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Are Irish people on average to the left of English people??

  • 19-07-2022 3:00pm
    Registered Users Posts: 26

    Is the Irish electorate more open to socialism, more concerned about the poor and opportunity than the majority Tory English electorate? Or is this idealism on my part, given I lean to the left.



  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Everlong1

    Absolutely not. Paddy doesn't do ideology. He doesn't care which party his TD is from as long the TD in question agrees to try and pull strings to get him his medical card/council house for his pregnant daughter/planning permission/whatever you're having yourself.

    Probably not as relevant nowadays, but older voters would also have been terrified against voting for the Left because the priests and bishops would have condemned them as godless Commies.

  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Everlong1

    You also have to remember that the poor Brits don't have PR so it's a fairly stark choice for them between Tory scum and leftie nutbars, or else the middle of the road joys of the Lib Dems. Paddy can vote for every party in Ireland from raving fascists to Reds under the bed secure in the knowledge that every one of his votes counts.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,201 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl

    I think its hard to tell given our political framework for the last 70 years. Even now, SF are not really classically "left" in many ways. Suspect we might move more towards a more traditional framework of parties over the next decade or so and maybe we can judge more easily then.

    We certainly don't have any (large) party as extreme as the Conservatives, but that is partly a function of the FPTP system in the UK.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,437 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld

    We vote for the stick the heads in the sand, kick the can down the road and pump the national debt party.

    I can't imagine we will be an independent nation in 50 years time and we'll blame it on everything except ourselves.

    Everything is up for grabs in the country. And we'll sell our children out rather than fix the housing crisis etc etc

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Are Irish people on average to the left of English people??

    Yes, but when using a map or a globe, we use the term "West" instead of left. 🤡

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭sprucemoose

    except the many, many people who will vote purely on a party basis - the 'we're a fianna fail etc, family and we've always been' types

  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Everlong1

    Just as dim - if not more so - as the ones who vote for their local TD because he might be able to magically "get them something".

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭amacca

    But in all fairness who does one vote for? the odd independent that will be able to achieve .....f all (in the majority of cases)

    FF disasters

    FG disasters

    Labour disasters and not really Labour at all....

    Sinn Fein....highly likely to be disasters 99.999999999999999999% likely imo ....and maybe even more disastrous than the gombeens we've had so far

    Greens moronic ideologue disasters....that won't solve any climate problem again I feel 99.999999999999% certain of that given their track record and latest utterances i think they will be the cause of more CO2 production....they might succeed in increasing divisions and being useful idiot cheerleaders of policies that will diminish our agri food industry and leave us importing more food from the slash n burn merchants etc......

    It's slim pickings..........maybe you can't blame the lad/lady voting for entirely selfish reasons ... even though most must know in their heart of hearts what they are voting for....

    If there was a benchmark/way to measure performance.....metrics....a scientific report card for our elected managers .... then perhaps more voters would be discerning in terms of the long term

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,147 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure

    yeah, by a couple hundred miles

  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Everlong1

    It's a case of the least worst option. I'm in my 50's. In my lifetime FF have bankrupted the country, not once but twice - first time being in the late 70's/early 80's. Took us a decade to recover, then we had the boom, then the crash of 2008, which was caused to an extent by outside forces but made far worse in Ireland by FF policy of throwing money at everyone to buy votes (exact same policy caused the 70's/80's recession). Plus they set the benchmark for corruption and shyster politics. After each FF disaster, FG have come in and had to pick up the pieces. Both times they did a fairly good job of it and set the country right again economically. I've seen FG make hard decisions over the years that cost them votes, something FF would never do - they'll always put party before country. In the late 70's and early 80's, FG were the progressive party on social issues while FF sided again and again with the child rapists in the Church. On that basis I've consistently voted FG on the basis that they can generally be trusted with the economy while FF can be trusted to wreck it just to stay in power. And I don't agree with your assessment of the Greens. I think the current situation, where they have power but limited power, is good. They've invested heavily in walking and cycling infrastructure which is good for sustainable travel and health. The dominance of the car has to be tackled. Obviously we need cars but there are far too many people who won't even think about any other option, even for short journeys. That has to change. Quite apart from the climate crisis, our major cities have been gridlocked for years. That simply can't go on and we need a political party who are prepared to face down the motor lobby and others. Not saying either FG or Greens are perfect of course, but until someone forms a decent centre right alternative they're probably the best we're going to get.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,031 ✭✭✭✭Geuze

    I see your point here, and I accept it, to a certain degree.

    However, here is an academic article finding that Irish voters have moved left:

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭amacca

    So FG + Greens

    .....hmm, recent times when they took over wasn't it nearly a case of the only way is up?

    Haven't they managed to completely make a total balls of housing in this country with every initiative seemingly tailor made to inflate prices.......

    Now if it was solely FF we would probably have crashed and burned long ago so I suppose there is that maybe I have to concede there...perhaps they are the least worst option but imo its a fine fine margin......FG seem quite capable of dubious decisions and corruption too.

    As for the greens, it's Greens for the southside of Dublin afaic........just transition my hole......I can't see anything in the line of joined up thinking in their policies or actions.......overindulged zealots.....I'd be onboard with a green party if they showed signs of intelligence and fairness in their actions....I don't know how the majority view bicycle lanes in Dublin that have to live with them but I do know how ill thought out and unjust their plans for agriculture are so far......

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,030 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha

    The English have an undemocratic and unrepresentative voting system that makes this question all but impossible to answer since it forces most people to vote for the lesser of two evils instead of voting for what they want.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,329 ✭✭✭beggars_bush

    Paddy just doesn't like paying taxes and then gives out when the state cannot provide adequate services- health, education, housing

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,256 ✭✭✭✭jm08

    I think a bit more of the credit should go to Labour who were a moderating influence on FG. Ruairi Quinn was one of the best Ministers for Finance that we have and it was he who steered Ireland out of the 80/90s recessions in the John Bruton Government for Charlie McCreavy/Fianna Fail to undo all his good work.

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,706 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore

    The Left is fcuked here, splinter groups splintering who can't agree on sh1t. They only appeal to 'working' class and students and people who don't want to pay for anything.

    SF (not proper Left) eating Labour's dinner.

    No-one seems to know what Labour stands for now, absolutely beige leader with pre-prepared waffle.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,256 ✭✭✭✭jm08

    I agree with you. It wasn't too long ago that the Greens were promoting people to use diesel cars. I think they are an urban party and are really clueless when it comes to rural areas.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,285 ✭✭✭✭zell12

    We have a seriously fair representative voting system - the Dáil actually accurately represent us as a people, from the Healy Raes to the Lowrys to the Grealishes.

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,013 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump

    Yeah definitely. Have you never seen a map?

  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Everlong1

    Agree 100% and I should have mentioned them. I would have voted consistently for them over the years, in fact in my younger days when I would have been more sympathetic to the Left I would have consistently given them my number 1 vote and FG no 2.

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell

    The problems the Greens have is that the Green agenda is basically trying to get the message across that current life style and consumption trends are causing global climate change (have already caused). That message is a very hard sell.

    To cause climate to regress to more sustainable patterns requires a reduction of consumption and a return to a more limited lifestyle. This requires a reduction in travel (like less cars, and fewer air trips), a reduction of energy usage, a greater use of public transport, and a reduction of food-miles.

    The mistake with diesel was that it reduced CO2, but increased other nasties. The new mistake is to promote electric vehicles as a solution, when the correct answer is less private vehicles, and more PT, and more cycling and walking. Who is going to give up the convenience of their own car? That is also a hard sell.

    This Green agenda, as a basis of public policy, is hugely unpopular. The most unpopular elements would be the effect of the individual's choice, and, more importantly, the threat to an individuals income. Farm organisations are currently campaigning against the prospect of reductions in carbon emissions while getting huge subsidies from the CAP. A significant number of farming enterprises would be uneconomic without these subsidies - particularly suckler beef production. The removal of 25% to 50% of these producers would be no loss to them (if they got the subsidy anyway), and would benefit the rest as far as emissions would be concerned.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,988 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious

    People always say that other people should vote for candidates based on national issues rather than local issues.

    But the problem is there is never enough national policy to go around.

    Not every TD can be at the forefront of some great legislation to tackle this that or the other.

    And just supporting government policy doesn't make you stand out from anyone else that is getting whipped into the same lobby for the vote.

    So TDs have to rely on local issues and individual issues to be able to help their constituents and be relevant.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell

    As they say, the greatest threat to a TD retaining the seat warmed since the last election is the party comrade competing for the same votes.

    If there is a quota and a half between two of them, vote managing the party vote might get two seats, but might also get them none. Hence the dog-fight for votes by local action on local issues (and parish pump politics).

  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Everlong1

    Fair point. I think someone once suggested that we should have a two tier system where a certain number of TDs concentrated on national issues and the rest on the parish pump.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,954 ✭✭✭✭

    I think Ireland and the UK have relatively similar income taxation rates.

    We followed the Thatcher model to reduce taxes.

    Britain, unlike Ireland, has universal healthcare and allowed for abortion as far back as the 1960s!

    So part of the UK are more left wing than here.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell

    We do have a two tier system for politicians - TDs and Senators.

    TDs have constituency that gives them a backyard to protect, while Senators do not and have only national issues to concentrate on.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭20silkcut

    You are basically advocating a removal of a whole way of life for huge swathes of this country in saying that unprofitable beef farmers should just pack it in. It’s not all about profit. Thankfully the CAP recognises that. Thankfully the Irish electorate or any particular electorate can not do anything about the CAP. Good luck trying to get a pan European political movement to abolish it or cut it back as you suggest. The English railed against it for years.

  • Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭babyducklings1

    It’s not left or right in England they’ll just say it straight out, whatever they are thinking whereas we’re more ifs and buts and roundabouts.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell

    I am only suggesting that those farmers who do not make a profit with suckler herds exit the business, but retain their CAP subsidies. They can adapt to a different enterprise like horticulture through a polytunnel or go for some forestry perhaps - the forestry carries grants which might interest them.

    Most farmers that are not making profits from suckler herds are generally part-time or elderly. In both cases, giving up sucklers for some other enterprise would not be that life changing. How many farmers grow potatoes or vegetables - even for their own consumption? A few generations ago, every farmer would be self sufficient in milk, potatoes, eggs, and vegetables - not so anymore. Even dairy farmers now buy their milk in the supermarket. The same goes for bread - soda bread, the mainstay for many, is a thing of the past now for so many, and probably most, and the sliced pan is the only man.

    In the fifties, most farms were mixed - that is some dairy, some pigs, chickens, potatoes, vegetables, winter fodder, etc. Now it is basically monoculture. Not good that farming has gone the way it has for any future if climate change takes effect.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭20silkcut

    I fully agree with you about mixed farming enterprise . I lay the blame for a lot of the lack of diversity at the door of agencies like teagasc and some of the big co-ops and government policy as well. ( the sugar beet fiasco was almost criminal) An awful lot of knowledge and skill has died off and is currently dying off in the generation of farmer who had more mixed enterprises 40-50 years ago. There was mild panic among the farming community at the prospect of compulsory tillage earlier on in the year. Many farmers around me would woefully badly set up ( myself included) to entertain such a notion but it’s a reality that is not gone away yet.