Irish Times looking for Landlords to have their say

handlemaster

https://www.irishtimes.com/property/residential/2022/08/11/do-you-own-a-rental-property-share-your-experience-as-a-small-landlord/

WealthyB

The Landlords have responded in their droves

https://www.irishtimes.com/property/residential/2022/08/15/the-house-was-a-mess-and-the-bill-came-to-9000-it-broke-me-life-as-a-small-landlord/

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119474598#Comment_119474598

There are quite a few there. The landlords giving reduced rent need will always suffer.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119478442#Comment_119478442

i really miss the comments section in the IT. Think the paper is diminished without it. The Telegraph, Guardian and The Times all allow comments. Anyway the comments on this would have been fantastic, I’d say what was printed was just the tip of the iceberg. No doubt will all fall on deaf ears. Years demonising small landlords and patronising them with the ‘ Mom and Pop’ crap.

Small landlords giving their tenants notice only became a problem when the accommodation shortage kicked in, possibly triggered by the ban on bedsits. Not their decision but they’ve been made to pay. And still most small landlords continue to have good relationships with their tenants and this would continue into the future if the State would back off. As it stands, with the threat of not being able to get possession at all in the future, many are rightly bailing.

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119478673#Comment_119478673

It doesnt matter, landlords will always be hated because they have a class based position of authority over people.

Irish people dont want to rent, its against our cultural norms. It was the norm for most of the last century that anyone work could buy a house and everyone else got social housing. Renting is for new arrivals and students and temporary. Unless we either change the cultural perspective on renting or subsidise home ownership to a level that the average income can buy the average house we will never get out of housing crisis

somewhere45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119478673#Comment_119478673

Main reason for why I cancelled the subscription I had. The redesign sucked ( which included comments ).

But on topic we are just about to serve notice on our tenant. As soon as notice is served we are putting it on the market.

The last tenant before that was a utter nightmare and moaned about everything, calling all hours, would break chairs, doors etc etc. In the end she got a counsel house and we were delighted to see the back of her.

Too many scary potential scenarios could come into effect and its just not worth the risk of even more crazy anti-landlord laws being introduced anymore.

Never made a cent as the rent cap really messed us up badly ( our own fault for not paying attention and timing ).

Like other mentioned in the IT.

Accountants’ fees, RTB registration, repairs, exorbitant tax and regulations, no rights, management fees etc etc. Its time to get out. Never again.

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479038#Comment_119479038

Can I ask you a question for all landlords? Why should we care you are leaving the market? It will just mean the government will have to ideologically change direction and go back to mass public housing and massive subsidies on home ownership.

The problem with renting is eventually a life long tenant will become homeless, that is in retirement when they can no longer pay the rent. We just have no way for renting to be secure

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479038#Comment_119479038

Also if you never made a cent, is the house worth less or the same now as it was when you bought it?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479072#Comment_119479072

It's market value is irrelevant unless one actually sells it. Then CGT is applicable.

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479092#Comment_119479092

Its not though, a property is an investment

And its absurd and disgusting that we have moved our provision of the need of a roof over ones head to be provided by people who can afford to own more than one asset profiter by charging a premium to people let down by the states duty of care to house them and denied the chance of building their own equity for a lower monthly fee than rent by restricted lending rules

The landlord v tenant issue is an generational issue between asset rich boomers and a young generation locked out of the market. And it is as such creating a class and asset conflict in this country that will get much worse for all involved with the state doing what it did in the last century and providing decent housing in decent communities for the working person

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479065#Comment_119479065

By all means don't care.....+ enjoy how well it works out with the same class of cretins that made a complete balls of it at everytime of asking + institutional landlords....sure what could go further wrong?

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479120#Comment_119479120

I think its going to lead to a fundamentally different economic way of doing things in this country.

More and more people locked out of property living at home until mid 30s will mean more support for the populist left, an end to multinationals who create wealth inequality and a return to pre 1990s Ireland when people has less disposable income for brand clothes etc but could have their basic needs of a home in their communties etc met.

Either than or we keep down the road of vast inequality leading to a wider divide between rich and the rest and a damaged society

"pre 1990s Ireland when people has less disposable income for brand clothes etc but could have their basic needs of a home in their communties etc met."

Christ. Now I know you're trolling.

somewhere45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479072#Comment_119479072

Worth a little more but we lost a lot of money over the years ( rent did not cover mortgage + the fees mentioned above added up ). Never expected to make money on it the first 10-15 years. Then rent pressure zones came into effect just as the market turned and we could have charged fair market value.

Which would taken a lot of the pain away. Not all but most. Most forget that buy-to-let interest rates are a lot higher than normal rates.

Long story short. We did not do our homework ( own fault and took our eye of the ball with RPZs and missed the boat ) but never expected to be forced to not be able to set our own rent. ( lot more to the story I wont bore you with, but spent 5 years single-handed trying to get a functional management company setup due to legal matters and infighting between other apartment owners )

Nightmare from beginning to end.

And no you dont have to care about us but there are human stories behind each private landlord as well and some of those are horror stories.

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479156#Comment_119479156

A horror for you is not having made a large return on a second property. My horror is facing the rest of my life without ever being able to afford a secure home and retiring into homelessness, thats what a generation forced to rent due to a lack of social housing and restrictive lending laws are facing

Id be very happy to switch places

somewhere45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479169#Comment_119479169

Nah, the horror for me was going through what 17-18 years with 10 of those sitting up working to 2am most nights to make ends meet and try to get out of the mess we were in.

But I fully agree with you. Its ALL a clusterfuck and I doubt it will be solved within our lifetimes ( without knowing your age ).

Best option. Get out of Ireland. Quality of life are so much better elsewhere. We plan to. I wish you all the best.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479065#Comment_119479065

Without housing suppliers making an income, they don’t continue to invest. When they don’t invest there is less housing paid for and built. Builders need investors, to buy their units , to fuel and accelerate further production. Relying on first time buyers isn’t enough to fuel the building trade , they don’t have large enough buying power.

When there is less housing it’s more expensive to buy what’s available. Those who need more homes built (wannabe buyers), have skin in the game whether they realise it or not. It has to make sense for everyone involved in the market or it doesn’t work. Landlords and investors have to be able to make a living or they exit and the supply situation just gets worse and worse. Borne out every time I pick up a paper tbh. It is getting worse each year by demonising landlords and investors, so I don’t understand how people don’t get it yet. It’s so blindingly obvious, strangling the suppliers , strangles the supply.

Can I ask you a question? Did you want to move out of parents house straight into a 30 year mortgage? Did you want to have rental options available at any point in your life? Never studied out of your home town, worked anywhere other than your birthplace short term? Never wanted to move in with a boyfriend or girlfriend to see how you got along before making a long term commitment?

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479202#Comment_119479202

As a student in a different city I was happy to rent, though that should really be provided by the universities themselves. After graduating I was happy renting for maybe a year, by 25 I was actively ashamed of being a renter since that was the stage my parents and siblings had homes at and I was still in a house share. I moved back home recently and took on a second job, which Im taxed at near 50% on for the privilege. And when the savings done unless I keep this up for years and years, realistically Im 30 this year and life needs to actually begin asap so thats not an option, I will be forced to move away from Dublin

I really just dont understand why they wont take EU structural loans in the hundreds of billions like other nations do and we did for the road network, pay them back over 50 years and build social housing for every single worker who is forced to rent

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479254#Comment_119479254

I don't agree that universities should run housing too, and typically they don't , they outsource it. Their core business is education. But even if they did, that's just another private landlord anyway.

From your circumstances you've wanted or needed rental facilities for 8 to 10 years, but you don't care if none remains? You don't see how that's hypocritical?

The same cultural problem with social housing happens everywhere. When people don't own their own home, they treat it badly and the housing stock decays. You can look at the first nations reservations in north america, the communist block tenements in various countries and the existing social housing here. Take a walk through some of the social housing estates. People generally, by our nature will put their care and attention into what they own. They will instead maintain things of other value, like cars, horses or put money into high end designer clothes, but they place no value in something they can't sell or pass on to their families. It's up there with direct provision in wrong things to do, morally.

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479065#Comment_119479065

If you believe any government is going to build and subsidise houses for everyone who wants one you will be left severely disappointed.

Soviet style tower blocks won't even happen

whisky_galore

Any of these faceless investment firms buying up all round them being interviewed?

Absentee Landlords 2.0?

Mr Hindley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479107#Comment_119479107

So you seem to be saying that your first preference is for the state to basically house pretty much everyone who wants it (and the money for this would come from...?), and it's only because that has failed that we're forced to have (gasp, horror) a rental market..? You then complain about restricted lending rules, which are there specifically to stop prices skyrocketing and people getting into obscene debt - and which have actually been at least partly effective at doing so, when you look at other countries like NZ.

Look, there's no denying that the housing market here is a shitshow, but the sense of entitlement in your posts is off the charts.

magicbastarder

interesting feedback in this twitter thread. the comment in one of the articles 'i don't have much profit after mortgage and fees' made me laugh too - you have a property with a mortgage on it, and the rent is *more* than covering the mortgage. let me break out my violin...

https://twitter.com/SilkeHenry/status/1559139505323577344

growleaves

OP is just a link.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479519#Comment_119479519

God forbid people want to make a living by providing a service.

What is it you do to earn your crust?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479254#Comment_119479254

As a student in a different city I was happy to rent, though that should really be provided by the universities themselves.

It is not a universities responsibility to house it's students, nor do all of the students in a university want to live in campus accommodation.

After graduating I was happy renting for maybe a year, by 25 I was actively ashamed of being a renter since that was the stage my parents and siblings had homes at and I was still in a house share.

You being ashamed of renting is an issue solely on you.

I moved back home recently and took on a second job, which Im taxed at near 50% on for the privilege.

Your taxes contribute to society. As someone who appears to expect the state to provide housing to whoever wants it, I'm quite surprised that you are critical of being taxed!

And when the savings done unless I keep this up for years and years, realistically Im 30 this year and life needs to actually begin asap so thats not an option, I will be forced to move away from Dublin

I really just dont understand why they wont take EU structural loans in the hundreds of billions like other nations do and we did for the road network, pay them back over 50 years and build social housing for every single worker who is forced to rent

Im not sure if the ESF would incoude home building. Anyhow, people right across Europe rent regardless of income. Is your objection towards renting or you not having your own home?

I'd also object to social housing being provided to everyone who is "forced to rent". If this were to happen then you'll suddenly find that everyone can't afford a mortgage.

Based on your last thread on this, I suspect it is because you can't afford a mortgage on a property near Dublin and don't want to move far from Dublin where a mortgage would be more affordable.

In your last thread, you came across as quite entitled but also naive. I'm not seeing you having learnt much from it though as you still believe that you should be handed a property because you can't afford to buy one.

somewhere45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479519#Comment_119479519

So basically just the usual all landlords are evil and the old you are making money providing a service "Shame on you" crap.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479726#Comment_119479726

It's that anti landlord sentiment that's partly responsible for the crisis.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480008#Comment_119480008

The "crisis" is due to many factors such as poor planning policies which lead to urban sprawl, poor investment public transport infrastructure, a dominance of demi-D housing and so on, a lack of investment in social housing coupled with the sale of much of the public housing stock.

It will take a long term plan that is agreed with all or most political parties. This won't happen because our politicians want to be in various photo shoots. The populist mantra of housing for all, etc which is more populist statement than a thought-out policy is being picked up by those desperate for their own home has become par for the course.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479519#Comment_119479519

Interesting, a journalism lecturer. Maybe that explains a few things about how much of the media seems to talk about landlords.

Twitter taking its usual line that all landlords are evil greedy b*stards, just waiting behind the door to evict the tenants.

In all my many years renting (and iv said here a few times) most of my LL were fairly ordinary.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119479619#Comment_119479619

"Earning a crust"

Step 1: Go to Bank

Step 2: Fill out forms and get access to other people's money

Step 3: Figure out how to bid on a house and buy it using that money borrowed from other people.

Step 4: Get tenants in. Expect said tenants to have zero rights and to also be obligated to pay you enough so that you have "profit" left over after paying all your income tax and loan repayments.

Step 5: Kick tenants out. Own house which was paid for by tenants.

Step 6: Sell house and get original purchase tax free.

Step 7: Whinge about having to pay capital gains tax on the capital gains.

Do you feel entitled to that "crust" because you just feel special and exceptional, or do you think that steps 1-3 need a unique skillset that only you can provide?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480060#Comment_119480060

I agree.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119478673#Comment_119478673

I got a lot of incoherent pushback on another thread where I crticised the IT for dropping its comments section. If the IT had curated those comments like the British media (the FT is the best example), they would have had a ready-made set of landlords' tales.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058247654/irish-times-website-no-longer-allowing-comments

More generally, comments would give the IT a clear picture of what their subscribers think about their editorial line which always favours more regulation and higher taxes (was that the real reason they blocked the comments?). This goes to your second point - if there was a functioning rental market, a notice to quit would not be a crisis i.e. a suitable alternative would be available to a good tenant at a similar rent. Did any pundit make this elementary point in the recent flood of media commentary?

Don't confuse this with a separate point that rents are too damned high. I agree, but that's largely a function of interest rates and QE, plus the Government taking half the rent. Would it change anything if small landlords took only half the rent but asked the tenant to write a a cheque to Revenue for the other half? The economics would be the same but the politics might be dramatically different.

Flinty997

The govt will continue to do nothing and this crisis will go on forever.

If people don't care there isn't enough landlords they also don't care there aren't enough rentals. There are different sides of the same coin.

Even with social and public housing the govt is a landlord. That landlord leaving partly caused this crisis. Because there was nothing to fill that capacity gap. The private rental isn't going to ever fill it. Because it runs at a loss. Even with govt propping it up the return on investment is far lower than the high end of the market. Which is why the investment and REITs primarily focus on the top end of the market.

Tbh the rental market has got exactly what it asked for. More protections for tenants only, less small landlords, large investment landlords. The govt has responded to that and delivered it.

Seth Brundle

Do you feel entitled to that "crust" because you just feel special and exceptional, or do you think that steps 1-3 need a unique skillset that only you can provide?

To be fair, the same question could be put to taxi drivers and various other jobs. Do you consider that taxi drivers only have a car because it was paid for by those who used the service? Should taxi drivers be entitled to a "crust" or "profit" after paying income tax and loan repayments?

You are conveniently ignoring that any property needs to be maintained. If it is not maintained then one could safely assume that any sale price would be affected.

(For the record, I'm not a landlord)

Seth Brundle

The govt will continue to do nothing and this crisis will go on forever.

To be fair, the government is not doing nothing. They continue to make various reactionary changes in law which provide more rights to tenants. This shift in the balance has made it less desirable for an individual to become or stay as a landlord.

DubCount

Not again. Not another thread that goes down the same well walked path.

"If your property is damaged, that just a risk of being in business"

"You cant increase rents, its a social responsibility not a business"

"Lets do without landlords altogether - have the government buy up all the property and give it to the poor - the rich people can pay for it".

"Lets stop landlords leaving the market altogether"

"The market economy doesnt work - we need a new way of doing things (no new way ever suggested)"

Landlords are leaving because the current framework is unfair and unworkable. It is no great loss for the landlords, they just invest their money elsewhere. Its tenants and want-to-be tenants that suffer. The system is broken and nobody is going to fix it. The great landlord exodus will continue and if you want to believe SF and co will make it all better - go for it. However, if you want a new way of doing things, at least let it be consistent and be honest about where the magic money tree comes from.

Flinty997

The landlords having their say just haven't realized no one wants them investing in the rental market. They should invest in some thing else. Leave the rental market to fund itself. How they do that will be interesting to see.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480247#Comment_119480247

Do nothing to fix the problem. They are just chasing votes by knee jerk reactions to populist pressure. They continue to court investment to drive the economy.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480120#Comment_119480120

Um what?

Selling any service, maintaining any product, risking your own capital, doing legal work, tax work, supporting the customer, running a business. Nothing special or unique about it, it's the same as any other business.

Wasn't it that renting out property was a business and it only failed when not treated as such. Or is it not that again? I can't keep up with the circles people go in around here to try to justify that this service is somehow different to everything else on earth and should be done for free or at a loss.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480232#Comment_119480232

Well one thing that you might want to consider the likely difference in value in 2042 between 10 taxi cars bought for 30k each today, and one house bought as a passive investment for 300k today.

"Investing" in property the way most on here appear to do it is a passive, wholly rent-seeking, activity.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480254#Comment_119480254

Rental market would fund itself without property owners willing to let the units out for rent? How would that work exactly, I'm intrigued.

This is like saying all butchers should leave the market and the meat will just appear on your plate.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480448#Comment_119480448

A passive investment has zero tenants.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480445#Comment_119480445

If you are struggling to change a few lightbulbs here and there, then maybe it might not be the best "business" for you to be in.

I, like most people, have some family members who were accidental landlords. None of them appear to struggle to anything like the extent that you appear to be struggling to cope. They just have houses and apartments with long term tenants who take care of the place themselves and pay them their rent. I don't think they describe it as "doing legal work". Are you qualified to "do legal work?"

The Irish Times pice shows that there are a lot of landlords in the market moaning about the tax they pay and haven't a clue what they're talking about. Rates of 51%, 52% and 53% all mentioned and then 1 genius who said his RTB fee is not an allowable expense when it most definitely is.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480448#Comment_119480448

No.

You can buy an investment property and not rent it. You might even buy property simply to enjoy it..

Indeed that's the fuss about vacant properties.

Someone's ability to own property isn't the cause of the govt failure to provide housing. But it's a good distraction to take the attention of the govt failures.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480466#Comment_119480466

Well a general principle in a free market would be that if you are relatively inefficient at a particular task, then you cannot demand the market compensate you for your inefficiency.

For example, if it somehow takes you 40 hours a week to "manage" having one house with a tenant, you cannot demand a full time wage from that if most people can do it with 10 hours effort a year.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480461#Comment_119480461

My comment was meant to be sarcastic and ironic.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480480#Comment_119480480

Ah, you are confused over the term "rent-seeking".

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480120#Comment_119480120

Wow. I didn't know it was that easy.

I'm off to the bank for some cash. Il get enough to buy a house in every county.

I don't think that's how it works Donald

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119480448#Comment_119480448

Well one thing that you might want to consider the likely difference in value in 2042 between 10 taxi cars bought for 30k each today, and one house bought as a passive investment for 300k today.

Are you saying that the value of property can never go down?

Can a taxi driver allow for depreciation in his returns? When a taxi driver sells their car, is CGT applied?

Either way, it doesn't matter as your original point was that a landlord should not feel entitled to some form of annual return on their investment which is nonsense.