Teachers leaving Dublin schools due to accommodation costs

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657623#Comment_119657623

Probably something to do with being a large city as well, so there are a vast range of jobs to choose from. If there's a particular career you want to pursue in this country, if you can't pursue it in Dublin, it's unlikely you'll be doing anywhere else in the country. On the other hand, if you live in a rural county like I do, where the range of jobs is far less, a teaching job is a good, well paid job, and with a CID offers security. Also a job where the skills are needed countrywide so there's a chance of getting a job relatively near home if that's your thing.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662514#Comment_119662514

I've never seen those stats anywhere, you might be right but my understanding was that the border counties fare worst with areas of the midlands and west being fiarly poor for progression too. There may be more social stratification in Dublin around who attends but there are a large number of school in Dublin sending 100% of their pupils to third level and, as a whole, Dublin has the most educated populace of any of the counties, closely followed by the surroundign counties.

The vast array of jobs might eb the case alright, it's just an interesting issue..........lots of the direct entry courses for the integrated PME are also down teh country proportionally, be no harm to introduce a few more in the city.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119577368#Comment_119577368

So an architect should get extra pay for having a qualification in architecture? A dentist should receive extra pay for having a qualification in dentistry?

This PME/HDip allowance is ridiculous.

joebloggs32

Its a relic from years gone by really when unqualified teachers (eg the clergy) could be employed in secondary schools. Those who had got proper teaching qualifications were paid an additional allowance. Many private sector companies will do likewise for those who get additional qualifications.

Nowadays with the requirements of the teaching council everyone is propetly qualified however the new entrants were being denied the allowance and thus were on an inferior pay scale.

Really the allowance should just be inbuilt now into teachers pay scales but it suits the government to keep it separate as when there are pay rises being handed out they can exclude allowances and thus save €€€€ for the public purse.

dtothebtotheh

Cost of living is not just a "Teacher" problem, it's across the board public & private sectors.

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119577368#Comment_119577368

Only happened because new enterants make up a substantial portion of union now rather than altruistic older teachers

joebloggs32

Its a campaign that has ran for years now.....i must have imagined that time i stood outside my school.with a placard

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665097#Comment_119665097

This is very contructive. I can see how this will solve the acute hiring issues in Health and Education.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665166#Comment_119665166

Definitely, I'd extend it to health, huge issues in retaining senior nurses for the same reasons.

GAAcailin

Government announced that a 1:23 ratio will apply to Primary Schools- no thought whatsoever into how this will be staffed especially in Urban Areas

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665097#Comment_119665097

Spot the poster with no kids needing a teacher.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119544457#Comment_119544457

Fair comment as far as it goes, but you don't need a B Ed or BA/BSc+HDip to work in a shop or a restaurant. There is an investment of time that can be as much as 5 or 6 years study before you qualify as a secondary teacher which eats into your contributions. And then the several years before you get full hours. It's not all plain sailing at all.

If you work in finance, law, IT in the private sector of course you can earn multiples of what a teacher earns for the same investment of time, or even less. Medicine at least requires a long period of study, but the only thing keeping lawyers quids in is the closed shop, because it is not an exceedingly difficult course AFAIK.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119678247#Comment_119678247

Who said it was women moaning?

Maybe check your own preconceptions on the teaching profession.

Frankly I don't care what you actually do... Because my child is still down 2 teachers heading into October. They don't know it yet but another of their long standing teachers is leaving the school in October... I wonder why?

Do you wonder why?

who what when

Qualifications are somewhat irrelevant here.

The tread is about teachers having to leave Dublin because of the cost of living. I was making the point that the cost of living effects everyone including those who don't make anywhere near what teachers make.

Regarding the salaries of those in IT and Law. People in those professions can make multiples of a teachers salary yes, but none of them will be leaving the office at 3 either. Or taking the entire summer off for that matter.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119678769#Comment_119678769

Your neglecting the "greater good", I think it's generally accepted that every child is entitled to an education and a teacher with that.

Every child is not entitled to (or needs) an accountant or barman or hairdresser or shelf stacker or whatever.

The simple fact of the matter is that teachers are leaving the capital because wages don't compensate for cost of living... What do you propose?

who what when

You've gone off on a tangent there.

I didn't suggest or say children aren't entitled to an education.

My point, again, is that many many much lower paid people can live in Dublin despite the higher cost of living there. So why can't teachers?

who what when

Also I personally know approx. 10 teachers who are not originally from Dublin who are currently living and working in Dublin.

And from speaking to some of them they have no intention of moving back, at least in the short term.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680034#Comment_119680034

Because they are well educated and a valuable commodity on the international market. People who work in low paid jobs generally aren't. Market economics come into play here. At the moment, due to the level of education, market value and international opertuinities we cannot keep teachers in schools in Dublin, this is leading to substandard levels of education provision in Dublin, acutely felt in poorer communiteis where the work can be very challenging. People's opinion or feelings about teaching really aren't the issue, or their perception of how hard we work, the issue is we are not renumberating them well enough to keep them compared to other markets. Same issue with nurses, who I would see a payrise go to in the morning above almost any other sector.

I laugh whe people talk about leaving work at 3.......I start around 8 and never leave before 4.....all plannning and correcting is done at home and I train teams after school. Twice this week I've had no lunch because I didn't have time. Like any job, there are of course people phoning it in but the vast majority of teachers work pretty hard........even if you can't see them at home correcting at night.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119678299#Comment_119678299

Closed shop for law? ............... Barristers are actually required to be self employed. They are prohibited from even forming chambers like in the UK

It is common enough for teachers to qualify as barristers as their schedule facilitates the study if you do it part time. A lot of people who qualify as barristers aren't still practising 10 years later. Mainly because of the pay (or lack thereof)! So it is convenient to have a secure job to fall back on

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725108#Comment_119725108

So can my darling offspring get to study law with average points in the leaving? Or is law up there like medicine?

If it is the latter, then law is a closed shop. Unless you have connections and loadsa dosh to pay for the Inns, which is another way of keeping the average person out. I mean, what level of intellect is required to convey a house? Could an averagely intelligent person learn to do it? If so, you don't need high points. The points required should reflect the difficulty of the course, not the money to be earned after finishing the course. If the points reflect the latter, or if you need a lot of money to pay for the course, then you have a closed shop.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119678769#Comment_119678769

How do you know none of them will be leaving early? I know dentists, for example, who only work mornings, and for the very simple reason that they earn so much that they can afford to take the afternoon off. I know there are people in IT and the law who are in the same position.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119735407#Comment_119735407

Loadsa dosh? You can qualify as a barrister as a mature student (23+) without a strict requirement for any prior formal qualifications (in theory not even a Junior Cert) for about 23k tuition in fees total. And they have scholarships available as well for hardship cases. Their Legal Diploma is 2 years part time (so you could also work) and then you could do the BL one year full time, or two years part time. Fair enough, you might not find 23k behind the couch but you are talking about 100 quid a week for the 4 years you'd be studying if you wanted to do all the part time options in order to get into what you (incorrectly) think is a lucrative career from the start. For comparison, you probably wouldn't have any change out of your 23k by the end of the second year if you sent your child to do an Arts degree.

If you want to go and do Law in Trinity College then you will need the marks. It's a competitive process and for all it's faults, the CAO does not discriminate on any other factor except for points obtained in the Leaving Cert. So it is on merit. But you don't have the points to do it there, then you can do it it loads of other places with far less points. There are also part time degrees in the like of Griffith college. I think you can do a part time Bachelor of Laws there over three years for not a huge amount of money.

You come across as someone who tries makes excuses as to why they can't do something before someone explains to them how to do it.

P.S. an undergraduate law degree is only a stepping stone to qualify as a solicitor or a barrister. You'd still have to train as a solicitor, and for a barrister you'd still have to do the BL (plus a year or two deviling)

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736905#Comment_119736905

To quote myself:

So can my darling offspring get to study law with average points in the leaving?

You haven't answered this question, so I'll be more specific: where can you do a BCL, LLB or equivalent on average points, and without shelling out more than you would for a BA?

Law is not a particularly difficult degree, plenty of average sons and daughters of average country solicitors used to get their law degree and then return to do their articles in Da's legal practice, in many cases much of the work involved drawing up wills and doing conveyancing. They weren't expected to be geniuses, but nowadays it seems that they are. So what has changed?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737218#Comment_119737218

Can it be done? Yes. You can check the CAO website for points for last year for various courses. I have no idea what conditions you are going to impose in order to keep putting obstacles in your own way.

Can they do it? That depends on them. If they aren't able to figure out how to go about it what with universal access to technology and the internet, then perhaps not.

Grolschevik

You don't need a law degree to become a solicitor. In fact, you don't need to have any sort of degree at all. Does one help in passing the professional qualifications? Probably.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680034#Comment_119680034

You are asking the question that's already been answered.... by teachers. Yet you still persist in saying that they CAN afford to live here.

Surviving is not the same as living.

But I suppose your right, there's no issue with teacher supply in Dublin then, it's all just in my imagination, and my children's school principal's as well.

who what when

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753092#Comment_119753092

Nope, sorry now but I didn't say there's no issue with teacher supply in Dublin and I'm not sure why you have decided that I did.

In fact I don't really know if there's a teacher supply problem in Dublin. There is however a labour shortage in the entire country. Some sectors are particularly hard hit.

My own office (outside Dublin) advertised a position during the summer. Not a single response. Using your logic it must be because its not possible to survive on 55k in a small provincial town in Ireland. See how silly that sounds?

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119762304#Comment_119762304

You don't know if there is a teacher supply problem in Dublin?

Do you realise what forum and what thread you've been posting in?

Yes there are employee shortages in other sectors, we get that. But please read the thread title.

DownByTheGarden

I was talking to mines teacher yesterday and i asked how the teacher from the previous year was getting on as they left last year. They told me then that 6 teachers out of 21 left the school last year to go to schools down the country. Another went to the middle east with their partner, also a teacher in a different school.

gaiscioch

Just on The Irish Times website now: 'Secondary schools forced to hire unqualified staff due to ‘unprecedented’ teacher shortages, say principals'

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2022/10/19/secondary-schools-forced-to-hire-unqualified-staff-due-to-unprecedented-teacher-shortages-say-principals/

Claw Hammer

Schools need to do what many employers did years ago - provide housing for staff. Guards used to live in garda stations, nurses lived in hospitals etc. Many schools have empty convents and monasteries attached which could be used to house teachers. There is a lack of lateral thinking and hand-wringing going on.

AJG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771623#Comment_119771623

The damage is systemic... our social fabric is being unravelled before our eyes. There's nobody in power interested in dealing with this unravelling. The whole model of getting a good education... good job... home ownership is dead. Teachers are just collateral damage in this regard. There's no carrot/stick anymore for young people. Titanic and deck chairs spring to mind.

Living in the kind of situation you describe would only appeal to the newly qualified. Nobody other than the young/naive/clergy wants to live in a convent/monastery... while working full time. What exactly is the exit plan from such a situation? Save enough for a deposit. I see they are considering relaxing lending rules... it worked out so well last time... what could possibly go wrong.

I blame no one from bailing from this situation... teacher or student.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772849#Comment_119772849

If a method of easing a problem doesn't sole the entire problem, the it should be tried? If a pill will alleviate the symptoms oif a disease but not cure it, it should'nt be taken?

The main issue with filling vacancies is that newly qualified teachers can't get affordable accommodation in Dublin. Another issue is that more senior teachers can't afford to buy a property in Dublin and move away to a place they can buy a property. A newly qualified teacher trying to find accommodation has to try and secure accommodation whilst living far from Dublin. They have to follow up adverts and chase around to viewings. If they had some kind of affordable accommodation to be going on with, they could find accommodation by informal means and may be able to take over a rent capped place.

AJG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119774619#Comment_119774619

It's merely sticking a plaster over a very large crack. I don't think it would alleviate the problem to the degree that's needed as after a short time teacher's wouldn't put up with accommodation that is no better than a bedsit/digs.

The issues are deep rooted systemic ones. Our government really seems to have no interest in solving the problem which means building good quality, reasonably priced accommodation in the greater Dublin area (probably country wide). It's either incompetence or malfeasance on a grand scale and for the life of me I can't work out either of which applies.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775452#Comment_119775452

Forgive me. I though this was a thread about one particular symptom of the housing problem not an economic and social debate. As for wheher people would put up with it or not or for how long, if some put up with it, even for a short time it would be better than doing nothing. There might be teachers in schools which wouldn't have tghem at all or qualified teachers where there are unqualified.

gaiscioch

Interesting that the case yesterday - https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2022/10/21/row-over-unlawful-protest-outside-school-ahead-of-minister-for-educations-visit/ - where the school management refuses to allow a teacher to be absent one day a week to fulfil his duties as an elected member of the Teaching Council of Ireland.

Even though I'm an ASTI member of long standing, I do have some sympathy for the school management - and the students especially: LC students missing their teacher for o period "amounting to one day per week" to attend TCI meetings does seem unfair to the students. Could the TCI meetings not be arranged in a more student-friendly manner? Presumably the teacher is being paid for that extra work? If so, surely it could be done after school? If he's not paid, I can see why he'd want to attend within class time.

There are far too many LC classes which are without teachers on a quotidian basis. For the past year or so, the classes are often unsupervised because the school has maxed-out the S&S and simply cannot find a teacher to cover the classes. It would be nice to report when you walk in that the LC students are beavering away with their work - but in my experience that would be a lie!

And I think it must also be pointed out that the shortage in teachers has another downside: the academic standard of many teachers has decreased. In our school, generally speaking, there is a clearacademic line between the older exam-focused teachers and younger teachers with all the, like, you know, like, buzzwords - and the kids are acutely aware of the qualitative difference. Focus versus waffle. Given the official downgrading of knowledge in our Junior Cycle "reforms", perhaps we now have "modern teachers" for a "modern education system"? Ah, Ruairí Quinn, you ineffable imbecile of epic proportions, look at the mess you've left us!

AJG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778509#Comment_119778509

I don't think you can separate the two. They're inextricably linked. Teacher shortages are part of a wider social problem of labour shortages across the economy linked to housing. None of it exists in a vacuum.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778680#Comment_119778680

Absolutely true, and anyone who cares about social equality would be acutely aware of the shortages further impacting kids from lower socioeconomic backgrounds where schools can't pay off the books for staff and parents/guardians can't afford grinds.

The new LC reforms will push those near retirement to consider leaving early just like the last set of reforms. Do you really want to engage with all the training if you've a year or two left. That won't help either.

I'd be concerned with the level of fight in the new teachers too, lots of yes sir attitude while they are being asked to do things wildly outside their contracts. Eventually these teachers burn out, sometimes before they hit 30!!

dory

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778680#Comment_119778680

I could see it from the schools POV as well. But, I don't see why the TC meetings can't be online. A minority at that meeting will be teachers. The others won't want to be doing meetings at 7pm. But, they could settle on 3pm or something and the principal could work around that. Unless they're all day meetings.

In other news, this thread reminds me why I'm so glad to have gotten out of teaching - the mad notion that we finish work at 3pm every day still makes me laugh.

Treppen

So yet again the retired teachers are being called up. I agree that they should be allowed to go back and financially incentivisee, but this is nowhere near a solution.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2022/10/21/retired-teachers-may-be-encouraged-back-to-schools-to-plug-classroom-gaps/

As for the school refusing teaching council member from attending I think the rest of the teachers on the TC should not attend meetings either in solidarity.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119779307#Comment_119779307

It is not up to the education sector to solve a general problem. What can be done as employers is provide accommodation for employees. many employers do this. It is a way of mitigating the impact on their own activities not a solution to the overall problem

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787169#Comment_119787169

Many employers provide accommodation???

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787180#Comment_119787180

Probably the same IT companies where workers only work half days. Different to my experience, I spent 10 years where I don't think I had a single week less than 50 hours, it was worth it in the end though.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787180#Comment_119787180

Hotels, pubs, IT companies, building firms and some other companies have all started to provide accommodation for workers to a t least some extent. It was previously common in the public sector with gardai and military provided with accommodation.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787683#Comment_119787683

Any actual examples? Only thing I can find that is concrete is this:

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/googles-pledge-of-subsidised-housing-in-dublin-for-frontline-staff-hit-with-delays-41249956.html

But it is Google providing subsidised accommodation to frontline workers, not their own staff. I assume you are also not talking about temporary serviced apartments for workers relocating.

Powerscourt Hotel also applied to build some staff accommodation:

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/powerscourt-hotel-wins-approval-for-purpose-built-accommodation-for-staff-41893021.html

Nothing really of any scale. Can't see the state providing housing for employees any time soon, there are plenty of others who need housing who would be in greater need.

AJG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787169#Comment_119787169

I never said it was up to them. My argument is that things are beyond repair at this point. Although your suggestion about temporary accommodation would offer a very limited and short term solution it would only appeal to new graduates who would bail at the earliest opportunity. More experienced professionals wouldn’t put up with it

The housing crisis isn’t going to be solved in the short to medium term if ever. There’s zero political will to do anything meaningful as there’s too many vested interests making too much money.

Teachers (as well as many other professions) are just collateral damage. It’s very depressing to watch it play out.

deiseindublin

I don't know of any individual starting a new job that has been offered accommodation since I started working in Dublin nearly 30 years ago.

I did read that Google piece, linked above, when it was published, and remember thinking that public service jobs would be even less attractive to nurses, guards, teachers and civil service.

Treppen

Anyone had any experience of unqualified 'relatives' being brought in to fill the gap ?

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119788218#Comment_119788218

I guess that's a no then

thehairygrape

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778680#Comment_119778680

Ruari Quinn (shudders). JC is gone so bad now they couldn’t be arsed marking it on time. And the kids know it.