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Bull pups...Yet again...

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  • 10-08-2022 2:05pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 15,022 ✭✭✭✭


    Was having a look at this restricted firearms and ammo order 2008,and something just struck me...There is no mention of Bullpup SHOTGUNS being restricted! firearms! All it mentions in the act and this order are rifles... Did we just get a lucky break?🤯

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/si/21/made/en/print

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,022 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Magazine capacity depending of course.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    You are indeed correct! 😁


    Provided you don't have anything else that would make it restricted(mag capacity, detached, folding or telescopic stock, pistol grip, <24 inch barrel) then it would be non restricted!


    On a similar but related note, if a bullpup shotgun had a rifled barrel then would it be a rifle or a shotgun under the act 🤨

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Wouldn't that in effect mean that your shotgun is licensed as a restricted firearm in any event? As AFAIK slugs are restricted, and rifling offers no other benefit other than Slug use for a shotgun?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Of course if you wanted to shoot slugs then it would be restricted, but leaving slugs themselves aside for the moment.


    IE, you buy a bullpup shotgun in a non restricted format, with a rifled barrel and a spare smoothbore barrel(several Turkish shotguns are sold with this option as rifles are heavily regulated over there).

    Would that shotgun with a rifled barrel be a shotgun, or a rifle, legally speaking?


    Obviously as soon as you wanted to purchase slugs you would need a restricted licence to purchase them and use them in a restricted firearm, but the query here being whether a rifled barrel in a shotgun would, in legal effect, turn that shotgun into a rifle in the eyes of the law, or would it remain as a shotgun regardless of the barrel's rifled/smooth state.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Fair point, I hadn't considered the interchangeable barrel aspect.

    Interesting quandary.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,022 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    I'd say that would make them a restricted rifle,as then you have a calibre above the magical 308 safe calibre, has a rifled barrel and you need slug ammo.For more fun n games register it as a combination gun! A 3-shot 12 GA with a restricted rifle barrel.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Not sure how you could get a bullpup shotgun without a pistol grip, thus making it restricted, unless you get a thumb hole stock.

    RE rifled shotgun - same restrictions as a rifle and hence restricted on bore size.

    single-shot or repeating rifled centre-fire firearms of a calibre not exceeding 7.62 millimetres (.308 inch) and whose overall length is greater than 90 centimetres,

    One exemption would be 9mm flobert, being a rimfire cartridge.

    Another thing I think would be worth discussing is the difference between a shotgun and a smoothbore firearm. Shotguns having certain restrictions, mentioned above, but "air-operated rifled or smoothbore firearms", don't have any mentioned other than "assault rifle or bullpup rifle".



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Ah, but that only refers to single shot or repeating(manually operated) rifled firearms, not semiautos. 😉

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,022 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Not sure how you could get a bullpup shotgun without a pistol grip, thus making it restricted, unless you get a thumb hole stock.

    Kel Tec heard you,and I'm sure they will make a CA[and Irish] compliant Bullpup shotgun in the near future too.


    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,022 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Is there any definition of what actually a thumbhole stock is in the legislation?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Peppa Cig


    Very “Tactikool”.

    on that note what is the most “Tactikool” legal option current for 12G?



  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Post edited by Munsterlad102 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,342 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    yup. That’s the unrestricted list. SAutos not being listed it not a help



  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Of course not, but neither is there a definition of a pistol grip.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Well all SACF, bar shotguns, are restricted, so it comes back to whether a rifle is defined as having rifling, or not.

    And lacking a specific definition of shotgun or rifle, I'd err on the side of it remaining being a shotgun.

    In most countries(in particular the EU) a shotgun is only ever a shotgun and similarly a rifle is a rifle, and neither can become the other simply by interchanging a rifled shotgun barrel with a smoothbore one.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,022 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    If its restricted. You can hang, bolt-on or off,and have whatever type of mag capacity up to 10 rounds on it And PROBABLY have a shorter than 24 ins barrel on one,so long as it keeps the OAL of 60 cms as per the directive. As there are still some Winchester 1897 RIC "Trench Brooms" with 16 in barrels out there in collections.

    Unrestricted. You cant hang any unconventional stock on it,[bar possibly a thumbhole stock],are stuck with 3 shots and no slugs.


    Of course not, but neither is there a definition of a pistol grip.

    Exactly!! so you could get a thumbhole stock that is literally a bit of the same material joining the butt to the pistol grip that is unbroken and originally made by the manufacturer to those specs[IE Remington Turkey shotgun or a Choate "Dragunov" type stock] and be good to go here. It would need legislative change or a court case to define it properly. This prominent pistol grip is so vague it could also include custom wood stocks for O/U DTL/Trap guns.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Well all SACF, bar shotguns, are restricted, so it comes back to whether a rifle is defined as having rifling, or not.

    Agreed.

    And lacking a specific definition of shotgun or rifle, I'd err on the side of it remaining being a shotgun.

    This is one of the flaws of the 2008 act, it mentions rifles, shotguns, rifled and smoothbore firearms. I'd be of the opinion that a shotgun with a rifled barrel is a restricted firearm because rifles aren't mentioned in what is restricted, rather "rifled centre-fire firearms" are what they discuss. That being said, certain types of shotguns are restricted as we all know, but all smoothbore firearms are non restricted. So that begs the question, what is the difference between smoothbore firearms and shotguns? Potential work around for slugs becoming non restricted and a higher capacity.

    In most countries(in particular the EU) a shotgun is only ever a shotgun and similarly a rifle is a rifle, and neither can become the other simply by interchanging a rifled shotgun barrel with a smoothbore one.

    It's not necessarily a case of a shotgun becoming a rifle, rather it's a case of a shotgun becoming a restricted firearm or not. If you have a rifled shotgun, or swap the smooth bore barrel for a rifled one, that's now a "rifled centre-fire firearm" and that's a restricted firearm because of bore size. It doesn't change from a shotgun to a rifle, it changes from non restricted to restricted. And of course if you increase magazine capacity or swap the barrel for one less than 24 inches, you now have a restricted firearm. It's the exact same principle. So whether or not the firearm is a shotgun or rifle isn't relevant, it's whether you have a non restricted configuration or a restricted configuration that matters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Exactly!! so you could get a thumbhole stock that is literally a bit of the same material joining the butt to the pistol grip that is unbroken and originally made by the manufacturer to those specs[IE Remington Turkey shotgun or a Choate "Dragunov" type stock] and be good to go here. It would need legislative change or a court case to define it properly. This prominent pistol grip is so vague it could also include custom wood stocks for O/U DTL/Trap guns.

    100% agree, it was the same in New Zealand prior to their CF SA ban. Pistol grips on CF SA rifles made them MSSA (military style semi automatics) rather than category A firearms, so a fixed bar from the bottom of the grip to the stock made them compliant. But then again, we don't have any such guidance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,342 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Yesterday I agreed with you as I was think more about all SA rifles. But I went back are doubled checked the exact wording and I’ve changed my mind.

    I'd be of the opinion that a shotgun with a rifled barrel is a restricted firearm because rifles aren't mentioned in what is restricted, rather "rifled centre-fire firearms" are what they discuss

    "rifled centre-fire firearm" and that's a restricted firearm because of bore size

    I understand where you are coming from. But I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The restricted SI doesn’t list any restricted firearms. Not a single one, it only lists unrestricted firearms. In order to be unrestricted a firearm only needs to meet one of the definitions in 2(a)-(e).

    And you are correct that a rifled shotgun is a rifled CF firearm that fails to meet 2(c)i that you quoted. However it does meet 2b:


    (b) shotguns manufactured, adapted or modified so as to render them incapable of containing more than 3 cartridges, but not to shotguns…etc

    If a rifle shotgun holds 3 or less rounds (and no pistol grip, folding stock obv.) it meets the criteria of 2b and is therefore unrestricted. There is no requirement to meet more that one subsection. If the intention was to exclude rifled shotguns, then they would have been listed under 2b as exceptions along with pistol grip and the like.

    Post edited by Mellor on


  • Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    What is it lately?, with people dropping or failing to use the word NOT

    "The restricted SI does list any restricted firearms. Not a single one"

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    I see where you're coming from and this issue ultimately boils down to what is the difference between a rifle and a shotgun in the legislation? An easy enough difference to tell us, but naturally guidance is non existent. Ultimately it's a little redundant to get a rifled shotgun because slugs are restricted, but that's besides the point.

    If the intention was to exclude rifled shotguns

    I very much doubt that anyone in the government could tell the difference between a rifled shotgun and a rifle, let alone know that rifled shotguns exist.

    If a rifle shotgun holds 3 or less rounds (and no pistol grip, folding stock obv.) it meets the criteria of 2b and is therefore unrestricted

    Again, it boils down to what is a shotgun, and what separates it from other firearms?



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,342 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I see where you're coming from and this issue ultimately boils down to what is the difference between a rifle and a shotgun in the legislation?

    I don’t believe either is defined is the legislation. Both being grouped under the “long arm” definition.

    So the application of 2b falls down common terms. A shotgun with a rifled barrel, is by any reasonable interpretation a shotgun. Therefore unrestricted.

    Ultimately it's a little redundant to get a rifled shotgun because slugs are restricted, but that's besides the point.

    Agreed.

    Mainly academic in terms of bullpup shotguns being ok or not. Limited models exist, many would foul another law (features, length, etc)



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,022 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Anyway,just to drag this back to the original point...would any of youse get a BP shotgun? Restricted or not?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Restricted, yes.

    Non, maybe, it'd heavily depend on the gun itself rather than it's layout.


    Now a Black Powder(muzzleloader) that I could shoot, hell yes :-D

    I'd happily fill in the form tomorrow if I could get a Baker rifle and the components to feed it! 😁

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Why look for loopholes/is it/isn't it restricted etc. when it's actually quite easy to get a restricted shotgun licence.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    From my own perspective it's more of a thought exercise, but agree, restricteds in general are not difficult to get provided you fulfill the requirements(and depending on district whims obviously).

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,022 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    I'd certainly consider one if it was a left hand or downward-eject version.Otherwise, they are poison for us Lefties.Certainly has an advantage on a tree stand or high seat hunting,or for brush and driven game hunting.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Fair point, a Kel-tec RDB or similar would be ideal.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,342 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Kel-tec KSG is essentially a shotgun version of RDB. Downward ejecting, ambidextrous, twin tubes seems useful.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,022 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    You'd have to block the mags on both sides by one to comply with the EU/Irl mag capacity of 10 shots,and possibly get aa 4in muzzle break on it to bring it up to 24 ins.

    Be an interesting Fudd reaction if you pitch up on a DTL line with one.🤣

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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