c or above. In meteorological terms August is far more a summer month.

    We accept people who use daytime length to determine summer and those who use astronomical dates to determine it.

    Maybe you have comprehension problems, or at this stage, i believe, a probable WUM but this is the meteorological forum. To remind you again.

    It's difficult to believe in your self proclaimed genius when you can't post in the correct forum. Also the fact that you're banned in the astronomy forum suggests nobody values your 'contributions' there. They're certainly not valued here.

    We all feel the onset of summer as May's bright days lengthen. Likewise the mists and mellows that define autumn appear towards the end of August and the days noticeably shorten.

    But to collate meteorological information for statistical purposes we need some sort of defined seasons. And they are defined, today is the last day of summer in the British Isles, like it or as you do, lump it.

    If we had a world full of Orions running around with their head in the planets singing Brother Sun and Sister Moon basing everything on feelings and heart we'd have no science.

    Post edited by Cumhachtach on


  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    It's not the forum Grace. And said poster is posting this nonsense in every thread and can eff and blind and be far more insulting than me. It might be new to you but most of us have seen this poster hijack threads before.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Maybe August is 'season fluid'? Sometimes it identifies as Autumn; sometimes Summer. Maybe the bigots on here just need to respect its personal pronouns.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    When a new innovation appears and delights the observer, it has little to do with the innovator but the truth behind the innovation-

    "When a natural discourse paints a passion or an effect, one feels within oneself the truth of what one reads, which was there before, although one did not know it. Hence one is inclined to love him who makes us feel it, for he has not shown us his own riches, but ours. And thus this benefit renders him pleasing to us, besides that such community of intellect as we have with him necessarily inclines the heart to love." Pascal

    The new explanation of the seasons, which includes the present approach of the Earth's North and South poles to the planet's divisor (dividing light and dark hemispheres), is also a meteorological event as well as an astronomical event.



    It will be three weeks before the Sun comes into view as the entire surface of the planet turns parallel to the orbital plane and the North/South poles lies on the divisor-



    If you come back around the March Equinox, the daily rotation of the Earth will turn Southwest to Northeast and all these things need a proper narrative and a proper platform to express these things.

    I wouldn't be so exercised on account of academics, they couldn't care less about cheerleaders even if they need them. Have some soul for a change and that all nature is appreciated through a balance of perception(heart) and reasoning (head).



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    If anything you're getting worse🤣On ignore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The seasonal terms follow the timekeeping principles of AM and PM which are anchored to midday. There is no astronomical midday and meteorological midday and neither is there a meteorological Autumn nor the new rubbish of a false autumn invented to distract from June Solstice or midsummer as the anchor for the seasons and the dynamics behind it.

    It is a question as to who values their ability to reason with discipline and integrity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭secman


    I'm afraid to ask "what time is it " God only knows where I'd end up 😃

    Why did I mention God.... aaaaaaah no ....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    Time to get out of here!!

    'And would sec in your username mean the term second that academics use to describe a fragment of time? Is time real or just a human construction made up by man to synchronise with the zodiac concept of when Jupiter passes Pluto? I get great joy from the planets when I learn to feel from my heart again and I'm not restricted by the myopic concept of the unimaginative. At this point in time the tune below really expresses the joie de vivre I feel after consulting with Tycho Brahe, Copernicus and Keppler...and not forgetting my close personal friend Pascal'.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    There is terminology around these parts regarding spring-like days in Jan/Feb that which goes as 'pet days'. I recall my own grandmother used that term a lot and she was of the belief that such pet days were an ominous sign. Spring like weather can and does occur in Winter; Winter like weather can occur in Autumn and Spring. Perhaps what we understand as 'seasons' has no basis in reality as you say, but then, what has really? Every singe word in this post is just a symbol that has no meaning in itself, yet they give you get a rough idea of what I am speaking of regardless.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    Younger people suffer from what the poet William Blake called 'Newton's sleep' or the inability to distinguish time from timekeeping and the seasons are very much part of timekeeping. Invented terms conjured out of nothing are the basis of many ills and it all began with an attempt to mesmerise an audience with phrases like absolute/relative time, space and motion-

    Readers would quickly give up as that is the intention in order to appear as though it is spoken with authority and integrity when it is merely manipulation and bluffing designed to make the reader look inconsequential. What is clockwork solar system modelling is the antecedent to climate change modelling among other things and has become dominant in our era as demonstrated so many times before. It is because I am familiar with all the ancient timekeeping references that I can untangle all the falsehoods acquired up to now including the inability to correlate one rotation with one 24 hour day. For as long as I can remember, I knew I was dealing with a subculture with very specific objectives and self-defending mechanisms.

    The Met Eireann forecasters can insist that tomorrow is the first day of meteorological autumn just as people can insist on a false autumn, however, another group of meteorologists will insist the first day of Autumn is on the September Equinox. I do not have that quandary as I follow the proper principles inherited through the ages, even if people have forgotten about them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭secman


    Leaves are still falling.....due to the drought and NOT due to drop in temperature....



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The American meteorologists will laugh at the insistence that tomorrow is the beginning of Autumn and declare it a 'false autumn' on that account as theirs begins September 22nd. The two long range threads go out of their way to insist summer is about to end so their quarrel is with the Americans or the Americans with them in a mutual disgrace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    The definition of seasons is always going to be somewhat arbitrary. I like the Irish and UK meteorological definitions.

    There are a lot of things happening in our world which are a true disgrace, with regards to war and loss of life, poverty, inequality, crime...an endless list.

    You labelling disagreement between meteorologists over the commencement of autumn a disgrace shows how truly out of touch with reality you are and wound up in intellectual pedantry.

    Post edited by Cumhachtach on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno




  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    There is no false autumn outside the low level of consideration that the meteorological community give to planetary dynamics which define the seasons across an orbit and if 4 seasons are determined then the midpoints are the Equinox and Solstice milestones. Life rolls on within two cycles of daily and annual motion, whereas the subculture insists that the planet has only daily rotation and the Sun has an annual motion-

    There is only a 'false dawn' around the September Equinox or a false dusk around the March Equinox as we see all celestial phenomena to the left of the Sun as an evening appearance and the right of the Sun as a morning appearance-

    Our ancestors understood all too well that the divisions of the year into seasons, whether the current four seasons or the ancient division of the light half (May-October) and the dark half (November-April), relied on the daylight/darkness cycles as weather is unreliable from year to year, something readers here lack the common sense to accept. These people were farmers too, and they could build monuments with wonderful features to mark the annual milestones, including the division of what is now November to February (Samhain to Imbolc) with midwinter on the December Solstice-


    That is the island's heritage displaying creativity and discipline for timekeeping while today's yokels can't manage to correlate one rotation with one sunrise/noon/sunset cycle let alone handle the seasonal cycle.

    Life rolls on indeed, but we are built into these cycles as participants and not unreliable observers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The Met Eireann meteorologist gave an extended explanation as to why this is the first day of meteorological autumn as opposed to a false autumn in August by asserting that the construct is organised around the warmest months. This flawed reasoning would set up a silly notion of meteorological v astronomical noon as thermal responses put the warmest part of the day as 2PM-4PM whereas midday, like midsummer, is a specific event based on dynamics that centres the middle of the day at noon and the middle of summer on the June Solstice.

    It is perceptual weakness that creates monstrosities like climate change modelling, a growing type of autism in society which is increasingly separated from cause and effect as it actually exists. When shown how academics choose to explain the seasons by manipulating imaging as an assault on the eyes and mind, there seems to be no pushback and that is remarkable and a poor sign-

    Maybe some day, the same meteorologists will inform society about meteorological noon, just as they now conjure false autumn or meteorological autumn into existence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    May I ask, Orion, what your definition of the seasons are? As much as you have written on the subject, this is still not clear to me.

    New Moon



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  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    I deal with the cause of seasonal changes and that includes the thermal responses of the atmosphere, landmass and oceans to the underlying causes found in the daily and annual motions of the Earth. There are specific milestones that mirror the daily rotational traits hence the constraints applied and the lack of room to conjure up unproductive definitions like 'false autumn' or 'meteorological autumn'.

    In this respect, I do not see silence among readers, I see either a lack of responsibility or a growing type of autism which is even more disturbing, after all, the NASA explanation for the seasons seen from space surpasses a flat Earth projection by many magnitudes. There is nothing difficult in determining the dynamical cause of the seasons because it can be visibly affirmed through observations of the other planets and especially Uranus-


    The dark hemisphere of the planet is absent so it is possible to discern two surface rotations acting in combination, the same ones operating on the surface of the Earth. Come to appreciate those two surface rotations and the seasons define themselves so not being capable of interpreting them properly is an internal failure of the people viewing it and, once again, the main thing is that it is not even difficult.



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    That's a politician's answer if ever I saw one 🤣

    You were asked to define the seasons, how many we have in Ireland, when they begin and end.

    I'm going to ask another question. Are you retired (seen as you think being 16 in 1992 is very young) or if working what is your career? Given the sources you quote you seem well read. Can you apply your knowledge to a paying career? Or is this just a hobby and you equally excel in some other field?



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    " You were asked to define the seasons, how many we have in Ireland, when they begin and end."

    I normally deal with the cause of seasonal changes as a point of departure for proper climate research and that means dealing with technical issues back 500 years ago. Although the cause of the seasons is fairly straightforward, untangling less productive approaches or the downright vandalism of clockwork solar system modellers is complicated insofar as terms like 'false autumn' or 'meteorological autumn' are products of undisciplined minds as is climate change modelling.

    Just for you, if you have quite finished with your reactions. The explanation is done as the observers would have seen it without the need to appeal to planetary dynamics while using the modern calendar for familiarity and convenience.

    The farmers in Ireland 6,000 years ago broke the year into a light half and a dark half with Samhain ('darker half' in Gaelic) beginning the new year, while the beginning of May represented the light half for the following 6 months. Although it is called the calendar of the Celts, it is many, many centuries older going back to the first farmers after the end of the ice age.

    As Samhain begins the new year with the declination of the Sun towards its smallest arc on the December Solstice, the first ancient alignments were not just towards Samhain at the beginning of November but also towards the beginning of February as the Sun noticeably increases its arc in Spring three months later-


    Having established a three month period from November to February, the midpoint is the December Solstice with a very precise alignment of Newgrange that would not work at any other time of the year as the declination is too rapid to have an elaborate roofbox and the other components of that amazing spectacle.

    Having determined that the Solstice alignment is the midpoint of the seasons, it extends to all other seasonal Solstice/Equinox milestones by default and meshes neatly with the light and dark halves of the year.

    The rest of the stuff about career and salary is quaint as some human endeavours such as musical composition come as a vocation so it is exercised as a gift or a talent. All people have talents to be inspired or inspiring but choose to play safe so lose their God-given ability to influence wider society as individuals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    If there are any psychologists or psychiatrists reading, could you please diagnose? Interested to know what his condition is as I've never come across someone like this before.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The old traditions on the island were both exact and colourful so your reaction is typical of a growing disconnect between you as a human participating in the great cycles and the narrow perspectives you inhabit.

    Thanks to these people who at least try to appreciate what we inherit in the landscape as annual timekeeping markers. The seasons themselves are the same as the daily timekeeping markers in some respects with special attention to thermal responses after midday and midsummer.

    The idea that a witch governs the Sun from Samhain until Brigid recovers the Sun in February reflects the Southern declination of the Sun in November matched with the Northern declination in February as daylight lengths really start to gather pace as both November and February share the same alignment. So now readers know how our ancestors divided the seasons by light and dark halves while the planetary milestones of the Solstices and Equinoxes acted as midpoints if 4 divisions are chosen, in this case, Samhain, Imbolc, Bealtaine and Lughnasa.



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    I doubt if there's anything in the DSM to cover it😅

    I'd name it DPO (delusional planetary obsession).



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    I don't do personal analysis and prefer to entertain people with genuine insights they can easily come to appreciate and while some of them are new and original, many are also quite old like the seasonal divisions on this island.

    If it is any help, the reactions I see are not responses, but a self-protecting state that some know as 'Newton's sleep'-

    I pulled that from the first website as it is a specialist who recognise some people will get it while others will not. I actually know what Sir Isaac tried to do and why it is entirely disruptive as a subculture, the same one that apes your type of comments.

    Equating the fall of an apple with planetary motions or equating conditions in a common greenhouse with the planet's atmosphere is a symptom of this 'sleep' and the manufactured terms and voodoo surrounding this self-inflicted incapacity.

    For the moment, this is about enjoying how the divisions of the seasons is part of a beautiful heritage of this island using exquisite reasoning and I hope those who can, will delight in how it was done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Thanks for the response but I admit I am none the wiser at all. Your way of explaining things goes right over my head, which is on me as I am a simple man. Science is not my forte and neither are scientific style explanations of things. Consider me one who proudly does live with their head in the clouds and I need things explained to me on that level. Anything below that and my mind just registers it as extreme, unnecessary dullness.

    New Moon



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think it goes over everyone's head as they are waffling like a bad politician to avoid dealing with direct questions and pushing some bizarre agenda. Also, very little of what this poster has to say has anything to do with the actual subject matter of this thread. Very odd stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    " Consider me one who proudly does live with their head in the clouds and I need things explained to me on that level. Anything below that and my mind just registers it as extreme, unnecessary dullness."

    That is more or less a description of a subculture so all the visual explaining is likely to go nowhere insofar as disturbing people with their heads in the clouds is quite painful for them and gets worse with each succeeding generation as the joyless reactions received in this thread demonstrates.

    Anticipating events based on cyclical weather coincident with cyclical dynamics should be a foundation first and foremost as opposed to predicting individual events like upcoming storms or heatwaves. Of course you register this as extreme dullness, nevertheless, students would be proud to appreciate how climate and cyclical weather are anchored in planetary dynamics while enjoying and using short term weather predictions as I do.

    Disturbing the notions of astronomical autumn, meteorological autumn, false autumn and so on will register as extreme dullness to those who invent those unnecessary terms while it is rare that those surveying the heritage of this island will enjoy the reasons why our ancestors divided the year into a light/dark halves while retaining the four divisions of Samhain, Imbolc, Bealtaine and Lughnasa within that framework.

    Anticipation is associated with hope, whereas dire predictions are an awful strain on humanity when framed as a false narrative (climate change modelling).

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭waterways



    Drought can damage trees and makes them less protected and immune. Your second photo shows a pattern of damage that could have been caused by the invasive horse-chestnut leaf miner.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The BBC meteorologist announced that today is the beginning of astronomical autumn on the Equinox so that would make the beginning of winter on the December Solstice. Many complaints that planetary dynamics does not belong in a meteorology forum would seem hypocritical considering what a mess such a perspective would have between the motions of the planet and cyclical weather such as the seasons.

    The sense of occasion may be lost, including the wonderful alignment at Loughcrew, Co Meath when the Sun shines directly into the monument along with other alignments at Knowth and perhaps many other places. My own personal favourite in Clogherhead, Co Louth-



    There are specific milestones which make the summer Solstice or midsummer on June 21st as the anchor for all the other seasons as this is when the North pole is at midday or noon, just as daily rotation places noon when a location is midway to the planet's divisor. After these two events, temperatures continue to rise as a signature of people who appreciate the daily and seasonal divisions properly.



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