Installation Dilemma / Too many panels

simpsimp

Hi:-

We're in the middle of an installation and have a dilemma.

Panels are on the roof, but the problem is that the installer has put up as many panels as possible. Other installers suggested fewer panels, for around the same price, and so we went with the highest Kw per € quote... (I know, I know...)

They have put 10 on the pitch roof, but they're within 250mm of the bottom edge of the roof (not 500mm as per SEAI guidelines). Also they've covered a vent (which the DCV installer said should be fine, tbh, but again is against SEAI guidelines). So if we were to strictly follow SEAI we'd end up with 8 on the pitch roof.

They have put 6 on the flat roof, but again they're right up to the flat roof parapet. If we follow SEAI here, we're down to 4.

I've asked them to come back out to review, and they'll be visiting next week to remedy things on the roof, before we commission the electrics.

On the flat roof, we do need access for maintenance etc, so I'm unfortunately asking them to remove 2 panels.

On the pitch roof, should I ask them to move the panels to allow 500mm at the edge, and lose two panels?

Is this something that is subject to verification as part of the BER, so we may as well do it now? Or might it pass inspection, as I understand that SEAI are less concerned about planning issues as planning exemptions are on the way?

Practically speaking, we're looking at the following three options...

Current: 16 Panels: 6.24kw

Lose 2 on Flat: 14 Panels: 5.46kw

Lose further 2 on Pitch: 12 Panels: 4.68kw

I don't want to lose the panels, and I'm not sure how this will impact overall price (that's to be negotiated, I suppose; original quote was for 15 panels).

I'd be glad of your opinions on this, thanks!

mike_2009

Assume you ARE going with the SEAI grant? SEAI are very fussy and have an extensive list for the installers to follow who have to submit photos of everything to the SEAI site before it's approved. They inspect a small quantity of installations too. The risk is you don't get the grant vs what you're happy with. Are you paying the full amount up front to the installer & getting a rebate of the grant later on or is the installer taking the risk on the grant recovery meaning you're only paying him net of grant? That's the risk. 4.68kW is still a good sized system.

simpsimp

We have the maximum grant amount at stake, i.e. €3,000. We are the payee on the grant amount, and we agreed with the installer that we would withhold the amount as a final payment until the SEAI grant is paid to us. So yes, they're on the hook for the SEAI approval.

I raised the issue with them and was told that this would only be an issue in case of inspection, but that they'll proceed according to my instruction, if I'm not happy.

Another aspect of the 500mm margin is that this will still be part of the planning regs even after the exemption comes in, so it would be contrary to planning and require planning permission for retention in future, if it were queried...

bullit_dodger

Do nothing mate. Leave all the panels up there - unless you want some removed for your own reasons like maintenance. If SEAI come out and inspect and fail the install as they are too close to the edge, then it will be up to the supplier to fix. Not your dime. I know this (for a fact) as it happened to me. :-)

In my case supplier rocked up and moved all the panels. An option that they suggested was that if SEAI were still unhappy, I'd take a panel off, store it in the shed......have all the regulated distances.....SEAI would pass, and then we'd re-install the panel. The 500mm gap is ... a lot. I'm a firm believer of having a gap, but 20-25cm is fine from the edge.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388683#Comment_119388683

The maximum grant dropped to €2400 after the battery grant of €600 was scrapped earlier this year.

simpsimp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390680#Comment_119390680

We were grant approved before the grant dropped to €2,400. The installation is dragging on for that long!

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390857#Comment_119390857

Just make sure it's fully installed before the 8 month time limit is up. That's a long wait though for the install to get finished, I would be pushing the installer at this stage to get it sorted.

simpsimp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390996#Comment_119390996

Absolutely, we have until October. I anticipate that we'll be installation complete by mid-August; and then start with BER and grant approval.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389091#Comment_119389091

^^^ this

I like your installer. They are doing you a big favour suggesting and installing a max number of panels for the same price as others. And then hoping the SEAI don't come to inspect their anal rules. And if they do, it's their financial risk, not yours. People should PM you for the contact details for that installer, they deserve all the business they can get.

simpsimp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119404222#Comment_119404222

I mean, when you put it like that...

DC999

Yeah, distance from the edge is deffo impacting amount we can all produce and our break-even point (especially now with FIT looking like a runner). Which limits the excess back to the grid - which help everyone.

We only got 3 panels (yeah, you read that right) on one roof due to the rules. And only 4 on other 2 sides. Thankfully using our flat roof saved our bacon on install day when they realised they could fit way less than planned - or we'd have a tiny system.

Roof can't take anymore now. So bar swapping panels in time to higher wattage, we can't increase output. No garden space for a DIY ground mount or sunny place for a shed roof. Many others like that I'm sure.

simpsimp

Thanks for your thoughts. I think we're going to cross our fingers on the pitch roof, but ask the installer to just remove two panels on the flat roof, so that we can get clear access around the area for maintenance etc. And all things going well, we end up with a decent sized (5.46kw) system.

unkel

Leave those two panels. Or you will regret it!

Padre_Pio

Regarding panel spacings, are you in breach of any planning rules if you breach the SEAI guidelines?

Is losing the grant your biggest risk, or would you ever get an enforcement notice?

simpsimp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405756#Comment_119405756

The 500 mm rule is in the SEAI guidelines, but also in the revised planning guidelines, so if it gets picked up on, you'd be looking at planning retention.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405756#Comment_119405756

If you install more than 7 panels without planning permission, you are in breach. This is no longer enforced though after a case many years ago where an eastern European lady took the council to court and won at the highest level

Plaster your roofs!

simpsimp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119406918#Comment_119406918

Sure, but the size of array exemption is going away this year (see proposed new rules here: https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/3b9bf-planning-permission-exemptions-for-rooftop-solar-panels-on-homes-and-other-buildings-proposed)

Once rooftop installation is exempt, pretty much the only remaining rule is the 500 mm from edge rule.

unkel

I would put serious money on county councils not going to even try to enforce that either. But it will likely affect your subsidy if you do a grant based SEAI official install and you get inspected. In your case, the risk is the installer's, so you have nothing to lose.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407208#Comment_119407208

This is not retrospective though, any of us in current breach will forever be in breach. If a council receive a complaint then they have to follow up on...

SD_DRACULA

Let me give you a tip if you get inspected like I was.

If the panels which come into question with distances etc, are connected to a second string, simply leave that string disconnected on the inspection day and they have to discard it completely, tip from the inspector.

I didn't know this and had to get my installer to remove some panels, take pictures, send to SEAI and immediately put them back, what a waste of time.

unkel

LOL Irish solution to an Irish problem 🙃

The sooner we get rid of this lunacy grant system, the better.

yankinlk

The only reason to worry about an install should be safety. If 300mm is safer for wind reasons, I'm all for it. If its an aesthetic thing it should be ignored.

Without some rules people will take things too far. I wish I had snapped a photo of an install in casteltroy that was on scaffolding in someone's back yard backing on to a main road. One gust and thh whole thing would be in traffic. An extreme example but still that's why we can't have nice things.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417779#Comment_119417779

No panels is safer for wind 😂

I don't know who came up with the 500mm rule, but it is clearly arbitrary. Installers only stick to it for grant installs. The hooks are bolted directly into the rafters, those panels aren't going anywhere if securely fitted.

DC999

So if the panels blow off in a storm, the rafters and roof are going too. Good to know :) That said, 'fill the roof' is my new motto. Our 100 year roof has lived through a lot already.

SD_DRACULA

I totally agree safety is no 1, the panels on my house are all well within their "safety" requirements but I absolutely think that doesn't matter for my shed as it is way lower and quite sheltered from the wind due to the houses

Apparently there are some "garage" exceptions but if it has water/power it can't be classified as that (I tried)

unkel

That's pretty maxed out alright 😁

slave1

I was up the North yesterday, saw a few examples like DS_ with panels right to the edge, I thought it was noise related not safety as the various mounting systems have serious wind speed ratings

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417014#Comment_119417014

As I was oversizing my inverter I left panels unconnected until after grant payment in case there was an inspection, once paid I hooked up, sold the hybrid and batteries to pay for DIY batteries/SOFAR battery inverter and more panels

unkel

I somehow have it in my head that it's to do with that you could still walk around them on your roof - for firefighters. Not sure if true.

Edit: this US site seems to confirm:

https://www.a-rsolar.com/blog/design-setbacks-solar-panels-roof-line/

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418611#Comment_119418611

Now I get why you have a 20kwh battery :)

SD_DRACULA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418778#Comment_119418778

Shame about the winter shading of them but at least then I can load shift using night rate and not have to worry about "good days" where the PV can't get to the batteries as they are full.

bullit_dodger

Turned out the SEAI guy who came out to me knew a friend of mine so I got into a decent enough conversation and was shooting the breeze about some of the requirements. I did bring up the 500mm spacing and it was indeed for wind loading. The danger is as you get closer to the edge there is a higher percent change that (turbulent) air will catch the panels, depending on what angle the wind is hitting the side of your house.

Why 500mm, well they have to put "some" number on it. The risk of course is lessened the more you go, but 200-300mm and a well installed bracket correctly screwed/bolted into the rafter.....that guy ain't going nowhere.

Gerry

this is an interesting thread for sure. I lost out on 2 panels due to the 500mm rule. I am wondering about moving to 300mm post inspection and then adding another string. I honestly think 500 is excessive.

SD_DRACULA

Well the fact that they say 200mm away is fine from the ridge but not the side/bottom edge of the roof is a bit self-contradicting.

I definitely missed on 1-2 extra panels because of it but the installer also said he wouldn't be comfortable with going so close to the edge so I took his advice.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427091#Comment_119427091

The only reason an SEAI installer would be uncomfortable going so close is that if they got an inspection, their install wouldn't pass the SEAI criteria for the grant 😂

https://www.seai.ie/publications/Desktop-Audit-Photographic-Guidance.pdf

"Evidence array is not minimum 500mm from roof edge Evidence of no rail overhang to module and clamp Evidence of no end caps on mounting bar "

What's needed for proof is a "Photo of array":

STEP 2 Common Photos are required to confirm the location of the home and the works have taken place. The common photos shall be taken in three stages: A. Pre-install B. Post works C. During works - Please Note this applies only to the following measures; I. External wall insulation II. Internal wall insulation III. Floor Insulation Photos Required in all installations, 1. Front of the home 2. Both Sides elevations/Gables of the home (if applicable) 3. Rear/Back of the home 4. The ESB meter, this is to confirm the MPRN number and year of build 5. Gas Meter (if applicable)