Better cows here than on cleared rainforest

Esho

!

Is it not better for beef to belch away in Ireland to feed demand, rather than to belch on cleared rainforest or in air-conditioned warehouses?

Think globally , act locally - why reduce the national herd when it will mean an overall worse impact on climate change?

Danzy

That's not very progressive of you.

Let them burn the rainforest in Brazil, rewild Ireland. Walk in the Woods on Saturdays and protest loike about Brazil in Sunday.

Win win. Unless you are a poor yokel

Doesn't matter that Europe is shutting down lots of production in one of the few really fertile regions in the world. From Nigeria to China growth is largely only achieved by piling on fertilizer and sprays. The ground is very poor.

The rich activists imagine it will come from somewhere else magically and sustainabily.

People value cheap food above all else, and that is just the Green voters.

Brazil, Russia, Indonesia, India, America, China.

Places where food production will increase to meet the short fall being built in European production.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256319/better-cows-here-than-on-cleared-rainforest

I would like to see the workings on the carbon impact of livestock. My feeling is that the numbers assume grain fed, housed livestock, like a large portion of the global herd, while the Irish Herd is Grass fed, largely outdoor for most of the year. The Carbon Cycle their would be air to grass to cow to air / food. Would imagine the carbon inputs outside of that would be significantly less than grain fed

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394050#Comment_119394050

I dont believe that carbon sequestered by grass which is then eaten, is counted against beef emissions. It should be, but isn't.

Sam Russell

It is not the Brazil forest fires you need to worry about too much. It is the wild fires in Killiney, Portugal, France, Spain, Greece, California, Sydney, and many other places. These fires are a new aspect of climate change. Coupled with widespread drought, this is climate change in action - now, not in 50 years time, or even a decade.

The once in a century occurrences that now are once a decade. Flash floods in Derry this last week are another example. This is global which includes Ireland.

Reducing the number of bovines need not affect many farmers if correct mitigation is taken in time. The least profitable parts of the beef system could stop and little effect to the income of those farmers (particularly if they are compensated) but a large effect on emissions. Taking beef animals to the factory earlier would also mitigate the situation. CAP payments are the profit for these farms with a few sucklers - and in fact even the CAP payments are to help cover the losses.

It all needs to thought out - not just seen as an attack on rural Ireland - wherever that is.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394106#Comment_119394106

Most carbon sequestration happens underground, the root, the biome, ie the bacteria, invertebrates, worms etc

Permanent pasture is really good at locking away carbon. A 100 yr old native woodland, not so much.

I've spent thousands over the years planting trees, mind you, any spoilt activist I've ever met largely only ever planted single digits and lived on the snugness for years after.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256319/better-cows-here-than-on-cleared-rainforest

Have you anything scientific on which to base this?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394216#Comment_119394216

Have you anything scientific on which to criticise this?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394238#Comment_119394238

The entire ethos around science is that an assertion can be questioned. @ancapailldorcha is correct to question the claim that reducing the national herd will be worse for climate change!

touts

Eamonn Ryan won't get claps on the back and be called a great fella altogether at the next International Green Party Conference thingy if all the work is done by Brazil.

Of course what he doesn't realise is when he leaves the room they all laugh and say thank god their countries weren't the ones who decided to lead the way towards a new stone age.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394281#Comment_119394281

The OP presented a hypothesis, if you have any understanding of the scientific method you'll know that hypothesis comes before the published papers and theory. The poster in question has a reputation for snide one line comments designed to detract from the debate - there is no requirement for a poster here to back up every statement with a published journal, so if acd has a problem with some of the suppositions on the OP maybe they could formulate an actual argument as opposed to lazy claims of "source?"

As for this line from yourself:

the claim that reducing the national herd will be worse for climate change!

Incredibly dishonest representation of the OP. The OPs point is that reducing our national herd will result in our cutbacks being made up elsewhere (e.g. Brazil), in countries with less eco-friendly growing practices.

So the claim in full is that reducing the national herd will cause Brazilian herd to grow which will be worse for climate change.

Esho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394337#Comment_119394337

I've voted Green all my life , but I can't help feeling this is true

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394238#Comment_119394238

I didn't make the claim. The OP did so it's on them to back it up.

WesternZulu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394050#Comment_119394050

Intensively raised livestock actually have a lower carbon footprint than those that are outdoors.

It's more efficient, they get to slaughter weight quicker and therefore produce less methane. Your typical American feedlot system more than likely has a lower carbon footprint per kg of produce than your extensive Irish grassland equivalent. But of course there is the animal welfare issues with that too and other pollution type hotspots generated by intensive systems.

With respect to the OP and the damage of the Brazilian rainforest. It doesn't matter where the meat/milk is produced - if it consumes feed in the form of soya from Brazil then it's contributing indirectly to Amazon deforestation.

While permanent grasslands do store carbon they are not an infinite carbon sink - rather it stops storing carbon after a certain period of time.

The whole issue with climate change and livestock production isn't black and white. The food system is complex and all aspects of it need to be evaluated before policy decisions are made. Globally demand for meat is increasing this should be taken into account too.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394439#Comment_119394439

The OP posted the following: "why reduce the national herd when it will mean an overall worse impact on climate change?"

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394238#Comment_119394238

In a period of soaring global demand for beef and reduced ability to produce in large areas like the American West, taking the 6th largest beef exporter out of the equation is going to be a fantastic boost for places like Brazil.

Brazil have a large forest, no one gives a hoot in reality, which is tragic.

Was looking at a Green party senior member talk about climate change and food sources, they didn't even know about the importance of natural gas for heating glass houses, even in Southern Spain.

The knowledge gap is pretty fuckin wild.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394439#Comment_119394439

They didn't. They made an unsubstantiated claim which other people are apparently supposed to research for them. We know that meat farming is partly driving climate change so the idea that more cows is better for the climate is patently ridiculous.

I am of course more than happy to change my mind once I see evidence.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394522#Comment_119394522

Correction, the OP posted the following:

Is it not better for beef to belch away in Ireland to feed demand, rather than to belch on cleared rainforest or in air-conditioned warehouses?

Think globally , act locally - why reduce the national herd when it will mean an overall worse impact on climate change?

Its right in front of you yet you insist in selective quoting. Again, very disingenuous of you.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394567#Comment_119394567

Do you think that growing more beef in Brazil and less in Ireland, for a near net-zero change in global herd numbers, will be better or worse for the environment?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394606#Comment_119394606

Where did I say that? Quote please.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394567#Comment_119394567

He didn't say that though, not even close.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394609#Comment_119394609

I asked you a question.

Do you think that growing more beef in Brazil and less in Ireland, for a near net-zero change in global herd numbers, will be better or worse for the environment?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394661#Comment_119394661

No, you made a snide dig when I asked for evidence. My instincts were that this would be standard denialist claptrap and so far, they're on the money.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394679#Comment_119394679

Why so defensive? Do you disagree with the statement that growing more beef in brazil to make up for less beef in Ireland, would be worse for the climate?

Esho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394679#Comment_119394679

No, my post is not denialist. I watch the news

The rainforests are the lungs of the world - they are bring raised to grow beef.

This beef will be consumed in Europe.

I'm assuming cows in Brazil and cows in Ireland will produce the same amount of methane.

But a rainforest is not burned down to produce the same beef.

The greens look like they sticking to the rules but missing the bigger picture.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394753#Comment_119394753

So, no evidence then.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394746#Comment_119394746

Why the snide comment?

I've no idea. Depends on what the evidence says.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394587#Comment_119394587

I copied and pasted the question directly from the OP. How is that disingenuous?

The OP is making that assumption that if Irish beef is removed that it will be completely filled with imports from Brazil but there is no evidence to support this - just a big assumption. I could make an equal assumption that there could be massive levies for imports of unsustainably sourced beef.

The OP is free to make claims but we can equally ask them to back up their claim or somehow question it.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394772#Comment_119394772

So in the absence of evidence you have no opinion on the matter.

But earlier you said it was all denialist claptrap to you. How could it be denialist if you have no evidence to the contrary?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394779#Comment_119394779

The premise is absurd. More cows does not benefit the climate.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394783#Comment_119394783

Who has said it will or does?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394783#Comment_119394783

Well then you fundamentally misunderstand the premise, because in this scenario the net cattle numbers do not change. They merely move from irish grass fed to brazilian ranches made out of burnt rainforest.

Once again, Do you disagree with the statement that growing more beef in brazil to make up for less beef in Ireland, would be worse for the climate?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394796#Comment_119394796

The premise is ridiculous. Why would you need to grow more beef in Brazil to make up for less in Ireland when there's a whole continent at Ireland's doorstep?

El Tarangu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394606#Comment_119394606

It would depend, I suppose, on the degree of emissions generated in shipping all the tonnes of Brazilian soy to feed the cattle in Ireland, versus the emissions generated by Brazilian cows consuming this same soy.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394802#Comment_119394802

The whole continent is due to cut herd numbers

Brazil on the otherhand is due to grow to meet global demand. Brazilian beef is cheap, and exported worldwide (Irish beef also goes worldwide)

Irelands loss could be Brazils gain. Nothing ridiculous about it.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394839#Comment_119394839

The premise of the OP is that fewer cows in Ireland will exacerbate climate change. That premise is absurd.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394802#Comment_119394802

🤪

You are being a bit disingenuous and I think you know it.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394849#Comment_119394849

I'm just asking questions. All I've gotten back are snide comments.

Esho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394439#Comment_119394439

Exactly

dePeatrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394802#Comment_119394802

Isn’t all of the EU being asked to produce less beef? Certainly not too happy about it in the Netherlands.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394841#Comment_119394841

If you read this post:

!

Is it not better for beef to belch away in Ireland to feed demand, rather than to belch on cleared rainforest or in air-conditioned warehouses?

Think globally , act locally - why reduce the national herd when it will mean an overall worse impact on climate change?

and the conclusion you come to is that its about less cows globally, you are being disingenuous.

Even the thread title:

"Better cows here than on cleared rainforest"

Its so painfully obvious what the premise here is. You must have had a hard time in English class 🤣

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394871#Comment_119394871

Is it? Gas emissions are due to be cut but Europeans are eating less meat so I see no reasons to import beef from Brazil.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394839#Comment_119394839

Comparing the production of beef in Ireland and continental Europe is like comparing the growing of wine grapes in Ballydehob Vs Bordeaux.

Easy to do if you know next to nothing about growing grapes in either.

A lot of this debate is driven by people who know nothing about food production, the part weather plays, that soil types play.

If you can't understand why East Cork is tillage and poorer land by comparison in North Cork is dairy and more valuable production wise then you don't know very basic reality about growing produce, of any kind. Yet the same East Cork land if in North Cork would Excel in production.

It's not just beef and dairy, many of the activists haven't even the barest understanding about veg and fruit as well.

Has anyone else in this thread experience in commercial farming , organic and otherwise of livestock and vegetables?

Vegetables, they come from the shop, don't they?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394881#Comment_119394881

More snide comments and typical denialist drivel. As has been pointed out, this absurd premise makes several shaky assumptions which are by no means guaranteed.

The claim was that fewer cows in Ireland would contribute to climate change. You've disingenuously rewrote it but this, being a text-based site makes this exercise in deceit rather pointless.

No evidence after multiple requests. I'll consider this debunked now.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394883#Comment_119394883

The EU commission disagree with you on importing Brazilian beef but that is neither here nor there.

Beef is a fungible commodity.

dePeatrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394883#Comment_119394883

Greenpeace aim to reduce beef production by 71% by 2030, that’s way more than the natural decline in consumption. So we will end up eating beef from Brazil.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394902#Comment_119394902

Can you point out what parts I have "disingenuously rewrote"?

No evidence after multiple requests. I'll consider this debunked now.

🤣 The man of science announces he has debunked something in the absence of evidence - sounds a lot more like faith and blind belief

bad2thebone

Ah yes the cow problem, it's all part of the green energy agenda.

Ok we'll rare more sheep instead. Ah no you can't do that either. How about Wagyu then, well now that's not applicable either.

Meanwhile there's organic matter letting off gasses allover the place during the Autumn, well you see.... they let off methane in small doses incrementaly.

Ok then you've a problem on your hands.

Farmers will come up trump's no matter what, they'll put the country to a halt. Rightly so.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394893#Comment_119394893

I don't...I do remember, I did not realise you were involved in agriculture somehow when I responded a bit sarcastically to a comment of yours (a long time ago now) where you were bemoaning terrible ignorance of, and lack of respect (or even a hatred) for farming & agriculture out among the public...

I still think you are overly cynical (?), certainly when it comes to the public in Ireland, I am not sure why?

Are you paying too much attention to loud mouths (or trolls/bots!?) over on the exact opposite pov from you, spouting rubbish about farmers + green issues on social media? They won't reflect the general public IMO.

I genuinely think most people in Ireland are still well aware of how important agriculture is to us all + don't have some extremist deep-green viewpoint, where they want the national herd culled to nothing + all the beef & dairy farmers pensioned off and the whole lot reforested and "rewilded" etc!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394909#Comment_119394909

There's supposed to be some kind of climate/CO2 adjustment mechanism coming in for imports to the EU, but I haven't read up much on the details of it. (edit: a quick google, and I see such food imports would not be covered by what is planned)

I suppose agricultural products are a special case (in that sector is quite protected from alot of non EU imports?), but would have though it should apply to things like meat produced in Brazil (so it will have, effectively extra "climate" related EU tariffs on it making it an expensive product).

Really politicians have to level with people and if there's these green adjustments made to food production of all sorts in the EU (e.g. less meat) there's no point just shifting the burden elsewhere. If beef production in EU starts to be reduced for example, beef consumption in EU also has to fall. It can't just be made up by getting that beef from Brazil instead etc.

spontindeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256319/better-cows-here-than-on-cleared-rainforest

If we go any deeper down the Green rabbit hole, we will end up like Sri Lanka with food price hikes of 70%. Sri Lanka banned all Fertilizers in 2021 and food prices are now 70% higher. The radical Green Party wants to ban Fertilizers here too! The Green Party thinks food is "too cheap". It shows the level which they're gone to justify what they're doing. It's not working. You don't want to put radical greens in charge of economic decisions. It always ends up inflationary.

China is also opening up new Coal-Fired Power Plants every month. We have an energy crisis and now the midlands Peat-Fired Power Plants are soon to close.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394746#Comment_119394746

That is strawman argument. Brazil will have massive beef production with no concern for the environment whether Irish farmers produce any or not.

Ireland needs to reduce our carbon emissions, and a significant level comes from agriculture - and in particular from beef & dairy production. There are measures that can be taken to mitigate the problem, and they must be taken not just now but also over the next decade. Delaying the implementation makes those mitigation steps greater and more urgent.

Wildfires in Killiney and Wicklow are not imaginary events, they are happening not just this summer but this week. Flash floods in Derry happened this week. And the leaders of the Gov are arguing whether the cutbacks should be 22% or 30% or somewhere in between.

And guess what, whichever they settle on will be missed by a rural mile.