Better cows here than on cleared rainforest

Esho

!

Is it not better for beef to belch away in Ireland to feed demand, rather than to belch on cleared rainforest or in air-conditioned warehouses?

Think globally , act locally - why reduce the national herd when it will mean an overall worse impact on climate change?

Danzy

That's not very progressive of you.

Let them burn the rainforest in Brazil, rewild Ireland. Walk in the Woods on Saturdays and protest loike about Brazil in Sunday.

Win win. Unless you are a poor yokel

Doesn't matter that Europe is shutting down lots of production in one of the few really fertile regions in the world. From Nigeria to China growth is largely only achieved by piling on fertilizer and sprays. The ground is very poor.

The rich activists imagine it will come from somewhere else magically and sustainabily.

People value cheap food above all else, and that is just the Green voters.

Brazil, Russia, Indonesia, India, America, China.

Places where food production will increase to meet the short fall being built in European production.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256319/better-cows-here-than-on-cleared-rainforest

I would like to see the workings on the carbon impact of livestock. My feeling is that the numbers assume grain fed, housed livestock, like a large portion of the global herd, while the Irish Herd is Grass fed, largely outdoor for most of the year. The Carbon Cycle their would be air to grass to cow to air / food. Would imagine the carbon inputs outside of that would be significantly less than grain fed

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394050#Comment_119394050

I dont believe that carbon sequestered by grass which is then eaten, is counted against beef emissions. It should be, but isn't.

Sam Russell

It is not the Brazil forest fires you need to worry about too much. It is the wild fires in Killiney, Portugal, France, Spain, Greece, California, Sydney, and many other places. These fires are a new aspect of climate change. Coupled with widespread drought, this is climate change in action - now, not in 50 years time, or even a decade.

The once in a century occurrences that now are once a decade. Flash floods in Derry this last week are another example. This is global which includes Ireland.

Reducing the number of bovines need not affect many farmers if correct mitigation is taken in time. The least profitable parts of the beef system could stop and little effect to the income of those farmers (particularly if they are compensated) but a large effect on emissions. Taking beef animals to the factory earlier would also mitigate the situation. CAP payments are the profit for these farms with a few sucklers - and in fact even the CAP payments are to help cover the losses.

It all needs to thought out - not just seen as an attack on rural Ireland - wherever that is.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394106#Comment_119394106

Most carbon sequestration happens underground, the root, the biome, ie the bacteria, invertebrates, worms etc

Permanent pasture is really good at locking away carbon. A 100 yr old native woodland, not so much.

I've spent thousands over the years planting trees, mind you, any spoilt activist I've ever met largely only ever planted single digits and lived on the snugness for years after.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256319/better-cows-here-than-on-cleared-rainforest

Have you anything scientific on which to base this?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394216#Comment_119394216

Have you anything scientific on which to criticise this?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394238#Comment_119394238

The entire ethos around science is that an assertion can be questioned. @ancapailldorcha is correct to question the claim that reducing the national herd will be worse for climate change!

touts

Eamonn Ryan won't get claps on the back and be called a great fella altogether at the next International Green Party Conference thingy if all the work is done by Brazil.

Of course what he doesn't realise is when he leaves the room they all laugh and say thank god their countries weren't the ones who decided to lead the way towards a new stone age.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394281#Comment_119394281

The OP presented a hypothesis, if you have any understanding of the scientific method you'll know that hypothesis comes before the published papers and theory. The poster in question has a reputation for snide one line comments designed to detract from the debate - there is no requirement for a poster here to back up every statement with a published journal, so if acd has a problem with some of the suppositions on the OP maybe they could formulate an actual argument as opposed to lazy claims of "source?"

As for this line from yourself:

the claim that reducing the national herd will be worse for climate change!

Incredibly dishonest representation of the OP. The OPs point is that reducing our national herd will result in our cutbacks being made up elsewhere (e.g. Brazil), in countries with less eco-friendly growing practices.

So the claim in full is that reducing the national herd will cause Brazilian herd to grow which will be worse for climate change.

Esho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394337#Comment_119394337

I've voted Green all my life , but I can't help feeling this is true

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394238#Comment_119394238

I didn't make the claim. The OP did so it's on them to back it up.

WesternZulu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394050#Comment_119394050

Intensively raised livestock actually have a lower carbon footprint than those that are outdoors.

It's more efficient, they get to slaughter weight quicker and therefore produce less methane. Your typical American feedlot system more than likely has a lower carbon footprint per kg of produce than your extensive Irish grassland equivalent. But of course there is the animal welfare issues with that too and other pollution type hotspots generated by intensive systems.

With respect to the OP and the damage of the Brazilian rainforest. It doesn't matter where the meat/milk is produced - if it consumes feed in the form of soya from Brazil then it's contributing indirectly to Amazon deforestation.

While permanent grasslands do store carbon they are not an infinite carbon sink - rather it stops storing carbon after a certain period of time.

The whole issue with climate change and livestock production isn't black and white. The food system is complex and all aspects of it need to be evaluated before policy decisions are made. Globally demand for meat is increasing this should be taken into account too.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394439#Comment_119394439

The OP posted the following: "why reduce the national herd when it will mean an overall worse impact on climate change?"

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394238#Comment_119394238

In a period of soaring global demand for beef and reduced ability to produce in large areas like the American West, taking the 6th largest beef exporter out of the equation is going to be a fantastic boost for places like Brazil.

Brazil have a large forest, no one gives a hoot in reality, which is tragic.

Was looking at a Green party senior member talk about climate change and food sources, they didn't even know about the importance of natural gas for heating glass houses, even in Southern Spain.

The knowledge gap is pretty fuckin wild.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394439#Comment_119394439

They didn't. They made an unsubstantiated claim which other people are apparently supposed to research for them. We know that meat farming is partly driving climate change so the idea that more cows is better for the climate is patently ridiculous.

I am of course more than happy to change my mind once I see evidence.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394522#Comment_119394522

Correction, the OP posted the following:

Is it not better for beef to belch away in Ireland to feed demand, rather than to belch on cleared rainforest or in air-conditioned warehouses?

Think globally , act locally - why reduce the national herd when it will mean an overall worse impact on climate change?

Its right in front of you yet you insist in selective quoting. Again, very disingenuous of you.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394567#Comment_119394567

Do you think that growing more beef in Brazil and less in Ireland, for a near net-zero change in global herd numbers, will be better or worse for the environment?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394606#Comment_119394606

Where did I say that? Quote please.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394567#Comment_119394567

He didn't say that though, not even close.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394609#Comment_119394609

I asked you a question.

Do you think that growing more beef in Brazil and less in Ireland, for a near net-zero change in global herd numbers, will be better or worse for the environment?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394661#Comment_119394661

No, you made a snide dig when I asked for evidence. My instincts were that this would be standard denialist claptrap and so far, they're on the money.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394679#Comment_119394679

Why so defensive? Do you disagree with the statement that growing more beef in brazil to make up for less beef in Ireland, would be worse for the climate?

Esho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394679#Comment_119394679

No, my post is not denialist. I watch the news

The rainforests are the lungs of the world - they are bring raised to grow beef.

This beef will be consumed in Europe.

I'm assuming cows in Brazil and cows in Ireland will produce the same amount of methane.

But a rainforest is not burned down to produce the same beef.

The greens look like they sticking to the rules but missing the bigger picture.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394753#Comment_119394753

So, no evidence then.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394746#Comment_119394746

Why the snide comment?

I've no idea. Depends on what the evidence says.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394587#Comment_119394587

I copied and pasted the question directly from the OP. How is that disingenuous?

The OP is making that assumption that if Irish beef is removed that it will be completely filled with imports from Brazil but there is no evidence to support this - just a big assumption. I could make an equal assumption that there could be massive levies for imports of unsustainably sourced beef.

The OP is free to make claims but we can equally ask them to back up their claim or somehow question it.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394772#Comment_119394772

So in the absence of evidence you have no opinion on the matter.

But earlier you said it was all denialist claptrap to you. How could it be denialist if you have no evidence to the contrary?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394779#Comment_119394779

The premise is absurd. More cows does not benefit the climate.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394783#Comment_119394783

Who has said it will or does?