Do you support the views put forward by Sabina Higgins that Ukraine and Russia must negotiate

pjcb

will negotiate

xxxxxxl

I assume she would have negotiated with the British when they invaded ? Or after they put the rising down ? 🤔

Not anti British btw making a point.

As another poster has said, its a bit like suggesting the pioneers of the war of Independence, stood down to prevent further bloodshed.

Ironically enough, if Michael Collins had said "Ah sure, we can never beat the British, lets just give up and let them rule us to prevent more deaths", Sabina wouldn't be living in the house she is iving in right now.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414009#Comment_119414009

I think the problem is where they live tbh. Kinda changes your thinking someway not for the better either. I wager she would not be suggesting Castro should have negotiated with the USA. 🤔 The seem to like the old communists like.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414010#Comment_119414010

Funnily enough, a friend of mine knows Sabina personally. When Michael D got elected she(my friend said), Sabina will lose the run of herself.

So, Im not surprised she did this, I'm surprised it took this long.

Danzy

She is taking a position that machine gunning the natives till they agree to bend the knee still works.

Strumms

To negotiate is to talk to find an agreed settlement to a problem between two parties.

there is no problem between the Ukraine and Russia..the problem IS 100% Russia.. they are the aggressor, invader, killer, illegal and violent, malevolent, psycho nation.

you can’t negotiate with that. Nor should you expect to need to ffs.

her comment just proves that she hasn’t the intellect, judgement or solemnities to be involving herself in world politics… she certainly hasn’t the mandate…to be publishing her thoughts on state websites…or elsewhere…

we have an elected government, she’d do well to remember that. This is a massive black mark for the presidency of her husband..

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414022#Comment_119414022

This is spinning the contents of the letter Strumms.

She was responding to an editorial that spoke of 'the war escalating to a standstill' and bemoaned the fact that a ceasefire and negotiations was not given encouragement

There are plenty of people who will rub their hands with glee at the prospect of a protracted stalemate. costing many lives needlessly but it is entirely reasonable to seek a peaceful outcome.

It shouldn't have appeared on the website and the Aras were correct to take it down.

EOQRTL

I agree with her 100% and am disappointed it was taken down. Preventing bloodshed is paramount.

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414190#Comment_119414190

In that case, "give me all your money and your house or I'll beat you bloody".

My take was that Sabrina wants Ukraine to just give up and let Russia have its way, rather than do something "stupid" lie try to defend themselves. She appears to be channelling her inner Claire Daly

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414181#Comment_119414181

No, it’s an accurate summary of content and intent.

responding ? She is still communicating on state headed paper. A protracted violent and aggressive invasion of this magnitude and scale isn’t going to be solved or influenced by Sabina writing that letter… it’s simply an exercise on behalf of an individual with too much time on their hands and fancied by proxy of who they married to… believing they have some sort of influence or mandate to get active and influential on behalf of Ireland and its citizens on the world political sphere. Awful judgement, egotistical arrogance of the highest degree…

we have an elected government, Taoiseach, department of foreign affairs, diplomats etc…all the letter does is seek to undermine them.

what we don’t require is the presidents wife, off her own bat, going rogue, choosing to represent this country by espousing through official communication, how a dangerous, deadly and devastating situation should be solved.

In addition… Her experience and expertise is not in international affairs…she is / was an actress and I think worked in the civil service for a while…

now she’s just acting the maggot and should be instructed to cease and desist.

rogber

I suspect the letter was written for the right reasons i.e. because it pains her to see the suffering and she sees only more suffering as the war settles into a likely stalemate, rather than because she's a secret Putin fan. I had some similar views when the war broke out, but which I have since changed having seen, one, the utter brutality of Russia's conduct, and two how they can't be trusted to stick to any agreements made through negotiation, having clearly stated that their aim is to overthrow the government and make Ukraine subject to Russian rule. To have witnessed that and then advocate negotiation/capitulation is pretty shocking to me. However, as a private citizen she's entitled to her views. The problem is the way they were made public, as if the unofficially represent the position of the country's president.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414181#Comment_119414181

There are plenty of people who will rub their hands with glee at the prospect of a protracted stalemate. costing many lives needlessly but it is entirely reasonable to seek a peaceful outcome.

Who are these people and can you point them out to us with actual quotes stating that is what they want.... or are you making **** up again?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414913#Comment_119414913

Correction, it is you accurately describing your interpretation or spin of what she said.

I.E. it's your opinion, I gave mine.

She was responding to an editorial that spoke of 'the war escalating to a standstill' and bemoaned the fact that a ceasefire and negotiations was not given encouragement

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414990#Comment_119414990

You ignored/handwaved away a direct quote on the other thread. Not wasting my time again.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415050#Comment_119415050

What thread was this?

Link it, please.

Otherwise you are making stuff up again and running away from your own words, which wouldn't be the first time.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415047#Comment_119415047

Did you say she was 'Bang on', yet also disagreed with her?

Usually, people don't agree and disagree with someone at the very same time. Its awfully confusing :) ;)

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414190#Comment_119414190

No it's not. Trails of Russian blood from retreating troops on the way back to the border is what's paramount.

Edgelords are now converting themselves into peaceniks as they see Russian positions getting f*cked-up and Ukrainians on the ascendency.

We see you.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414190#Comment_119414190

That's tantamount to giving the bully your lunch in case he hits you

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415075#Comment_119415075

Read the post properly.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415090#Comment_119415090

Except the IT piece she was responding to wasn't saying that. It was talking about the war coming to a standstill/stalemate...in which case she implored a ceasefire and negotiations.

Don't let the truth get in the way whatever you do. 🙄

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415107#Comment_119415107

And I was responding to a poster who said preventing bloodshed is paramount, not the content of Sabina Higgins' missive. Do keep up.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415102#Comment_119415102

I did and that is what you said.

She was "Bang on" in he views.

Odd for an Irish Republican to be so soft and appease an Imperial power.

indioblack

Either there will be outright defeat for one side or some kind of negotiated settlement, probably the latter.

It's not a question of "must negotiate" but under what circumstances could they negotiate.

It's unlikely there would be a desire at this time to negotiate realistically.

Does anybody think that the Russians would negotiate in good faith?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415123#Comment_119415123

Wrong...I said she was 'bang on' about one of the things she said.

Must you Mark? Such a waste of everyone's time.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415154#Comment_119415154

So you agreed with her.

Grand, glad that is sorted.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415158#Comment_119415158

On one of the things she said = yes.

Why are you wasting more time trying to get a pathetic win?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415175#Comment_119415175

Just trying to establish your POV as you seem to change it on a daily/hourly basis.

Anyway, it seems the polls disagree with her letter. In a minority again Francie.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415179#Comment_119415179

No YOU CHANGED it Mark to me agreeing with the entire letter. That is on YOU.

Laughable posting...what did it achieve for you only to make you look like a cheap reactionary bluffer?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415184#Comment_119415184

You agreed with her Francie. You said she was 'Bang on' in her views. Note views as in plural

It's okay to agree with her, its a free country (unlike poor Ukraine at the moment) but expect to be taken to task over it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415201#Comment_119415201

Why did deeper Mark? Why oh why? What I said in full. It related to one point she made about our own history and the GFA which I seen happen in 'my lifetime'.

Now go away. I won't be allowing you embarass yourself more.

In my lifetime war/conflict was sorted out, not by war/conflict, but by negotiation. She is bang on IMO.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415135#Comment_119415135

russians don't know what good faith is. That's why they need to be beaten on the battlefield.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415224#Comment_119415224

Sabina is 81 years old, which means she was born in 1940.

In 1945 Germany and Japan unconditionally surrendered to Allied forces. There was to be NO negotiations or treaty with the Third Reich or Imperial Japan. Therefore she and you are wrong about her 'lifetime'

Sometimes one cannot negotiate with these regimes. Do you think the Allies should have opened negotiations with Hitler and if so when and how?

Regardless, you agreed with her point of view in relation to Ukraine. There was some mad back peddling done my Micky D today on this.

https://twitter.com/Jennifer_Bray/status/1554073275554201601

And of yet, no explanation on her letter as a mere private citizen ended up on the president's website. I'd love to get my letters up on that Website, wouldn't you Francie? ;)

joseywhales

It's entirely up to Ukraine if and when they want to negotiate, it's not my place or hers to suggest when that should be.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415341#Comment_119415341

Fook me...did you see where I said 'my lifetime'?

In my lifetime and my experience of the GFA she is bang on about ceasefires and negotiations.

And did you see where she didn't reference WW2 at all?

Have you actually read the letter? I suspect now you haven't.

Cluedo Monopoly

I would like to see peace. There are no winners out of this awful war. The poorest nations will also suffer through famine.

Ten of Swords

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415050#Comment_119415050

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415071#Comment_119415071

Mod - More baggage from other threads. Smh

@markodaly @FrancieBrady you are both banned from this thread

John Doe1

Message to Russia: Cease fire and take over Donetsk/Luhansk, wait for 4/5 years for everyone to forget and try again in Estonia/Latvia. Rinse and Repeat.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415391#Comment_119415391

We all would.

Russia knows this. But don’t care one iota.

That’s the simple truth.

Manach

I read military history as part of a course. In the theorical aspects of conflict, war is in essence a continuation of politics. A vast majority of historical conflicts have been settled with negoiations where the military realities dicate the settlement, even if it means that the the wrong side (Russia beyond a doubt) does win in the short term. 

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415949#Comment_119415949

What's your take on the end game and how long will it take?

Fann Linn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414004#Comment_119414004

The freedom to achieve freedom....

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415994#Comment_119415994

Problem is if one side doesn't want to talk or will only do so in bad faith. Then pressure for negotiations is only undermining the innocent party. One thing about all those previous 'fruitless' rounds of talks though is that the Ukranians know all the ground and will twig very quickly if and when the Russians are genuinely up for a deal.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416006#Comment_119416006

I’ve no idea to be honest.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416234#Comment_119416234

Yeah fair enough. I have a feeling we'll still be talking about it this time next year.

NickNickleby

I think the problem is, can Ukraine eventually defeat the Russians? Because if they can't, every Ukrainian death is truly a waste of a life. But if you turn it round, I suspect that the Russians (well, those in charge) will believe they can win a war of attrition. But I think the Russians are after the breadbasket part of Ukraine, so will be more motivated to win. Also, isn't there an advantage to Russia getting a better direct route to the Black Sea and control of Black Sea ports, so another motivation to win.

So, given all that, is a negotiated settlement the ultimate outcome anyway? It might be, in which case the sooner the better.

I therefore see no problem with the letter. Its simply aspirational. But it shouldn't have appeared on the official website. I wont be surprised to see some low level official thrown on their sword for that.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416464#Comment_119416464

I don't know (if they can win). If they don't get enough support (both military, and non military) they won't, that is certain I fear.

One problem with idea of a negotiated peace "sooner the better" leaving the situation as it stands now is it seems naive to think the violence and terror just stops in occupied parts of Ukraine once the war ends with a ceasefire.

The statements of Putin, the Russian internal propaganda about the war, (and if you doubt both of these) the very brutal way the Russians have waged the war, and Russian military actions in the areas they have occupied suggest otherwise.

So while there might be "peace", it may be very ugly and there could be alot of repression + violence continuing in areas Russia has control over. That must be a consideration & the larger this area is + the more people caught in it the worse that problem is.

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416552#Comment_119416552

Totally agree with what you say fly_ . It cannot be denied that the Russian incursion is brutal in its intent and execution, and in no way am I suggesting otherwise. But I am suggesting that, in the absence of any likelihood of a Ukrainian victory, an immediate halt to hostilities should be the aim. The problem is then enforcing this peace. I think we all know what that would look like. So either its a flawed peace or continued bloodbath with no end in sight, other than perhaps complete destruction of Ukraine - or those parts the Russians don't want/need.

Or... direct boots-on-the-ground, planes-in-the-sky, military intervention by 'the west'. Total expulsion of the Russians is probably possible, and indeed its the only way to prevent the flawed peace. Peace through victory. But if we're going THAT route, then its unlikely that all the action will be confined to within Ukraine's borders. I'm pretty sure that's quite an understatement. Can't see anyone making that call.

xxxxxxl

The only way I see peace being kepts is to create another NK style border zone. UN peacekeepers on our side so they can't Say but NATO.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414190#Comment_119414190

We would all like to see bloodshed prevented but how does negotiating with the Russians achieve that? Negotiation has already been tried multiple times and Russia wasted no time in breaking any agreements that came out of that.