Germany needs a bailout

MrMusician18

So it looks like nordstream 1 is going to operate at 20% for a while before it's anticipated that the taps are turned off completely. In response to this, the European Commission have come up with a plan to (potentially mandatory) reduce has consumption across the bloc by 15% in an effort to bolster reserves before the winter. This has caused division across the EU with gas network isolated countries like Spain and Portugal resisting.

Spain's deputy PM even has come out with this line, which has strong echos of the German Finance minister during the eurozone crisis: “Unlike other countries, we Spaniards have not lived beyond our means from an energy point of view,”. Other countries that were at the blunt end of German ire during the Eurozone crisis aren't being particularly kind to the plan, stating that it's simply a rescue for Germany and bailing them out for their poor energy policy.

Ireland is also isolated physically from European network, so a 15% cut here wouldn't do anything but relieve supply pressure in the UK. The Irish governments position on this mandatory cut isn't clear however. Would such a sacrifice be palatable here to save the economy that charged us 6% on the bailout loans? - I have my doubts.

head82

For Ireland to reduce its gas consumption by 15% would in no way benefit the availabity of gas to our European neighbors considering our supplies are from the UK/Norway North sea region due to our location geographically.

However, I do believe we're tied into some EU agreement that provides for the sharing of available supplys to be distributed equally amongst all EU territories in the event of a shortage.

How the logistics of that would work, I have no idea.

xxxxxxl

Ha, Will a bomb be going off in Germany 🤣

Bit cynical

If reducing consumption by 15% will not help then we will be told to pay some other way.

Bit cynical

So people can remind themselves about our bailout here's an article written during the lead up to it.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/nov/15/ireland-portugal-spain-european-debt-crisis

Many other similar articles about how Ireland was under pressure by foreign interests prior to accepting the bailout.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11755197

We should remember this when Germany and the likes are looking for help. We helped them by taking the bailout. They did not help us.

Atlantic Dawn

Germany have loads of coal that if they need to they can switch to relatively easily.

The eco lads/ladettes will quiten down when their house is too cold to live in.

Pa ElGrande

This video of Putin is several years old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y3-jEYH9Lo

Germany to close all 84 of its coal-fired power plants, will rely primarily on renewable energy, Jan. 26, 2019

Germany shuts down half of its 6 remaining nuclear plants, Jan 03, 2022

Germany Reopens Coal Plants Because Of Reduced Russian Energy, Jul 8, 2022

Why Germany won’t give up on giving up nuclear, April 28, 2022

Three nuclear power plants remain active — down from 17 in 2011 — and they’re scheduled for decommissioning at the end of this year.

Three other plants closed at the end of 2021 and are in the early stages of shutdown. All other plants are being dismantled, and can’t just be switched back on: The containment building of the Isar 1 site in Bavaria, for example, is already being taken apart. Any realistic discussion about delaying the phaseout centers around the final six.

The six nuclear power plants generated 12 percent of German electricity last year; the final three produce about 5 percent.

Germans could switch to wood this winter to heat their homes as Russia withholds natural gas, Deutsche Bank says, Jul 13, 2022

The panic is palpable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh2aJAP4g2A

European Commissioner for Energy Kadri Simson told reporters that gas storage capacities in the EU are now filled to about 65% but that further reduction of Russian gas deliveries will make reaching the 80% target "very challenging."

Failing to adequately fill in storage capacities means "we risk ending this winter with empty storage which will be impossible to refill in time for the next heating season," she stressed.

source

Pa ElGrande

Portugal refuses Brussels’ call to cut gas consumption

Portugal needs gas to power its renewables energy sector. Without gas, and in the situation of drought that has already deeply compromised hydro power, systems in place would simply be incapable of supplying the country, environment minister Duarte Cordeiro told reporters yesterday.

Portugal isn’t the only country digging in heels against Von der Leyen’s European Gas Demand Reduction Plan. Other dissenters include Spain, Greece, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus. Elsewhere, Poland, Hungary and Slovakia are also opposed, for slightly different reasons: they want the plan ‘softened’; the percentage cut to be lower.

To be fair, Brussels has already accepted that countries (like Portugal) which have very limited ‘interconnections’ (very little ability to share power) can cut by 5% not 15% – but even that, says Expresso, is not acceptable to either Portugal’s or Spain’s political leaders, both of them in charge of countries with very limited ‘interconnections’.

Let's see how friendly EU states really are when it comes to sharing an essential resource in limited supply.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387672#Comment_119387672

No they wont

it will just prove what they are saying for the last 20 years is right, building entire energy system based on coal/oil/gas is stupid, especially for ireland when we don’t have enough of those resources available to provide

If we had invested in renewable 20 years ago and run out grid on them we wouldn’t care now

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387672#Comment_119387672

Not much good if you live in an apartment ,and your gas central heating goes off ...

As for support from here ,we'll just send what-ever excess electricity we have through interconnectors to the UK , and from there to Europe ,which we normally do anyway ... I assume though ,that moneypoint and the tarbert power stations will be flat out over winter,(there is a gas inter-connector between the UK and Europe ,so that'll prob be pumping flat out all winter too .. )

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387773#Comment_119387773

This is absolute nonsense, electrical grids using wind and solar depend entirely on gas to maintain the grid stability and meet demand. All the wind and solar can do is delay when the gas must be consumed. There are no electrical grids anywhere in the world that majority depend exclusively on wind and solar, ALL must have backup systems. Even a small scale project like El Hierro has not managed it, a much larger grid (Germany) has no way to do this either.

This is from the Irish Academy of Engineering: NATURAL GAS - Essential for Ireland’s Future Energy Security

I don't know which illicit substances the politicians smoke in Germany, If you want to see how successful energiewende has been, then look at that countries nameplate capacity for wind, solar and hydro and then look at the actual % generated from those sources on the grid over the course of a year. German consumers pay the highest prices for electricity in Europe. Not only that, Norwegian consumers have found that their previously cheap and reliable hydro-electricity has been bid up by the inter-connectors to Germany (via Denmark) and the UK.

To borrow from an old dating joke, when designing an electrical grid you can pick two from the following matrix: Cheap, Reliable, Net Zero

asdfg87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256086/germany-needs-a-bailout

We are the nice boys of the world and we we will do as we are told.

When did we ever say NO?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387857#Comment_119387857

Wind and solar are just one type of renewable

We already have hydro but options like wave and methane are available but not invested in

The national herd could supply plenty of gas instead of been so reliant on UK etc.

We are not Germany. People seem to be obsessed with Germany and then use it as a reference to say we shouldn't invest in Ireland.

We could potentially reduce our reliance on gas to a minimal instead of been total reliant.

If the best option you can come up with in the middle of a crisis is to stick your fingers in your ears shouting "gas gas gas" then thats your choice

Lessons I learn from this (same lesson 70’s oil crisis):

Dependence on a foreign power for energy security is crazy. Germany/Russia, Ireland/UK.

Those who made Germany abandon nuclear have endangered both Germany, European peace and the EU.

Ireland should have gone nuclear years ago.

Kermit.de.frog

When people go cold this winter all that green nonsense is going out the window.

Europe has been, despite the warnings, led down the road of leaving itself dangerously exposed to foreign sources of oil and gas while Green buffoons encouraged the closure of power plants and the blocking of resource exploitation in our own territories.

All I can say is brace yourselves folks. The civil unrest is coming in Europe this winter. Wouldn't want to be a green politician or environmentalist (among other groups).

touts

Germany asset stripped Ireland and Spain when it turned out that their pension funds had invested all their money in scams like Anglo Irish Bank. They forced the Irish and Spanish governments to nationalise those scams and then pay back in full and with winnings the gambling debts of those pension funds. Then to add insult to injury when all the "rainy day funds" and "pension reserve funds" had been emptied they came in to "bailout" the Irish government for the debts to German pension funds by giving them loans from the German taxpayer at crippling interest rates. It was as classic a shakedown as any gangland scam. the closest analogy I can think of is a drug dealer knocking on the door of some elderly parents to tell them their son owes him money and if they don't pay they will burn down the house. There are schools and hospitals still being build across the fatherland paid for by the Irish and Spanish taxpayers.

So yea. What goes around comes around. Let them freeze.

Pussyhands

Ursula and co. thought they had all the power with these sanctions yet Putin is 4 steps ahead of them all the time.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387904#Comment_119387904

The "Green buffoons" wanted to invest in renewables. Not in foreign sources of oil and gas

Ouch Chinese Byrne

If Germany need a bailout then we should bail them out.

brickster69

The circus is run by the clowns.

https://twitter.com/FirstSquawk/status/1551839439043047425

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387905#Comment_119387905

You have a point about your description of the bailout but it involved Irish scam artists / developers too.

I have to disagree about letting Germany freeze. The only beneficiary of that is the deranged imperialist Putin and that endangers all of Eastern Europe and Germany too.

Thelonious Monk

It might be the kick up the arse Europe needs to get off Russian gas. There may be hardship involved alright, but hardship used to be part and parcel of life, especially in times not too long ago in Germany. I'm sure they'll be fine.

Ouch Chinese Byrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387905#Comment_119387905

The banks should have asset stripped the Irish public who couldn’t or refused to pay back loans/ mortgages arrears.

Unfortunately these bailouts caused these people to keep their assets with no consequences even though it was printed in black and white in their contracts.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388108#Comment_119388108

Back in the early 2000's companies like Mainstream had conversations with Europe about a supergrid connecting everyone and using Solar/Wind/other renewable

This would move Europe off the total reliance on gas etc. This of course was all discussed and never introduced, so you have Spain now with too much solar power and cutting off people who have invested million in solar etc, yet Germany and France are struggling for power.

EOQRTL

Oh, what a shame.

And now here's Bob with the sports.....

brickster69

It is not so much about Germans freezing it is about stopping German industry totally collapsing.

One example - On it's own the automobile industry uses 37% of Germany's Russian gas imports at full flow. Now add in steel, ceramics, chemicals, glass and everything else on top. What happens if Russian gas is turned off for a month, they have to use the storage or close.

When they announced the cancellation of Nordstream 2 it might turn out to be the biggest own goal in history. Why the **** did they agree to do that ?

Thelonious Monk

To be fair, to paraphrase Basil Faulty, Russia started it, they invaded Ukraine! Industry is reliant on it too and signs are we could be facing another recession down the tracks so probably wont be a good few years for Europe in general.

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387880#Comment_119387880

• Wind and solar have been able to scale because of coal i.e. China, and the local incentives provided.
• Irelands hydro options are already tapped out (4% generation)
• Wave energy schemes have all failed, there are no viable projects or anything that can be run at scale in the pipeline.
• Biogas from methane digesters - have you considered how to organise farming animals and farm operations so this can be done economically?

As regards German influence on Ireland, it is substantial.

1. Britain has gone, Germany de facto runs the EU. They are pushing the EUs Green new deal.
2. Irish Green party doctrine originates from the German Alliance 90/The Greens
3. Potsdam institute for climate impact research influences Irish universities, even the climate quango.
4. The Irish political establishment has their eye on the Green new deal money and is shaping climate legislation around that.

Danzy

Germany ran down its energy sources in favour of Russian gas, against all logic.

It placed a hostile dictatorship in near complete control of its energy policy.

No doubt Merkel and others were well rewarded for it but Germany must resolve this itself.

It is self inflicted, unfortunately it will effect us all to some degree and while Germany deserve a very cold winter, it will cost us all.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388183#Comment_119388183

A mix of corruption, greed, treachery.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388183#Comment_119388183

The German government didn't seem to have much of a problem loading debt onto taxpayers in order to save their own bad investments. So while the funds did come, solidarity gas should come with a hefty premium.

If other more energy prudent countries EU countries have to cut back their energy usage in order to save Germany's skin, well those savings should be charged, with an appropriate markup, to the German government - in order that they "learn their lesson".

Solidarity didn't come cheap for Ireland, nor should it be for Germany.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388208#Comment_119388208

Hydro not "tapped out" according to this map. Would need proper survey done to confirm https://www.seai.ie/technologies/seai-maps/hydro-power-map/

Wave schemes have not failed. They just haven't invested because it was easier to building another gas plant

In terms of methane, Bord Gais said it was huge potential and just hasn't been explored. In terms of organisation of framing animals, we are on the way into a winter when 90%+ of animals will be standing in sheds.

People are so quick to dump renewable technology because it is easier to just build another gas plant.The only way to increase renewable technology is to invest in it and make a European advancement across all countries. Ireland has excellent wind power etc

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388109#Comment_119388109

The public paid back their money or lost their house, that wasn't what caused the crisis.

The borrowings of about 70 developers did

Ouch Chinese Byrne

Germany will be bailout and rightly so.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388252#Comment_119388252

They have a history of global record defaults and bailouts..

That has to change.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388234#Comment_119388234

Stop spreading this misinformation. You have been called up on this several times in several threads.

Wave power is not commercially viable. All wave power projects to date culminated in the project Company declaring bankruptcy and folding, or the project being deemed simply not viable. The corrosive nature of both sea water and the explosive power of storm waves is one main factor, but there are a multitude. It is not an option.

As for small scale hydro, most of those sites can generate at most in the low MWhs per year if not lower. Not to mention the massive environmental impacts of such facilities - damming rivers is of massive ecological consequence.

As for methane from cows, well lol. This is an often proposed one by people who have no idea what they are talking about. How do you propose harvesting this methane?

Ouch Chinese Byrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388262#Comment_119388262

When was the last time Germany defaulted on its debts

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388294#Comment_119388294

and this thread descends in the same waffle that is on the Green policies thread 🤦‍♂️

Which is still discussing "what happens when the wind stops" after what? 6, 12 months now?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388305#Comment_119388305

They're actually just pointless discussions at this stage, the same stuff going around in circles over and over. Farmers/Rural people against any green transition or measures and sticking with how things are because India China etc., and the other side thinking maybe we should do things differently as this isn't going to end well. Round and round we go.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388344#Comment_119388344

Nothing to do with farmers etc, that poster has consistently espoused wave power and hydro as the solution to Irelands problems despite wave being non-viable worldwide (not a grid scale solution) and hydro yield is miniscule compared to demand on our grid. Ardnacrusha generates 2% of annual grid demand, and thats on the largest river by flow in the country. Any other small scale hydro schemes would be pitiful in comparison, and would end up causing huge environmental devastation. Ardnacrusha itself devastated salmon and eel stocks in the Shannon, and thats with a separate canal. Any small scale hydro schemes would likely be worse.

Hydro is great where it works, The Alps, Norway. Scotland. We simply arent suited for it in our country, Ireland is a very flat country.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388344#Comment_119388344

We are where we are so its a bit irrelevant to this discussion which is more about how we should react if the gas runs low in Germany this winter.

Though should we have to suffer blackouts and gas rationing if there are mothballed coal and nuclear plants in Germany?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388386#Comment_119388386

Don't we get all our gas from the UK? Why would this affect us? And if the UK decide to help Germany out which means less gas for us, I'm sure we'll manage.

Fred Cryton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387670#Comment_119387670

Wrong. They helped us by giving a near bankrupt country (Ireland) a loan due to stupid domestic policy decisions and poor regulation by the Irish in Ireland.

Also why is this thread all about Germany? There are literally a dozen or more central European nations heavily reliant on Russian gas, most to a larger extent than Germany.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388295#Comment_119388295

Early 1930s and late 1940s, both were record setting global events.

It then received the largest bailout in history with incredibly favourable trade terms.

One could argue that the early interest rates cuts for the ECB were purely to suit Germany, it did not suit the rest of the Eurozone.

It's really messed up now though. Hopefully it will not sink the wider European economy with it.

Merkel and Putin will be delighted.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388415#Comment_119388415

No, we get 40% our gas from corrib and the remainder from the North sea.

The proposal was for 15% reductions no matter if you were isolated from the continental network or not as if all of Europe cuts its use it could depress prices as well as easing availability pressure - making it cheaper for some countries to fill their gas reservoirs.

The consequence of 15% cut backs on gas is likely rolling power cuts here if it's not windy or too windy. So while we would manage and muddle through, it would be extremely costly for both the country and the individual. This would happen even though gas was available.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388461#Comment_119388461

Why would we need rolling black out?

If we move people back to WFH and shut down large office spaces/heating/cooling them etc that would take a significant reduction etc...

Plenty of items can be done to reduce power without just saying rolling blackouts are required

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388461#Comment_119388461

I think anyone who thinks the coming decades are going to be business as usual haven't been keeping up with what's going on around us. Everything will be more expensive and more scarce, the peak of the mass consumerist having anything whenever you want times with no consequences is probably coming to an end. If we all have to use a little less power than so be it.

Subzero3

Back to the old days of burning everything for heat.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388183#Comment_119388183

Why? Germans won't listen when they were told it was a bad idea.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388474#Comment_119388474

Those kinds of measures sadly don't save energy, they just change where it's consumed, from office to home.

The question though is why should Irish citizens be asked to make such sacrifices? Our gas supply isn't threatened, it's mostly Germany's.

When Ireland needed European solidarity (granted through a crisis of its own making) it was charged an extortionate rate of interest. Now Germany faces a crisis of its own making by becoming absolutely dependent for its energy on a foreign adversarial power, even though it was warned several times not to - yet it looks like other European citizens are going to be asked to dig deep and give them their energy bailout for free.

They should be made pay through the nose for the gas that they'll have access to through foregone consumption, just like we were made to pay through the nose for our bailout.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388509#Comment_119388509

The whole point of smart meters. In reality smart meters will be making users aware of the cost per minute and pushing people to reduce power usage is possible.

The days of burning electricity and no conservation is gone now, people are going to be pushed more & more to stop wasting electricity