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RFU bans transgender players from competing in women's game.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Proper order.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Going to go against the rather disturbing tone set by this thread. This is a shameful day for sport. Much like the ongoing campaign against Caster Semenya damages athletics.

    There has been an utterly dreadful campaign of bigotry waged against trans women by high profile celebrities and media publications. It seems like discrimination is ok when the loudest voices shout about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭StevenToast


    Common sense prevails.

    "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." - Fletcher



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    Eh?

    Having someone with a man's body tackling/mauling/scrummaging women in rugby could result in death!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Yeah, this is a ludicrous moral panic based on superstition, prejudice and fragility. It will look positively medieval when reflected on in the future. It also has zero self awareness about the game of rugby where people love to see a Lomu/Skelton sized elephant run through a tiny scrum half and send them tumbling. There will be an embarrassing climb down eventually.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Yoshimi79


    Makes sense with physicality advantage



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭Augme


    Trangender players whose sex recorded at birth is female may still play in the male category if they provide written consent and a risk assessment is carried


    This seems like a very strange position to take given their stance on the issue. I'd love to know their rational for needs to carry out a risk assessment given they have already clearly stated their position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭mondeoman72


    Will fix that for you.

    There has been an utterly dreadful campaign of bigotry waged against fellas claiming to be women by high profile celebrities blah blah blah. Absolutely great that common sense prevails and PC crap gets thrown out



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,502 ✭✭✭touts


    Grabs the popcorn.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Despite the prevalence of a generally Neanderthal tone to this thread. Which I can’t agree with. I’d have to disagree with your point. I believe that this is a very nuanced subject but ultimately the physiological advantage of being born male can’t be ignored. To do so would be dangerous. Particularly in sports like rugby where contact is so much part of the game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,535 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Does it? Their thinking surely is that it's dangerous or at least unfair for women to play against people who were male for a good part of their lives.

    Female to male transsexuals would surely be up against it competing with men, but they can't be allowed to stay competing with women if they're taking hormones that would normally be on the banned list.

    For better or worse, having separate male and female categories for sports where strength comes into it is the best and fairest thing you can have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭mondeoman72


    You cannot be putting a big lump of a fella who now claims to be female, in a scrum with women. It is unfair, and downright dangerous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa


    I think anyone who was thought to be a girl at birth and goes through girls schools from a young age due to that perception should be allowed to compete if found out to be subsequently mixed or slightly male.

    Men undergoing sex change and hormone replacement should not not be allowed due to reasons of testosterone being in their body for longer periods. Thinking you’re a woman or man with subsequent sex change does not make you one.

    I think the vilification and general lack of empathy to all concerned in these situations is a worry in modern society. There should be a set of rules and any genuine case of mis- assignment at birth should be looked at equitably.



  • Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭Stewball


    Wasn't Semenya assigned female at birth, so if she was a rugby player there would be no issue with her playing women's rugby under these rules?

    I'm not fully up to speed on this debate, so I may be wrong.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,157 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Some light reading on this topic

    "the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed"

    Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage | SpringerLink

    Biological sex is the biggest defining feature when it comes to sporting performance. I think most other sports will go this way too.

    Also that's not a great headline by RTE. Trans people aren't banned from playing, it's just you have to be female at birth to compete in the women's category.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,535 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Semenya is a different case entirely. She's not transgender; she's intersex.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Unsurprisingly - a bunch of folks I've never seen on this forum charge in with delight when a trans issue is raised on the forum. Internet is full to the brim of absolute saddo's.

    No man is going to jump ship from his gender solely to play in women's rugby to grope women or destroy teams and in the very rare occasion that something like this was at risk of happening that person would be immediately jettisoned from the game before their notions bore reality.

    If this was Ireland - this would much more likely impact someone who is genuinely living their life as a women, is not a physical threat to other women and wants to play for the Clontarf 4ths. This person would likely meet with medical criteria as regards to any physical advantage and like other trans women in sports they would be easily outperformed by CIS women. If the Clontarf 4ths had an issue with it then that's for them to decide - but I'd bet such a person joining would probably be joining as a friend of someone on the team. Rugby is going to be one of those sports where the innate physical advantage of someone born male is going to shine through and as such it's a situation which should be handled with caution. I still think it's something which should be open to a case by case debate (given it's going to be highly irregular) rather than a blanket ban.

    The RFU is playing it safe here given the right wing media crusade against the trans community over there. The rags are pushing prejudice, misinformation and phobia on the daily as it's a hardline topic for supporters of the current UK Government, a Government acting in an incredibly reckless manner stoking this culture war and doing so with no regards to the myriad of people it will impact both within the trans community and far beyond.

    I would hope the IRFU is a bit more open minded and whatever side they fall down on - they support their argument with the relevant science.

    But once again - the utter clowns jumping for joy about this without having any kind of clue give off some of the smallest dick energy the internet has ever seen.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think a ban on entering anything close to the professional game makes sense as the emphasis on performance is far greater. I think banning more casual involvement in a blanket sense will result in unnecessary prejudice. As always - I'd much rather be hearing from women within the game rather than the utter melts who are going to insist on sh1tting themselves in public (yet again).



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭Augme



    If someone is born a female and wants to play in the male sport what is the need for written consent? I mean, it's not like they have signed up to play by accident.


    Also, a risk assessment for who, and what does it involve? Seems unnecessary. As you said, they a trans male is physically at a disadvantage but that's their decision to make if they want to play in men's sport ans shouldn't require some risk assessment.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,535 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    It's to cover themselves legally, I'd imagine - to ensure liability falls on the player rather than the governing body if an injury happened. I can imagine a female to male transgender person suing the governing body for negligence if they suffered some sort of catastrophic injury after being allowed to play men's rugby.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,895 ✭✭✭yosser hughes


    Utter nonsense and bringing Caster Samenya is a diversion. Caster Samenya is NOT a trans anything.People who identify as another gender are NOT banned from participating in sport, they are free to play in the sex category that they are.

    Males playing rugby against women is dangerous


    Biological sex is fact, Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and an ideology and you are engaged in misinformation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,895 ✭✭✭yosser hughes


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The overwhelming majority of the psychology / psychiatric community disagree with you.

    Where did you get your medical degree?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,895 ✭✭✭yosser hughes


    You are so far behind the truth in this it's unreal. The courts will eventually have to sort this out in wider society in the face of spineless politicians and those who have nothing whatsoever to lose such as yourself.

    I really can't be arsed educating you on it. There's a long list of men on the internet like you who are there saying 'what's the problem?'

    Sex based rights and protections are real, necessary and protected and you won't be on the right side of history on this.

    Your comments on this are utter,utter nonsense

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,898 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    There are plenty of female rugby players (and I know quite a few) who would destroy me in Rugby, I like most wouldn't have a hope if we tried to play. The real world is so much more nuanced. The other posters making it sound like every trans woman is going to be Keith Woods or Jonah Lomu and squash everyone in their path is deluded. Thankfully at least your post gave me hope for some common sense.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,098 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Sorry Clegg and Venjur, you're simply on the wrong side of history on this one.

    How anyone could equate the journey of a non-contact track athlete, with the potential danger to women of playing a full contact sport against a post-pubescent biological male, of unlimited size and weight, is beyond me. Its nonsensical whataboutery.

    In any case, Caster Semenya is NOT a trans woman, she is biologically intersex, being a scientific term for possessing ambiguous chromosonal patterns and genitals.

    To protect Womens' sport, both in terms of safety and to preserve legitimate competition, the growing number of bans by World sporting organisations and promoters, of transsexual women, are both prudent and correct.

    Its worth noting, that an Irish Indo/Mediahuis opinion poll published on the 2nd of this Month, responded to the question, "Should a transgender woman be allowed to compete in female sports?",

    No - 68%

    Yes - 17%

    Don't know - 15%

    Its also worth noting, that in the same poll ~50% agreed or strongly agreed, that a transwoman is a woman and a transman is a man.

    From this, its clear that this is not simply an inherent anti-trans prejudice in the Community, but that people have actually considered the potential impact on Women's Sport as a whole.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You clearly don't want a debate, certainly not an educated one - easier for you to reeeeee down the Internet and call people deluded because you've made no attempt to grasp a complex issue nor challenge your own prejudices.

    Either way - the reality of gender identity isn't going away even if you really really want it to. As time goes by more and more people educate themselves to the psychological realities of gender and those who refuse to do so will continue to find themselves in a shrinking and increasingly ignorant minority.

    In the meantime I can only hope that your misguided notions don't cause unnecessary harm to an extremely vulnerable group of people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Rather disappointed by the naked bigotry on display here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    That’s probably because you are completely uneducated on this I’d imagine.



This discussion has been closed.
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