Are Irish people on average to the left of English people??

Investigative reports

Is the Irish electorate more open to socialism, more concerned about the poor and opportunity than the majority Tory English electorate? Or is this idealism on my part, given I lean to the left.

Everlong1

Absolutely not. Paddy doesn't do ideology. He doesn't care which party his TD is from as long the TD in question agrees to try and pull strings to get him his medical card/council house for his pregnant daughter/planning permission/whatever you're having yourself.

Probably not as relevant nowadays, but older voters would also have been terrified against voting for the Left because the priests and bishops would have condemned them as godless Commies.

Everlong1

You also have to remember that the poor Brits don't have PR so it's a fairly stark choice for them between Tory scum and leftie nutbars, or else the middle of the road joys of the Lib Dems. Paddy can vote for every party in Ireland from raving fascists to Reds under the bed secure in the knowledge that every one of his votes counts.

Podge_irl

I think its hard to tell given our political framework for the last 70 years. Even now, SF are not really classically "left" in many ways. Suspect we might move more towards a more traditional framework of parties over the next decade or so and maybe we can judge more easily then.

We certainly don't have any (large) party as extreme as the Conservatives, but that is partly a function of the FPTP system in the UK.

SuperBowserWorld

We vote for the stick the heads in the sand, kick the can down the road and pump the national debt party.

I can't imagine we will be an independent nation in 50 years time and we'll blame it on everything except ourselves.

Everything is up for grabs in the country. And we'll sell our children out rather than fix the housing crisis etc etc

Are Irish people on average to the left of English people??

Yes, but when using a map or a globe, we use the term "West" instead of left. 🤡

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359521#Comment_119359521

except the many, many people who will vote purely on a party basis - the 'we're a fianna fail etc, family and we've always been' types

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359854#Comment_119359854

Just as dim - if not more so - as the ones who vote for their local TD because he might be able to magically "get them something".

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360506#Comment_119360506

But in all fairness who does one vote for?...bar the odd independent that will be able to achieve .....f all (in the majority of cases)

FF disasters

FG disasters

Labour disasters and not really Labour at all....

Sinn Fein....highly likely to be disasters 99.999999999999999999% likely imo ....and maybe even more disastrous than the gombeens we've had so far

Greens moronic ideologue disasters....that won't solve any climate problem again I feel 99.999999999999% certain of that given their track record and latest utterances i think they will be the cause of more CO2 production....they might succeed in increasing divisions and being useful idiot cheerleaders of policies that will diminish our agri food industry and leave us importing more food from the slash n burn merchants etc......

It's slim pickings..........maybe you can't blame the lad/lady voting for entirely selfish reasons ... even though most must know in their heart of hearts what they are voting for....

If there was a benchmark/way to measure performance.....metrics....a scientific report card for our elected managers .... then perhaps more voters would be discerning in terms of the long term

Quantum Erasure

yeah, by a couple hundred miles

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361341#Comment_119361341

It's a case of the least worst option. I'm in my 50's. In my lifetime FF have bankrupted the country, not once but twice - first time being in the late 70's/early 80's. Took us a decade to recover, then we had the boom, then the crash of 2008, which was caused to an extent by outside forces but made far worse in Ireland by FF policy of throwing money at everyone to buy votes (exact same policy caused the 70's/80's recession). Plus they set the benchmark for corruption and shyster politics. After each FF disaster, FG have come in and had to pick up the pieces. Both times they did a fairly good job of it and set the country right again economically. I've seen FG make hard decisions over the years that cost them votes, something FF would never do - they'll always put party before country. In the late 70's and early 80's, FG were the progressive party on social issues while FF sided again and again with the child rapists in the Church. On that basis I've consistently voted FG on the basis that they can generally be trusted with the economy while FF can be trusted to wreck it just to stay in power. And I don't agree with your assessment of the Greens. I think the current situation, where they have power but limited power, is good. They've invested heavily in walking and cycling infrastructure which is good for sustainable travel and health. The dominance of the car has to be tackled. Obviously we need cars but there are far too many people who won't even think about any other option, even for short journeys. That has to change. Quite apart from the climate crisis, our major cities have been gridlocked for years. That simply can't go on and we need a political party who are prepared to face down the motor lobby and others. Not saying either FG or Greens are perfect of course, but until someone forms a decent centre right alternative they're probably the best we're going to get.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359521#Comment_119359521

I see your point here, and I accept it, to a certain degree.

However, here is an academic article finding that Irish voters have moved left:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07907184.2021.1973737

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361441#Comment_119361441

So FG + Greens

.....hmm, hmmmm.....in recent times when they took over wasn't it nearly a case of the only way is up?

Haven't they managed to completely make a total balls of housing in this country with every initiative seemingly tailor made to inflate prices.......

Now if it was solely FF we would probably have crashed and burned long ago so I suppose there is that ..so maybe I have to concede there...perhaps they are the least worst option but imo its a fine fine margin......FG seem quite capable of dubious decisions and corruption too.

As for the greens, it's Greens for the southside of Dublin afaic........just transition my hole......I can't see anything in the line of joined up thinking in their policies or actions.......overindulged zealots.....I'd be onboard with a green party if they showed signs of intelligence and fairness in their actions....I don't know how the majority view bicycle lanes in Dublin that have to live with them but I do know how ill thought out and unjust their plans for agriculture are so far......

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058255185/are-irish-people-on-average-to-the-left-of-english-people

The English have an undemocratic and unrepresentative voting system that makes this question all but impossible to answer since it forces most people to vote for the lesser of two evils instead of voting for what they want.

beggars_bush

Paddy just doesn't like paying taxes and then gives out when the state cannot provide adequate services- health, education, housing

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361441#Comment_119361441

I think a bit more of the credit should go to Labour who were a moderating influence on FG. Ruairi Quinn was one of the best Ministers for Finance that we have and it was he who steered Ireland out of the 80/90s recessions in the John Bruton Government for Charlie McCreavy/Fianna Fail to undo all his good work.

whisky_galore

The Left is fcuked here, splinter groups splintering who can't agree on sh1t. They only appeal to 'working' class and students and people who don't want to pay for anything.

SF (not proper Left) eating Labour's dinner.

No-one seems to know what Labour stands for now, absolutely beige leader with pre-prepared waffle.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361550#Comment_119361550

I agree with you. It wasn't too long ago that the Greens were promoting people to use diesel cars. I think they are an urban party and are really clueless when it comes to rural areas.

zell12

We have a seriously fair representative voting system - the Dáil actually accurately represent us as a people, from the Healy Raes to the Lowrys to the Grealishes.

Donald Trump

Yeah definitely. Have you never seen a map?

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362395#Comment_119362395

Agree 100% and I should have mentioned them. I would have voted consistently for them over the years, in fact in my younger days when I would have been more sympathetic to the Left I would have consistently given them my number 1 vote and FG no 2.

Sam Russell

The problems the Greens have is that the Green agenda is basically trying to get the message across that current life style and consumption trends are causing global climate change (have already caused). That message is a very hard sell.

To cause climate to regress to more sustainable patterns requires a reduction of consumption and a return to a more limited lifestyle. This requires a reduction in travel (like less cars, and fewer air trips), a reduction of energy usage, a greater use of public transport, and a reduction of food-miles.

The mistake with diesel was that it reduced CO2, but increased other nasties. The new mistake is to promote electric vehicles as a solution, when the correct answer is less private vehicles, and more PT, and more cycling and walking. Who is going to give up the convenience of their own car? That is also a hard sell.

This Green agenda, as a basis of public policy, is hugely unpopular. The most unpopular elements would be the effect of the individual's choice, and, more importantly, the threat to an individuals income. Farm organisations are currently campaigning against the prospect of reductions in carbon emissions while getting huge subsidies from the CAP. A significant number of farming enterprises would be uneconomic without these subsidies - particularly suckler beef production. The removal of 25% to 50% of these producers would be no loss to them (if they got the subsidy anyway), and would benefit the rest as far as emissions would be concerned.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360506#Comment_119360506

People always say that other people should vote for candidates based on national issues rather than local issues.

But the problem is there is never enough national policy to go around.

Not every TD can be at the forefront of some great legislation to tackle this that or the other.

And just supporting government policy doesn't make you stand out from anyone else that is getting whipped into the same lobby for the vote.

So TDs have to rely on local issues and individual issues to be able to help their constituents and be relevant.

Sam Russell

As they say, the greatest threat to a TD retaining the seat warmed since the last election is the party comrade competing for the same votes.

If there is a quota and a half between two of them, vote managing the party vote might get two seats, but might also get them none. Hence the dog-fight for votes by local action on local issues (and parish pump politics).

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362960#Comment_119362960

Fair point. I think someone once suggested that we should have a two tier system where a certain number of TDs concentrated on national issues and the rest on the parish pump.

hotmail.com

I think Ireland and the UK have relatively similar income taxation rates.

We followed the Thatcher model to reduce taxes.

Britain, unlike Ireland, has universal healthcare and allowed for abortion as far back as the 1960s!

So part of the UK are more left wing than here.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365133#Comment_119365133

We do have a two tier system for politicians - TDs and Senators.

TDs have constituency that gives them a backyard to protect, while Senators do not and have only national issues to concentrate on.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362581#Comment_119362581

You are basically advocating a removal of a whole way of life for huge swathes of this country in saying that unprofitable beef farmers should just pack it in. It’s not all about profit. Thankfully the CAP recognises that. Thankfully the Irish electorate or any particular electorate can not do anything about the CAP. Good luck trying to get a pan European political movement to abolish it or cut it back as you suggest. The English railed against it for years.

babyducklings1

It’s not left or right in England they’ll just say it straight out, whatever they are thinking whereas we’re more ifs and buts and roundabouts.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365959#Comment_119365959

I am only suggesting that those farmers who do not make a profit with suckler herds exit the business, but retain their CAP subsidies. They can adapt to a different enterprise like horticulture through a polytunnel or go for some forestry perhaps - the forestry carries grants which might interest them.

Most farmers that are not making profits from suckler herds are generally part-time or elderly. In both cases, giving up sucklers for some other enterprise would not be that life changing. How many farmers grow potatoes or vegetables - even for their own consumption? A few generations ago, every farmer would be self sufficient in milk, potatoes, eggs, and vegetables - not so anymore. Even dairy farmers now buy their milk in the supermarket. The same goes for bread - soda bread, the mainstay for many, is a thing of the past now for so many, and probably most, and the sliced pan is the only man.

In the fifties, most farms were mixed - that is some dairy, some pigs, chickens, potatoes, vegetables, winter fodder, etc. Now it is basically monoculture. Not good that farming has gone the way it has for any future if climate change takes effect.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119367658#Comment_119367658

I fully agree with you about mixed farming enterprise . I lay the blame for a lot of the lack of diversity at the door of agencies like teagasc and some of the big co-ops and government policy as well. ( the sugar beet fiasco was almost criminal) An awful lot of knowledge and skill has died off and is currently dying off in the generation of farmer who had more mixed enterprises 40-50 years ago. There was mild panic among the farming community at the prospect of compulsory tillage earlier on in the year. Many farmers around me would woefully badly set up ( myself included) to entertain such a notion but it’s a reality that is not gone away yet.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119370180#Comment_119370180

There's an industry of pen pushers now that for every sector in farming. If you have a mixed farm you will be tortured with jobsworths out inspecting and reports to be filled etc. The price of machinery now makes it very expensive to go at a few different strands of farming.

I think rte sets the tone for the country and rte are run by unions, government are always under pressure to spend more and generally do. Think we owe 250 billion now and are the third most indebted country in the developed world. Our vote buying days are drawing to a halt ( at least temporarily!) in the next 6 months methinks.

Sam Russell

I would blame the supermarkets that have wiped out the rural convenience shops and reduced them to supplying the 'emergency shop'. How can they be profitable while competing with the major supermarkets with their supply chain dominance, market muscle, and below cost offers?

Farmers do (and never have) been their own best friends. The Tuam Potato factory closed because the price of potatoes on the open market rose above the contract supply price and the farmers sold on the market. The potato factory closed soon after. Chasing the quick profit (by a minority) has led to such things.

Are Irish people on average to the left of English people??

That depends on the exact location and position of everybody.....

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563871#Comment_119563871

im gonna presume overall, there'll be more people facing the sun (ie. South) than facing away, (even if we weigh the evening sun a whole lot more than the morning sun, given that the average irish person would be north west -ish of the average english person...) that Irish people are, on average, to the RIGHT of English people

completedit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366147#Comment_119366147

Ah yeah the English well known for their directness.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362581#Comment_119362581

Other part of the Green party problem is that the sustainable way of living (more dense housing & apartments in cities, more village nucleuses & fewer one off housing in the countryside) is very much against "the order of things" in Ireland.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569739#Comment_119569739

Well, one-off housing costs a lot in service provision, the need for vehicles for transport and resulting lack of public transport. The supermarkets have killed all the local shops - 90% of shopping supply is through five supermarkets - Dunnes, Tesco, Musgraves, Lidl, and Aldi. They compete with each other (after a fashion - price matching and meaningless special offers).

There is significant centralising of services - water, broadband, electricity, schools, hospitals, etc. Post Offices (because the business is not there as people go shopping in the big towns and use that PO) are forced to close.

Even if housing was concentrated on the towns and villages, it would be better. One-off houses are generally built on sites donated by daddy or mammy and the house self built, like all those houses in Donegall with mica problems.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362375#Comment_119362375

Paddy wouldn’t mind paying taxes if they were getting quality services for their tax investment.

Paddy wouldn’t mind paying taxes if they had a say as to how taxes are spent.

Paddy wouldn’t mind paying taxes if not so much of it was fecked away on the needs and wants and comforts of others..

we are most certainly to the left of the English people, for how long ? As Rom Massey says.. ‘ remains to be seen ‘

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570579#Comment_119570579

I fully agree with the Green party position in this: dense cities & thriving towns support good public transport, walkable & cyclable towns & cities & more effective public services (parks, playgrounds, swimming pools, community centres etc) - it is far more pleasant, a more sustainable way to live & more suitable for lifetime housing etc. (& The standard way of doing things in most of Europe) - it's just that many Irish people strongly disagree.

hotmail.com

Conservative elements run deep in Ireland.. closing clubs at 2.30 is madness for a modern country, no rail link to our main airport, most schools owned by the Catholic Church, abortion only legalised 4 years ago, attitudes to gay people softening much later than the UK etc etc.

Whilst Ireland has made many improvements, we've still a long way to go to catch up with the UK.

Sam Russell

I think the Irish people do not fit into the European political classification of right vs left. Perhaps more right vs wrong.

Because of a STV multi seat voting system, the rogue TD gets elected - whether rogue within the party, or rogue party, or rogue independent. And the we get rogues elected who should be imprisoned.

We have a more blended politics, where the major parties that have been in Gov since the foundation of the state have been broad parties with philosophies that overlap - and actually follow the broad public views. Those views have broadly morphed to the left over the last 50 years, and the politics have followed those broader views.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119572849#Comment_119572849

Yeah let's just say it. Ireland is perfect!

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573153#Comment_119573153

Ireland is far from perfect.

We have had monumental missteps over the last 100 years of the state's existence. But we have got a few things spectacularly right.

We have had some major scandals that have cost us dear. We have an appalling record of providing infrastructure. Our planning system is very slow and open to significant levels of corruption. Our banking system has let us down badly - not just in 2008, but throughout the last 100 years. They failed to support the nascent state when it needed credit desperately, and has hardly been a friend to the nation.

We are beginning to shake off the last effects of the subservience to the Catholic church which was built into the 1936 constitution where we allowed it to take control of our health system and the education of most of our children. There is still a way to go on this.

But, we are no longer dirt poor. We have an international reputation that is far from bad, with a place on the UN Security Council - for the third time.

We have climbed from being a net recipient of EU funds because we were 60% average income of the EU when we joined - to currently being a net contributor.

Thanks to T. K. Whitaker's approach, we looked out on the world with a broad welcome, rather than DE Valera's myopic inward vision of unhelpful self sufficiency. It is thanks to the inward investment of USA corporations, among others, that has allowed this. They benefited, but so did we.

I think we have done well for ourselves as a nation, and look forward to us continuing to do well. Let us hope we continue see to the world in 'Right vs Wrong, rather than Right vs Left'.

ELM327

I don't think the irish people are, but I think our representatives are. This is 100% a function of PR vs FPTP

paul71

I honestly think we are more to the center then to either right or left. In the UK a center does not exist and perhaps that is a result of FPTP.

mazdamiatamx5

On average, Irish people are to the left of the English, due to being better educated, less influenced by the far right foreign owned media that controls most of the UK media, and our history of colonisation and subjugation.

By international standards, the Irish electorate does not lean particularly left wing, voting mainly for centrist capitalist parties of various types - FF, FG, SF and so on.

growleaves

@Sam Russell 'Thanks to T. K. Whitaker's approach, we looked out on the world with a broad welcome, rather than DE Valera's myopic inward vision of unhelpful self sufficiency.'

I think it was insightful and creative at the time but, over sixty years later, we are still mostly dependent on foreign-based and owned industries and foreign investment. So apparently we are relying on this to serve as a permanent policy despite the real risk that it may only be temporary?

Should we not be using the dividend from a wealthy society to somehow create and build up parallel industries and infrastructure?

Germany has native machine-building, automobile, electrical engineering and electronics, chemical, and food processing industries.

Sam Russell

When Ireland opened up to foreign inward investment, we had low levels of third level education and not that high with second level - with most children leaving school with no qualifications at all. As a result of free second level education and significant increase in university take up, we are a target for FDI.

Most managers in these companies are Irish educated and trained. Many were trained by the foreign employer. This has given rise to many Irish led companies springing up and creating businesses providing local employment.

Foreign investment is not new. Ford and Dunlop established a long time ago in Cork.

saabsaab

I'd say that all irish parties are left of centre even FG.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816651#Comment_119816651

What's your basis for this?