RFU bans transgender players from competing in women's game.

RFU bans transgender players from women's game (rte.ie)

A group with a pair at long last!

Allinall

Proper order.

Clegg

Going to go against the rather disturbing tone set by this thread. This is a shameful day for sport. Much like the ongoing campaign against Caster Semenya damages athletics.

There has been an utterly dreadful campaign of bigotry waged against trans women by high profile celebrities and media publications. It seems like discrimination is ok when the loudest voices shout about it.

StevenToast

Common sense prevails.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404873#Comment_119404873

Eh?

Having someone with a man's body tackling/mauling/scrummaging women in rugby could result in death!

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404873#Comment_119404873

Yeah, this is a ludicrous moral panic based on superstition, prejudice and fragility. It will look positively medieval when reflected on in the future. It also has zero self awareness about the game of rugby where people love to see a Lomu/Skelton sized elephant run through a tiny scrum half and send them tumbling. There will be an embarrassing climb down eventually.

Fann Linn

Good.

Yoshimi79

Makes sense with physicality advantage

Augme

Trangender players whose sex recorded at birth is female may still play in the male category if they provide written consent and a risk assessment is carried

This seems like a very strange position to take given their stance on the issue. I'd love to know their rational for needs to carry out a risk assessment given they have already clearly stated their position.

mondeoman72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404873#Comment_119404873

Will fix that for you.

There has been an utterly dreadful campaign of bigotry waged against fellas claiming to be women by high profile celebrities blah blah blah. Absolutely great that common sense prevails and PC crap gets thrown out

touts

Grabs the popcorn.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404873#Comment_119404873

Despite the prevalence of a generally Neanderthal tone to this thread. Which I can’t agree with. I’d have to disagree with your point. I believe that this is a very nuanced subject but ultimately the physiological advantage of being born male can’t be ignored. To do so would be dangerous. Particularly in sports like rugby where contact is so much part of the game.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404973#Comment_119404973

Does it? Their thinking surely is that it's dangerous or at least unfair for women to play against people who were male for a good part of their lives.

Female to male transsexuals would surely be up against it competing with men, but they can't be allowed to stay competing with women if they're taking hormones that would normally be on the banned list.

For better or worse, having separate male and female categories for sports where strength comes into it is the best and fairest thing you can have.

mondeoman72

You cannot be putting a big lump of a fella who now claims to be female, in a scrum with women. It is unfair, and downright dangerous.

Itxa

I think anyone who was thought to be a girl at birth and goes through girls schools from a young age due to that perception should be allowed to compete if found out to be subsequently mixed or slightly male.

Men undergoing sex change and hormone replacement should not not be allowed due to reasons of testosterone being in their body for longer periods. Thinking you’re a woman or man with subsequent sex change does not make you one.

I think the vilification and general lack of empathy to all concerned in these situations is a worry in modern society. There should be a set of rules and any genuine case of mis- assignment at birth should be looked at equitably.

Stewball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404873#Comment_119404873

Wasn't Semenya assigned female at birth, so if she was a rugby player there would be no issue with her playing women's rugby under these rules?

I'm not fully up to speed on this debate, so I may be wrong.

CatFromHue

Some light reading on this topic

"the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed"

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage | SpringerLink

Biological sex is the biggest defining feature when it comes to sporting performance. I think most other sports will go this way too.

Also that's not a great headline by RTE. Trans people aren't banned from playing, it's just you have to be female at birth to compete in the women's category.

RichieRich_89

Semenya is a different case entirely. She's not transgender; she's intersex.

Unsurprisingly - a bunch of folks I've never seen on this forum charge in with delight when a trans issue is raised on the forum. Internet is full to the brim of absolute saddo's.

No man is going to jump ship from his gender solely to play in women's rugby to grope women or destroy teams and in the very rare occasion that something like this was at risk of happening that person would be immediately jettisoned from the game before their notions bore reality.

If this was Ireland - this would much more likely impact someone who is genuinely living their life as a women, is not a physical threat to other women and wants to play for the Clontarf 4ths. This person would likely meet with medical criteria as regards to any physical advantage and like other trans women in sports they would be easily outperformed by CIS women. If the Clontarf 4ths had an issue with it then that's for them to decide - but I'd bet such a person joining would probably be joining as a friend of someone on the team. Rugby is going to be one of those sports where the innate physical advantage of someone born male is going to shine through and as such it's a situation which should be handled with caution. I still think it's something which should be open to a case by case debate (given it's going to be highly irregular) rather than a blanket ban.

The RFU is playing it safe here given the right wing media crusade against the trans community over there. The rags are pushing prejudice, misinformation and phobia on the daily as it's a hardline topic for supporters of the current UK Government, a Government acting in an incredibly reckless manner stoking this culture war and doing so with no regards to the myriad of people it will impact both within the trans community and far beyond.

I would hope the IRFU is a bit more open minded and whatever side they fall down on - they support their argument with the relevant science.

But once again - the utter clowns jumping for joy about this without having any kind of clue give off some of the smallest dick energy the internet has ever seen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405117#Comment_119405117

I think a ban on entering anything close to the professional game makes sense as the emphasis on performance is far greater. I think banning more casual involvement in a blanket sense will result in unnecessary prejudice. As always - I'd much rather be hearing from women within the game rather than the utter melts who are going to insist on sh1tting themselves in public (yet again).

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405068#Comment_119405068

If someone is born a female and wants to play in the male sport what is the need for written consent? I mean, it's not like they have signed up to play by accident.

Also, a risk assessment for who, and what does it involve? Seems unnecessary. As you said, they a trans male is physically at a disadvantage but that's their decision to make if they want to play in men's sport ans shouldn't require some risk assessment.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405370#Comment_119405370

It's to cover themselves legally, I'd imagine - to ensure liability falls on the player rather than the governing body if an injury happened. I can imagine a female to male transgender person suing the governing body for negligence if they suffered some sort of catastrophic injury after being allowed to play men's rugby.

yosser hughes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404873#Comment_119404873

Utter nonsense and bringing Caster Samenya is a diversion. Caster Samenya is NOT a trans anything.People who identify as another gender are NOT banned from participating in sport, they are free to play in the sex category that they are.

Males playing rugby against women is dangerous

Biological sex is fact, Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and an ideology and you are engaged in misinformation.

yosser hughes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405333#Comment_119405333

You are deluded

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405468#Comment_119405468

The overwhelming majority of the psychology / psychiatric community disagree with you.

Where did you get your medical degree?

yosser hughes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405484#Comment_119405484

You are so far behind the truth in this it's unreal. The courts will eventually have to sort this out in wider society in the face of spineless politicians and those who have nothing whatsoever to lose such as yourself.

I really can't be arsed educating you on it. There's a long list of men on the internet like you who are there saying 'what's the problem?'

Sex based rights and protections are real, necessary and protected and you won't be on the right side of history on this.

Your comments on this are utter,utter nonsense

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405333#Comment_119405333

There are plenty of female rugby players (and I know quite a few) who would destroy me in Rugby, I like most wouldn't have a hope if we tried to play. The real world is so much more nuanced. The other posters making it sound like every trans woman is going to be Keith Woods or Jonah Lomu and squash everyone in their path is deluded. Thankfully at least your post gave me hope for some common sense.

Larbre34

Sorry Clegg and Venjur, you're simply on the wrong side of history on this one.

How anyone could equate the journey of a non-contact track athlete, with the potential danger to women of playing a full contact sport against a post-pubescent biological male, of unlimited size and weight, is beyond me. Its nonsensical whataboutery.

In any case, Caster Semenya is NOT a trans woman, she is biologically intersex, being a scientific term for possessing ambiguous chromosonal patterns and genitals.

To protect Womens' sport, both in terms of safety and to preserve legitimate competition, the growing number of bans by World sporting organisations and promoters, of transsexual women, are both prudent and correct.

Its worth noting, that an Irish Indo/Mediahuis opinion poll published on the 2nd of this Month, responded to the question, "Should a transgender woman be allowed to compete in female sports?",

No - 68%

Yes - 17%

Don't know - 15%

Its also worth noting, that in the same poll ~50% agreed or strongly agreed, that a transwoman is a woman and a transman is a man.

From this, its clear that this is not simply an inherent anti-trans prejudice in the Community, but that people have actually considered the potential impact on Women's Sport as a whole.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405501#Comment_119405501

You clearly don't want a debate, certainly not an educated one - easier for you to reeeeee down the Internet and call people deluded because you've made no attempt to grasp a complex issue nor challenge your own prejudices.

Either way - the reality of gender identity isn't going away even if you really really want it to. As time goes by more and more people educate themselves to the psychological realities of gender and those who refuse to do so will continue to find themselves in a shrinking and increasingly ignorant minority.

In the meantime I can only hope that your misguided notions don't cause unnecessary harm to an extremely vulnerable group of people.

Clegg

Rather disappointed by the naked bigotry on display here.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405501#Comment_119405501

That’s probably because you are completely uneducated on this I’d imagine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405542#Comment_119405542

No need to apologise - I've been over and back on this issue myself and ultimately, I'm not trying to be on any side, just trying to articulate where my opinion sits. I will say - public opinion on this topic is (in my opinion) being overwhelmed with misinformation because its a useful political plaything for bad actors and as such I encourage people to form their own independent position.

I have a massive issue with unfair advantage in sport as I had the misfortune to compete against plenty of drug cheats. I think the reality of transwomen in sport however is infinitely more likely to be 99% casual participation. Media focus has all been on elite swimmers and cyclists but the reality is going to be waaaaay down the food chain.

An interesting read: https://i.redd.it/3t09n9fbrje91.jpg

For the record - I have not mentioned Semenya.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404873#Comment_119404873

I think women deserve to be reasonably safe in sport. You have your take.

Leave the dramatic words out, adds3 nothing.

yosser hughes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405565#Comment_119405565

Your referencing of Caster Samenya tells me all I need to know about your 'knowledge' you're lazy and ignorant. This has zero to do with bigotry.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405633#Comment_119405633

Seeing as I didn't mention Semenya (whose name you can't spell) I think I'll leave it to you to figure which one of us is ignorant.

Tonesjones

Might act as a catalyst with other sporting organisations following suit.

yosser hughes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405647#Comment_119405647

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405333#Comment_119405333

What's a cis woman? That's a term designed to make female a subset. You are just wrong, but I'll leave you to it.Well done on the pedantry, big win for you.

Clegg

I think I should point out that I never once said Semenya is trans. But rather that there has been a shameful campaign against her perpetrated by the media. Much like the one perpetrated against trans people. Not just in sport, but in general life as well. It's a short jump from discriminating against intersex people to discriminating against trans people.

The posts I've read in this thread only reinforce my belief that bigotry is rampant in society and people will prey on minority groups they view as weak.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405509#Comment_119405509

If you go by the logic that transwomen in women's sport isn't an issue because some women would "destroy" you couldn't you then also argue that you (presumably a biological male?) should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

The question is is it unfair? Somebody pumping themselves full of performance-enhancing steroids likely isn't going to "squash everyone in their paths" either, but doping isn't allowed, because it gives people an unnatural advantage. The hard reality is that transwomen are almost certainly better equipped for sport than they would have been if they had been biologically female.

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405501#Comment_119405501

Where do you stand on intersex women competing?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405677#Comment_119405677

It's a term I use about 0.1% of the time, in reference to women, usually in a conversation also referring to transwomen as an easy means to differentiate. It's not part of my regular vernacular as it doesn't need to be - so I'm not completely fragile about it, nor are any women I know.

In the same way that sometimes I call men, men - and sometimes I call them complete dullards.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405575#Comment_119405575

A) Not sure you understand the meaning of bigotry

B) Your obstinate and persistent mis-characterisation of our concern for the safety of female players and the preservation of legitimate competition in the Women's game, as bigotry, is itself, bigotry.

Don't be too disappointed when the other national Unions adopt a similar policy to the RFU in this matter, as it is surely coming.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405801#Comment_119405801

I will be very surprised if other unions bother to get involved frankly. There are no weight classes in rugby and larger stronger players physically dominating smaller ones is a foundational component of the game. For rugby to be 'safe' in this regard would be completely redraw the game. This RFU thing is reaching back in time to the one tube 2 tube paradigm where 2 tubes (trousers) conveyed greater social status than one tube (dress). It's a moral panic and they always pass, though some people probably get hurt along the way.

Clegg

Sorry Larbre. What so many on here are showing is blatantly bigotry.

You are also following the TERF playbook with regards to trans people; saying that people pushing back against bigots are in themselves, bigots.

I'm so disappointed that we've seemed to import the nonsense that's prevalent in the UK over to here.

Dubinusa

Why don't they just have tranny sports?

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405851#Comment_119405851

This isn't just the veiled bigotry as seen in other posts, but rather blatant discrimination against a minority group.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405857#Comment_119405857

Piss off! It's common sense. Your missing the gist. Have Trans sports! Why not?

yosser hughes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405857#Comment_119405857

TERF? It is YOU who should be ashamed. Is Germaine Greer a terf? Julie Bindel? You are either stupid or a misogynist at best. Your comments on this betray a remarkable ignorance and lack of concern for women. It's hardly a surprise as the media here are afraid to touch it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405973#Comment_119405973

Thread is getting tiresome, but a trans woman considers herself a woman, not some kind of hybrid.

Even if you don't agree with trans people in sports, a tiny bit of empathy here folks. If a trans person ventured into this thread the derision would be fairly crushing.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405973#Comment_119405973

Because there is not enough Trans Women and Trans Men to make up separate leagues that is why you small-minded backwards bigot.

I see nothing wrong with Trans Women in women's Rugby. It makes perfect sense. By the way Women have stronger thicker skulls than men so they have an advantage too.

Oh and a Trans Woman loses 5 per cent of her strength every two years.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405602#Comment_119405602

I'm just reading that now and I'm not sure on some of their points.

Average female testosterone is 0.5-2.4 nmol/l, not 5 nmol/l which they say is below many CIS women. They mention testosterone advantage which I'm guessing they mean male physical advantage, and there's plenty of evidence to say this is retained after 3 years of testosterone suppression. Three years is when the study ended not when the levels started to drop.

People are transitioning earlier and in more numbers than ever so while the numbers currently playing are low they may not be in the future.

They're minimizing the debate on physical size but you have to remember at the last Olympics every male weight category bar the lowest, 61Kg, out lifted the heaviest weight lifted by every female. The difference in strength is huge.

They also mention the low rate of injuries sustained but does that mean they'll change their mind when there is one? Who gets to nominate the person who gets that injury?

They say they weren't consulted but my understanding is that the RFU opened the floor to everyone and surveyed their players. So in general they're a bit over the place.

This is not an easy topic and it is a hard decision but the science is overwhelming one sided on this topic.