Obligations / responsibilities after getting non EU girl pregnant

BrokenJetpack

Not sure if this is the correct forum so please feel free to move if required. I have a male friend, single no kids, owns a couple of properties (not sure if that's relevant but possibly for the legal side of things). He was seeing a Brazilian girl on and off for about 1.5 years, she's been studying and working in Dublin for the past 3 years. It was a casual relationship and has since ended, but last week she told him she was pregnant and it was about 4 weeks since they were last together. 

The girl's visa is up next February and she's been looking for a job that will sponsor her but not having any luck. She may be able to get an EU passport as her grandparents on one side emigrated to Brazil from an EU country many years ago. If she does qualify for this it could be next July at the earliest before she gets it.

So my friend is up in a heap and is wondering what's the best thing to do and what his options are. He doesn't want to get married and won't be having a relationship with the girl, but will support her financially with the pregnancy and when the child is born. Will the girl have to leave Ireland in February? She'll be 7 months pregnant by then. Are there any rules or conditions that would allow the girl to stay past February and have the baby in Ireland?

This is all new to him so any advice is much appreciated.

Hobgoblin11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058259160/obligations-responsibilities-after-getting-non-eu-girl-pregnant

you need to do the right thing, whatever that is

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484596#Comment_119484596

Sentiments are great but real advice is better.

I'm sure if there is a child born with an Irish father on the birth cert they will be entitled to citizenship? The issue however is the intervening time between say month6-7 and the birth. This is a real corner case IMO and not one I've heard discussed. Of course as per usual guidelines you should get legal advice from a solicitor etc.

Jequ0n

Why would your friend need to support her during the pregnancy if he doesn’t even know for sure that he is the father? Or if she actually is pregnant…

4 weeks after seeing her for the last time, relationship since ended…convenient.

ohnonotgmail

after the birth the mother has the right to residence in ireland as the mother of an irish citizen.

BrokenJetpack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484621#Comment_119484621

Hi thanks, I also asked him if he was sure it was his and he said he'd be 90% sure as she's a decent girl and wouldn't be messing like that. He told me she's been on the pill for years though so I'm wondering how it happened, and if she "forgot" to take the pill given her upcoming deadline in February 🤔

BrokenJetpack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484640#Comment_119484640

Thanks, do you reckon she'd have to leave Ireland in February being 7 months pregnant?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485651#Comment_119485651

strictly speaking, yes, as she would no lomger have a visa. If she did stay on for the extra few months i can't see her having any issues.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485642#Comment_119485642

Well, if I was him I’d want to see some proof that she is a) pregnant and how many weeks, and b) proof that I am indeed the father before entertaining the thought of supporting her.

It is more than suspicious timing given that the relationship had been causal or on/ off and that her visa is going to expire.

BrokenJetpack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485732#Comment_119485732

Agree re the suspicious timing. He told me she showed him a positive pregnancy test, a type or brand called "ClearBlue" which is apparently pretty accurate.

Dial Hard

Did she do the test then and there or did she show him a picture of a positive test? Cause they're very easily obtained. Even if she had a pre-taken positive test with her when she told him, again, that could be anyone's.

And even if she is definitely pregnant, he still doesn't know it's his.

I'm normally the last one to join an "It's a trap!" pile-on, but the timing really is *super* convenient. I wouldn't necessarily advise him to go accusing her of anything outright but he needs to be sensible about this.

Dial Hard

Also, tell your friend to use a condom in future. Even leaving pregnancy concerns aside, it's mental not to use a barrier method with someone you're not in a 100% committed relationship with.

Jequ0n

Under no circumstances should he acknowledge paternity at any stage prior to getting a paternity test. In the best case scenario she has to leave the country in February. Let her try to initiate the maintenance/ paternity process from Brazil.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484640#Comment_119484640

I don't think that is correct any longer: a child born here is not automatically a citizen.

Here's the cheap and cheerful link ( I'm sure there are better ones): https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Your "friend" also needs to research his obligations under Brazilian law, I suspect.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119486490#Comment_119486490

If the father is Irish then the child is Irish. In the absence of information to the contrary I assumed the father was Irish.

Pinoy adventure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484640#Comment_119484640

Not correct.

the child can stay as it’s an Irish citizen but the mother would have too sort her immigration status out.

it might be slightly easier as she is the parent of an Irish citizen but it’s not given automatically.

she could apply for a stamp 4 EU family visa.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119486543#Comment_119486543

Ruiz Zambrano v Office National De L’Emploi, Case C-34/09 established the derived rights of non EEA parents of Union citizen child to reside within the territory of the EU. Parents of such children can apply for stamp 4 residence permission

Pinoy adventure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487231#Comment_119487231

Ireland is the only country in the EU who is not part of the Schengen scheme so that does not apply here.

they could apply for stamp 4 EU family

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484640#Comment_119484640

Is that not the whole anchor baby job?

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487711#Comment_119487711

No, at least one parent needs to be Irish now.

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487712#Comment_119487712

There's guaranteed to be a grim industry at that racket.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119486141#Comment_119486141

Yes but he needs proof it's his lead.

Too much at stake here for everyone not to get the paternity test done.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487702#Comment_119487702

Schengen does not come into it. i quoted the case so kindly quote a source if you disagree with my post.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487733#Comment_119487733

About €1,100-1,500!

Jequ0n

So she is not pregnant. Tell your friend not to touch her with a barge pole. Sex should be off the cards now even if he does use a condom. The timing of all this (plus the fact that they had just ended their relationship) is too convenient to ignore.

Lucky escape

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487720#Comment_119487720

You know, I doubt it.

Its actually not too difficult to get working visas for Ireland if you have some skills and money.

Really it just takes time.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492318#Comment_119492318

Huh? Was a post deleted or something?

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119486445#Comment_119486445

That's a legalistic perspective but these are people who have been in an intimate relationship.

You can't get a paternity test until the baby is born afaik and I'm hoping the OPs friend wants to be a good father if he turns out to be the father so he'll need a good relationship with the mother.

I'm nowhere near a lawyer but I think the mother might have to return to Brazil if she can't get a working visa extension but she should be able to get a residency visa if her baby is an Irish citizen and return to Ireland after the child is born. The OPs friend needs to make financial preparations now if he wants to support the child.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492392#Comment_119492392

New thread

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058259440/two-positive-pregnancy-test-followed-by-two-negative

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492447#Comment_119492447

Ah.

Tbh, it's all getting even more scooby dubious at this point. She was home testing before she had missed a period?

BrokenJetpack

Yes according to the latest from my friend she's had two negative tests since Aug 16, one otc urine test in her doctor's and then a negative from a blood test. This was after two positive home tests on Aug 7 and 14.

I think their next step is to get an ultrasound at the 6 week stage which would be about a week from now.

BrokenJetpack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492412#Comment_119492412

Thanks, yes that's what he's wondering about i.e. in terms of housing she lives in an apartment share atm which won't be suitable after the child is born. They're not going to move in together so does he have to provide housing for her, also what financial maintenance / payments he would need to make etc.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492652#Comment_119492652

after reading the update about the pregnancy tests I think your friend can relax.

Jequ0n

Why would you get an ultra sound if she isn’t even pregnant?

dontmindme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492735#Comment_119492735

She's had contradictory test results but at the same time has missed her period(s)?

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492763#Comment_119492763

It's not actually at all clear from the timelines posted whether she actually has missed a period, though.

The whole thing seems very "off", tbh. Who's referring her for the ultrasound? The doctor who did two negative pregnancy tests???

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492475#Comment_119492475

It's very common for women to test now before a period is missed. You can test as early as six days after you believe conception might have occurred.

Those digital clearblue tests are very accurate - far more accurate than the tests commonly used in GP surgeries.

If they came up positive and the GPs tests negative, it's likely she may have had a very early miscarriage, (the pregnancy simply failed to develop) so don't assume she was lying about the positive tests. Pregnancy tests only come up positive if they detect HGC - the pregnancy hormone - and HGC only exists in the body when you are pregnant.

The ultrasound is probably to check for a foetal pole, or possible ectopic pregnancy, or molar pregnancy.

It happens all the time.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493456#Comment_119493456

I'm well aware that you can test before a missed period these days but the only women I know who do that are actively trying to conceive. Why a woman in an on-off relationship who's supposedly on the Pill would do it is beyond me, unless, again, she was deliberately trying to get pregnant.

I think the best thing the OP's friend can do at this point is wait for the ultrasound/for her to get her period (again, it's unclear to me which is due to happen first) and hope to god she's not actually pregnant. And for the love of god, zip (or at least suit) up his mickey.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493665#Comment_119493665

Contraception fails. Maybe she had a reason to believe it was a possibility this time around (illness, missed pill, or split condom). I wouldn't take it that she was deliberately plotting to get herself pregnant, because ultimately, even if she was pregnant, he has zero responsibility towards her, only towards the child.

The most she could do is make a once-off request via the courts for financial assistance towards the costs of the birth, and then child maintenance afterwards. That's it.

(eta) in-utero paternity testing can be carried out from six months pregnancy.

From the OPs other thread

Here's the timeline:

slept together about 14 / 15 July

positive home pregnancy test on Aug 7th followed by another positive one on Aug 14th

visit to the doctor on Aug 16th, negative urine test, negative result from blood test on Aug 18th

Doesn't look to me like she tested early.

If she was around the most fertile period of her cycle (day 14) when they had sex, (14/15 July) her period would have been due around the 28/29 July. Looks like she waited a few days to test (7th August) which would have made her approximately 3 weeks pregnant.

Sounds to me like the pregnancy failed to develop. I hope the ultrasound shows everything is okay with her, and your friend needs to rethink his own part in all this, and wrap it up if he doesn't want any future pregnancy scares with this, or any other girl.

inisfree0504

Many of the replies are pretty appalling and extremely ignorant re reproductive health!

OP asked for info on his legal responsibilities - not an examination into the truthfulness and character of this lady. They also did not ask how to avoid his responsibilities or pack this lady off to Brazil where she will have a harder time getting legal supports for their child.

Fair enough - raise the prospect of doing a paternity test - but the assumptions about this lady are really unfounded. With typical use, the pill is only 91% effective - which means the knee-jerk summation that this woman must have intentionally got pregnant are ridiculous (and also irrelevant to the question asked.) It's also relatively normal to test before a missed period. There are sometimes indicators before that might mean she wanted peace of mind.

They're just a troll. It's blatantly obvious.

y0ssar1an22

Across the board, there should be no obligations.

My body my choice and all that

Pissy Missy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492447#Comment_119492447

Thank fcuk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119498991#Comment_119498991

I assume you've had a vascetomy and use condoms as well so, just to be sure there is no indiscriminate spreading of your sperm where it might fertilise someone's egg?

And that is indeed your body, and your choice.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119498930#Comment_119498930

His legal responsibilities are precisely and totally dependent on whether he is the father. Her truthfulness and character are dependent on DNA testing, if she is even pregnant. Naïveté about truthfulness and character has to be set aside

The OPs question assumes responsibilities which many posters rationally point out may not exist.

It is sensible practical and realistic to be suspicious of such a convenient scenario. The assumptions of good faith are unwise.

Your own statistics of 91% effective make a nonsense of your subsequent claim that assumptions she intentionally got pregnant are nonsense.

The thread like all threads involving immigration needs to be approached cautiously. Doubly so when it brings into play ideologies of gender.

BrokenJetpack

Thanks for all the replies. The scan results came back and according to my friend there may have been a chemical pregnancy followed by a miscarriage.