Guilty of manslaughter of Waterford fisherman

Sandor Clegane

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2022/0713/1310047-dean-kerrie-court/

So now it seems you can't defend yourself from an intruder who has just smashed your window with a rock and then enters your property...I mean I'm struggling to understand this result, one stab wound to a man who has just broken into your house violently is not excessive, if anything it's lenient.

Another quote from the article is astonishing, Jury must consider if kerrie "honestly believed that Mr Power had entered his home as a trespasser intending to commit a criminal act"...I mean what the **** else was he doing? last I heard you don't smash a persons window with a rock then enter their house just to say a friendly hello!

Am I missing something here or is this just an outrageous miscarriage of justice?

Boggles

Was this case not on months ago and Jury failed to reach a conclusion?

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333150#Comment_119333150

Yep, same case.

I'm surprised with the verdict to be honest.

kirk.

Seems a strange one

Sandor Clegane

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they passed a self defense law years ago...stating you could use reasonable force while defending your home, property, family etc...from what I've read on this case there was nothing unreasonable about what the guy did, a single stab wound to a man who broke your window with a rock and then entered your home without permission is not unreasonable.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333309#Comment_119333309

You can use reasonable force to defend yourself, not your house.

Knives are for buttering bread and chopping vegetables, not stabbing people who break into your house.

Overheal

I wonder if you could appeal that, since the judge instructed the jury the only had a few limited verdicts to pick - and he reportedly never instructed them on their option (assuming Ireland has it) to return a Null Verdict. Basically deciding that the law that applies to the case is bullshit or being applied in a bullshit way - in this case to prosecute someone for manslaughter because of the size of their self defence weapon during a home invasion. Yet a kitchen chef knife is no larger or more deadly than a dagger, what you'd regard as the practical minimum for a bladed defense weapon outside of concealed or throwing knives. The courts instructions seem effed.

Sandor Clegane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333325#Comment_119333325

Well he was defending himself, if someone comes crashing into your home in the manner this guy did you can only assume its to hurt you, he wasn't coming in for a chat, or a cup of tea, I also think it's reasonable to arm yourself with what ever you can find in such a situation considering the danger you are in.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333325#Comment_119333325

Evidence was given that Power assaulted Kerrie's mother and Kerrie himself so I think it's safe to say Dean Kerrie wasn't defending his house. He was defending himself. By the way, you can use reasonable force to protect your house.

2.— (1) Notwithstanding the generality of any other enactment or rule of law and subject to subsections (2) and (3), it shall not be an offence for a person who is in his or her dwelling, or for a person who is a lawful occupant in a dwelling, to use force against another person or the property of another person where—

(a) he or she believes the other person has entered or is entering the dwelling as a trespasser for the purpose of committing a criminal act, and

(b) the force used is only such as is reasonable in the circumstances as he or she believes them to be—

(i) to protect himself or herself or another person present in the dwelling from injury, assault, detention or death caused by a criminal act,

(ii) to protect his or her property or the property of another person from appropriation, destruction or damage caused by a criminal act, or

If someone attacked me in my house in the middle of the night, I think it would be reasonable to use a knife or whatever else was to hand to defend myself.

I think the fact that Kerrie didn't give evidence himself in this second trial might have harmed his defence. There is a lot of conflicting evidence too, especially from Christopher Lee. His version of events were very different from Dean Kerrie's.

Jequ0n

Very strange outcome. I remember reading about the case and thinking that this was a hell of a situation to deal with for a teenager. Unless I remember incorrectly there was an issue with hiding the knife, but I can’t see how this would have benefited ms angle.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333458#Comment_119333458

The blood soaked knife was on the draining board in the kitchen. Very poor effort at hiding the knife. It doesn't even look like he was trying to hide it in plain sight as it wasn't washed. It was heavily blood stained. I wouldn't believe the 'trying to hide the knife' end of things.

screamer

I’m sure this won’t be the last we hear of it.

donaghs

Is there some element of doubt about the facts of the case? After Power throws a stone at the window, many reports say “There were differing accounts of what happened next.” E.g. was Power attacked/confronted in the garden first and followed Kerrie into the house.

IF, Keerie’s account is correct , it seems like a self-defence scenario.

markw7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333325#Comment_119333325

Rocks are for hiding under, not breaking into peoples' homes.....

The hoops people jump through to defend scumbags is unbelievable.

Ham_Sandwich

he could have left his house and called the gardai thats what there there for everyone wants it to be the wild west like america killing people over trespassing

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336136#Comment_119336136

"He could have left his house" the guy smashed his way in with a rock and entered his house...how do you suggest he would have got out by him? With the likelihood the guy was going to bash his head in...with a f#cking rock!

How long would the gardai have taken?

Ham_Sandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336172#Comment_119336172

houses usually have a front and back door theres also a window which id rather jump out to avoid having to kill someone

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336550#Comment_119336550

Just nonsense, you are putting the blame for this at the person whose house was broken into?

People react in the moment when something happens I would say the majority of people would have acted exactly the same.

Sandor Clegane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336550#Comment_119336550

Well, god forbid if you ever find yourself in such a situation then you are entitled to go for the back door or jump out the window, however you're not obliged to, how a person reacts is going to be different for everyone, there is no telling what any of us would do in a situation like this unless it happened to you, no reaction is the wrong one in a situation like this, if you run or hide fine, if you stand your ground and this happens, also fine...a person who forcibly enters your home should have little to no rights and the courts should lean heavily in favor of the person defending himself/family/home.

Overheal

IDK about this case but I live in an apartment, there is 1 entrance only, and I'd break my legs exiting any other way. If you come looking to do me harm in my bible belt abode I'm just saying don't miss, I don't intend and you'll be giving me few alternatives.

Varik

Judge's instructions sound way off.

If he used excessive force but had an honest belief that the force he used was necessary then he is not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter, the judge said. He added: "If you find that the accused knew the force used was excessive, then you must find him guilty of murder."

Any report or article or even the amendment to the act itself can't possibly be read that way.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/act/35/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336136#Comment_119336136

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336550#Comment_119336550

I hope there's never a war or some sort of emergency where we have to depend on the likes of you.

Rothko

Can't believe that there are people trying to defend the guy who smashed his way into another person's house. Incredible.

pjcb

the witness described the guy leaving the house when he was stabbed

ittakestwo

You dont have a authomatic right to kill someone if they break into your home.... obviously. Only if you believe your life is in danger. But you cant infer someone breaking into your home wants to kill. Thousands of break ins a year which virtually lead to no deaths.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119341150#Comment_119341150

That doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't walking-dead, with limited time to expire.

Boggles

It seems to me on the face of it his defence were for want of better wording less keen in the retrial.

It also appears to me that the law needs further clarification.

Is there much difference in this case?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-20-found-not-guilty-of-murdering-trespasser-with-half-a-garden-shears-36704432.html

usernamegoes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342309#Comment_119342309

That's not true as BattleCorp has quoted above. Provided he only used the amount of force as he honestly believed necessary.

I hope there is more to this than meets the eye otherwise terrible miscarriage of justice.

Furze99

Sounds like a pretty dodgy verdict. If the basic facts are as reported and RTE usually fairly balanced in court reports, I'd find it hard to believe how he could have been convicted. Evidence of victim's friend maybe played a notable role. If some drunk broke into my house, I'd be defending myself and others with whatever is to hand. As for calling the Gardaí, you'd be waiting a long time around here.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342896#Comment_119342896

That is not an automatic right to kill someone who breaks in your home.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342309#Comment_119342309

There's no automatic right to kill someone if they break into your home. There's also no right to kill someone if you believe your life is in danger either for that matter. You have a right to defend yourself and your property in a proportional way. And sometimes that proportional way means that the person attacking you dies. But it doesn't simply mean that you can kill someone if you believe you are in danger. If you defend yourself and your property in a proportional way, you can use this as a defence if you are charged with a crime, even if you kill someone. The law allows you to use this as a defence.

In simple terms, if a 10 year old kid is stealing apples from your orchard (within the curtilage of your property) , you aren't allowed to batter them to death with a lead pipe. That clearly isn't proportional. If a fully grown man is attacking you with a chainsaw, I'd guess using a knife or any other weapon would be proportional. The problem is that it's slightly/very subjective when it comes to a judge or jury deciding what's proportional or not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343000#Comment_119343000

I think it was probably a huge mistake for Dean Kerrie not to give evidence in the trial. It's possible the Jury were swayed by this. I'd say Christopher Lee's evidence probably led to Dean Kerrie being found guilty. Kerrie had the ability to counter Lee's evidence but he didn't take the stand therefore it's possible that they believed Lee moreso than Kerrie.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343122#Comment_119343122

Correct. See my first paragraph in this post.

Sandor Clegane

I'm personally a firm believer in the castle doctrine, a person breaking into your home is one of the grossest violations a person can suffer in my opinion, you could have your kids, someone elderly or vulnerable in the house and you should have the 100% right to act on that threat, including the use of lethal force, it's crazy to me that some people believe you should restrain your actions against an intruder, as if his/her life matters at that point, for me the moment they enter your property they forfeit all rights to life and it should be well within your rights to neutralize any threat you, your family or your property may face...and someone who enters your home illegally should always be considered a threat, the moment they set foot in your house they are a threat to your life.

This is one of the things America gets right imo, places like Texas are the perfect example of how self defense laws should be.

Boggles

Have they hinted at a possible appeal.

From memory he came across quite believable and credible when he took the stand in the first trial, weird he didn't take it for the second.

Also the star witness for the prosecution seemed to be quite the career criminal who was quite fond of breaking into houses which came out during the first trial, was this suppressed in the second I wonder?

Potential-Monke

It's a strange one, and one I'd really like to read the transcripts of. What's in the media is only part of the story, seems like there's a lot more to it. But, having read the below, I can't believe he was found guilty but the lad @Boggles posted in post #27 got off with it!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40806342.html

I can see an appeal.

Lewis_Benson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360259#Comment_119360259

This.

As soon as they enter, its fair game.

Come into my house to cause harm, I'm going to harm you.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361836#Comment_119361836

That article is from the first trial. It's dated 11th Feb 2022 so nothing in it is relevant to evidence given in the most recent trial. By reading that article, you are reading the happenings of a different trial.

Dean Kerrie didn't give any evidence in the retrial which I think was why he lost this case.

Potential-Monke

That's why I'd like a transcript. Just seem strange overall.

yerwanthere123

Dean Kerrie jailed today for three and a half years. Outrageous decision.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2022/10/26/youth-who-stabbed-home-intruder-jailed-for-three-and-a-half-years/

ChickenDish

Outrageous to be honest, guy breaks into a house and assaults a teenager, teenager defends his family and home and go's to prison. Judge maintained the kid used excessive force, how badly would the kid have to be beaten before he feared for his life. Another miscarriage of justice courtesy of the Irish legal system.

TomTomTim

Does this mean that we're back to where we were before the ruling in the McNally case? As it seems to be the case. The castle doctrine doesn't really seem to exist in Ireland if so, as this standard seems to be inline with the standard that exists outside of the "castle"

I'm pretty extremist when it comes to this stuff, as I think you should be able to do literally anything you want to someone who breaks into your home.

yerwanthere123

It's another case where there's more sympathy for the victim than the perpetrator. I can't imagine the fear of someone breaking into my home overnight, and I'm a lot older than Dean Kerrie.

BrianD3

Is there a minimum sentence for this type of conviction. I'm trying to figure out if it's the judge or the jury or both who are the idiots here.

A skinny teenager is in his home when a grown man throws a rock through the window, enters the property and assaults him and possibly his mother. Who cares if the intruder was (still) armed or not after throwing the rock. I certainly wouldn't take a chance on him being unarmed in that situation. Put him down as quickly as possible using any weapon that comes to hand and if he dies, he dies. it's not as if the intruder came in to rob the TV and was in the process of fleeing with it when stabbed - in that case then yeah, the force would have been excessive.

Dyr

Remember when we were told that the law was changed to you would get the benefit of the doubt for defending your home? Turned out it was bullsht

If this lad had killed a fella in the street, the would have got a suspended sentence.

kowloonkev

I noticed at the end of the report he will have to engage with addiction services to have the last twelve months suspended. Was he intoxicated at the time of the incident? Such things could sway a jury.

Hodger

If someone breaks into your house you don,t know if their intentions are to steal / rape- sexually assault or to murder but one thing is for sure they don,t into another persons house with positive intentions on their mind.

Regarding this case in question the young fellow looks skinny looking by all photos and wouldn,t stand much of a chance against a grown man while he was unarmed, people should put themselves in his shoes when you were of his age and skinny build and some man breaks into your house while your mother is home, what would you do ? would you not grab something to use as a weapon in self defence ?

One thing for sure about Ireland is we have a broken justice system when this young lad get prison for self defence and men who break into houses and sexually assault women receive suspended sentences as happened up in Donegal.

https://www.thejournal.ie/sexual-assault-3-5605157-Nov2021/

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340713#Comment_119340713

If everyone was like them there would be no wars to worry about. I'd like to live in a world where people try everything to avoid killing someone, wouldn't you?

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796414#Comment_119796414

According to Irish law, you should have a think about the law while it's happening, then find something to defend yourself with, but make sure that it's something that won't harm them too much. So if there's a knife near by, you should head out to shed and look for a baseball bat or something. We can't have poor criminals being harmed. It just wouldn't be right.

Boggles

Baffling case given the precedent already set under the same defence.

Why his lawyers didn't put him on the stand for the second trial is a mystery.

Justice was not served here IMHO.

Varik

Jury found he'd an honest belief that the force used was appropriate but unlike any other case or even the most laymen reading of the the current laws since they added the "honest belief" part the Judge instructed the Jury it's either Murder or manslaughter nothing else......

It shall not be an offence, it's in the first part of the law. It doesn't say you get a downgrade of offense but you're still guilty.

"Judge said Dean Kerrie was entitled to use force in defence of himself, but the force he used was ‘grossly’ excessive"

Only thing up for question was whether he honestly thought the force use was appropriate not if it was or if the Judge thinks it is.

elperello

I believe in the right of citizens to defend themselves and their property but I would add one caveat for the purposes of this discussion.

Neither I nor presumably any other poster here has heard all the evidence in this case but the jury and judge did.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796808#Comment_119796808

Yep.

I did think it telling that he was marked moderate, and not low as regards reoffending in a violent way. Maybe there was a bit more to the situation..