Teachers leaving Dublin schools due to accommodation costs

SwimClub

Also your 42% figure must include the state pension that everyone gets. Even with that I will be nowhere near 42% of my final salary, those projections must include very little promotion. You are getting years in service/80 of your career average salary. e.g. if you have 27 years service that is a pension of 1/3 of your average salary not your final salary.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119548160#Comment_119548160

And if you want to know how such a disparity can arise between older and newer entrants just consider who is making these decisions and where their pension is coming from......

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119548160#Comment_119548160

Your link is behind a paywall. But I think you are misunderstanding whatever you read. The majority of private sector workers receive ZERO contributions. Among the minority of people who do receive a contribution, it is typically between 5% - 10%, which tallies with the 7.7% - 7.9% you are seeing.

Given such a worker would probably need an average overall (worker + employer) contribution of maybe 25% over the course of their working life, that amounts to an employer funding ~30% of the pension (7.9 of the 25). But even that doesn't take into consideration things like employers claiming back contributions for early leavers etc which can hurt a lot, especially with today's modern work environment where a huge number of people change employers every few years (so while it pushes up that statistic the actual reality is Zero contributions).

With regards the guarantee, I'm not talking about the annuity that is purchased subsequently, I am talking about having the precise amount in the pot on the date of retirement to enable such a purchase. To have a safe, inflation linked pension pot, would require an investment strategy that would produce extremely low (possibly negative) returns, which means that the employer is contributing far closer to 50%. In a given year, a teacher contributes X which guarantees that they will receive Y amount when they retire (adjusted for inflation). It is still a Defined Benefit Scheme, just one that is not as good as it used to be courtesy of the unions. But one that the majority of private sector workers would bite your hand off if you offered it to them.

In terms of your PRSA, how much are you contributing? And what have the returns been like over the last 15 year and how close are you to retirement?

Treppen

"majority of private sector workers would bite your hand off if you offered it to them."

Why are you still taking about private sector workers like they are one homogenous group?

Your showing your hand now with your digs at unions for the change in pension scheme for new entrants. You know damn well this was brought in by your government during fempi.

So what private sector worker are you comparing to?

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119549618#Comment_119549618

Why are you still taking about private sector workers like they are one homogenous group?

So what private sector worker are you comparing to?

Well, who do you want to use to compare against? I am referring to "pretty much every other worker in the country not in the public single scheme". You believe the pension to be "utter shite", yet is far better than what most receive from their employer.

Your showing your hand now with your digs at unions for the change in pension scheme for new entrants. You know damn well this was brought in by your government during fempi.

I'm not sure what hand you are talking about, but of course this is from the unions. That's what unions do. And as long as new entrants keep joining them, they'll continue to screw the next generation. Oh, and "my government" is also "your government". Not sure why you feel the need to use possessive adjectives when describing them.

But you still haven't answered as to how your PRSA is doing. How much do you contribute? How has it been performing? What investment strategy are you using? How many years to retirement? Will you have enough in the PRSA for a "decent pension"?

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119551890#Comment_119551890

So your comparing teacher pension calculations to "pretty much every other worker in the country"???

Can you outline the pension details of "pretty much every other worker in the country" please? So we can actually compare like for like.

You say the teachers pension is "far better than what most receive from their employer"... Most of who? Like a barman, hairdresser, landscape Gardner??

So by your logic, if their private sector pension schemes are worse, then , teacher pension scheme should be just as bad.... because we're comparing and trying to align it right?

Now it is very funny indeed that you ask how my PRSA is doing because I actually WAS a privately paid teacher with my own PRSA managed by Zurich. And even though I've stopped the contributions and I'm still charged a management fee it's doing very very well... and growing for the most part year on year, it will far exceed anything any NQT would hope to get out of their contributions.

Plus you may be astounded to know that my school ALSO made a contribution towards my pension! Which they certainly did not for the public sector teachers in the same school.

So if you want to compare Public Sector Teacher pensions to Private Sector teacher pensions then let's do that. Rather than comparing us to "pretty much every other worker in the country". Which you fail to define.

Furthermore , when I was privately paid (on a par with public sector pay). I didn't have to contribute to any of this nonsense in the public scheme.

It was just one monthly payment which I got the usual tax relief on.

Nothing happens to this money above in the photo which I pay, it is not invested by the state into any fund, it's thrown into the general Exchequer pot. Our public sector pensions come out of the same Exchequer pot. You may remember there was a pension reserve fund started with a few billion built up, but of course the glorious private sector bank crash saw that off.

And if you want to talk about how a private teacher pension fund contributions could replace the government I'd be happy to just link it to Zurich or the OTTP and eliminate the nonsense in the photo above.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557063#Comment_119557063

USC = income tax

AVC = 96.69 = your own personal choice to have an extra private pension, this is not a compulsory deduction.

The compulsory pension contributions are:

(1) Pensions grouped

(2) Spouses and Children pension 1.5%

(3) ASC, previously known as PRD, this is an extra pension contribution, at 10% on any income over 34k

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557128#Comment_119557128

AVC = your own personal choice to have an extra private pension.

Indeed, my own choice ... But I still count it as a nonsense of the teaching system because of it's part time nature. Which , seeing as we are talking about teachers leaving Dublin schools , is a factor, i.e. offering a teacher 6 hours then suggesting they have the "choice" to make up their guaranteed pension shortfall with an AVC is like saying ,well if you don't like the crowded A&E then you have a choice to build your own hospital.

USC ... fair enough I didn't mean to circle that.

The compulsory pension contributions are:

(1) Pensions grouped

(2) Spouses and Children pension 1.5%

(3) ASC, previously known as PRD, this is an extra pension contribution, at 10% on any income over 34k.

Yes they are compulsory, the point being, if I were private I would have better control. Plus I wouldn't be paying (2) or (3) . They are just another tax on public servants, nothing of this money gets "invested" anywhere .

I'd rather decide where Id "invest" that €500 euro from Pension Grouped, Sp&ch and ASC every month myself. Most private sector workers have a choice no?

Treppen

Probably dragging this off topic with talks of pensions.... Meanwhile my kids are still missing teachers today, and the class sizes for subjects has gone to 30+ to 1 in a lot of cases.

Plus weve had 2 further announcements today in our school of teachers leaving Dublin over the next few months. These teachers have both been in the school for 5+ years.

That's on top of career break teachers currently working in Dubai with the hope of buying property in Dublin when they come back... But it's looking like they might up sticks too.

So ya, aren't teacher pensions great altogether! They should be more thankful.

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557257#Comment_119557257

don't count on irish teachers from dubai coming back anytime soon many are deciding to stay

GAAcailin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119558659#Comment_119558659

Treppen - think the pension debate was taking the initial thread off topic, not your comments.

We have the same issue with our school in Dublin, last year the kids with extra needs really missed out on their extra hours tuition as these resource teachers were pulled out to cover other teachers absences; Already we have received a note from the school that where there is a staff absence this year and no substitute teacher can be identified that a resource teacher will cover the absence. Pre-covid the kids would be split up and sent to other classrooms (for short term absences).

2011abc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542969#Comment_119542969

I think you may be one of the dozens if not hundreds of online profiles based in political party or government department HQs but maybe Im a bit of a conspiracy theorist .Its crazy how in some online debates today there seem to be a large proportion of 'bots'-sometimes debating with one another !No doubt people seem to be very bad at basic maths these days .Public sector pension was solid but not gilt edged up to 2008 .Its not our fault the 'market' devastated private sector pensions and as a result ours (at least for the oldies) seems so good .Its not really ,its just that everybody elses (except the 1% ,ministers etc )is so bad .Race to the bottom !

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564625#Comment_119564625

but maybe Im a bit of a conspiracy theorist

You said it!

But it's not a race to the bottom. It's simply to do with the fact that we are living longer, having less children and have a significantly improved standard of living compared to previous generations. When pensions where brought in mainstream (as a result of the industrial revolution), it was supposed to be a few quid for a few years so people didn't spend their last few years destitute/homeless etc (from retirement to dying a few years later). Today, we need/want pensions that give us a great life with all the modern comforts we have grown accustomed to and enjoy this retirement for 20 odd years, but still expect it to be as cheap as the original idea.

By the 80's/90's, it was clear that the defined benefit (DB) model was not going to work (as too expensive and required investment in low risk/yield products), and the few private sector companies that previously offered them closed them (if they hadn't already gone bust). Unfortunately, rather than try and transition over and agree on a great DC scheme, all the public sector unions kept pushing to keep the DB, and kick the can down the road (as they do with pretty much everything), and ultimately settled on this hybrid DB/DC scheme. Likewise, today, instead of focusing on pension benefits, they keep focusing on salaries.

Anyway, this is going way off topic. My only point is that the current scheme, while not as good as before, is still better than nothing, which is what most people have. And the very same unions who negotiated and agreed with this, are now the ones who try to distort it to make it look worse than it actually is (as they like to keep everyone thinking they are the victims).

joebloggs32

New circular out today. PME/hDip allowance to be added to new entrants pay scales. The money to fund it comes from the unions diverting a general pay rise for all to specifically adress this issue for new entrants. We've had a lot of sh1t thrown at us over the years saying we sold out the younger teachers when the fact was the government locked us into a deal and subsequently turned around and slashed new entrants pay.

Pay inequality is now almost wiped out. It has taken over 10 years to get here. The non teaching public sector unions didn't give a toss and still don't as they overseen pay rises for all this year when they too could have boosted the pay of their new entrant members.

I want to salute the leadership of both the second level unions who helped to make this happen. The next battle will now be the new entrants pensions.

reality keeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119577368#Comment_119577368

Why should that be the next battle? Did new entrants not sign a contract accepting the new pension arrangements?

The plush pension deal and pay HAD to be gradually changed. It was costing too much money. DB pensions give more, much more, than the recipients contribute.

And before you ask the inevitable question “why should two people be paid differently for the same job?”. It happens ALL the time in the private sector. Deal with it.

I had to work my arse off and negotiate my way up to €87,238 p/a.

joebloggs32

New entrant teachers are being lockec into a pension scheme that is practically unethical. If they actually worked a full career of 40 years they will need to live to the age of 94 to get back what they put into it. Considering that life expectancy is around 82 it means the government has a nice little earner.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602547#Comment_119602547

Soooo you don't think the staff shortage is worthy of addressing?

No kids then?

Dickie10

I know what people mean when they say " two teachers doing the same job" but I would argue no two teachers can ever do the same job really. Theres a world of diference between working in a private school in SoCoDub and somewhere that has to take the sort of feral scrotes from the cherry orchard video seen this week. Christ no amount of money could pay you to deal with that in fairness. I dont think I would be able for it anyway being honest, id say I would be gone after a week.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652371#Comment_119652371

Different folks and all that. I hated working in the SoCoDub type schools. Depneds on why you got in to teaching I suppose too and what aspects of it you enjoy.

Dublin doesn't produce a lot of teachers, just as an aside. I've never been in a school in Dublin where even half the teachers would be from the city and you don't meet a lot of teachers from Dublin in the country. I've always found that curious and definitely means you feel the effect of teacher shortages faster. My school down home is under no pressure to staff itself, but they'd have a few teachers every year coming through from alumni, 6/7 in my year alone.

But cost of rent is costing us teachers, that's indisputable at this point. Dublin is more expensive to live in compared to the rest of the country and places like Cherry Orchard don't need a revolving door of PMEs trying to serve a community they know nothing about because they'll be gone home in a couple of years. Pay more and get the best you can in schools in these areas and keep them, you've a better chance with wrap around services and a well run community based school of keeping kids off the streets causing havoc................kids who percieve they have a future worth investing in don't ram garda cars

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657623#Comment_119657623

There has always been lower attendance rates at 3rd level from Dublin, compared to non-Dublin.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657623#Comment_119657623

Probably something to do with being a large city as well, so there are a vast range of jobs to choose from. If there's a particular career you want to pursue in this country, if you can't pursue it in Dublin, it's unlikely you'll be doing anywhere else in the country. On the other hand, if you live in a rural county like I do, where the range of jobs is far less, a teaching job is a good, well paid job, and with a CID offers security. Also a job where the skills are needed countrywide so there's a chance of getting a job relatively near home if that's your thing.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662514#Comment_119662514

I've never seen those stats anywhere, you might be right but my understanding was that the border counties fare worst with areas of the midlands and west being fiarly poor for progression too. There may be more social stratification in Dublin around who attends but there are a large number of school in Dublin sending 100% of their pupils to third level and, as a whole, Dublin has the most educated populace of any of the counties, closely followed by the surroundign counties.

The vast array of jobs might eb the case alright, it's just an interesting issue..........lots of the direct entry courses for the integrated PME are also down teh country proportionally, be no harm to introduce a few more in the city.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119577368#Comment_119577368

So an architect should get extra pay for having a qualification in architecture? A dentist should receive extra pay for having a qualification in dentistry?

This PME/HDip allowance is ridiculous.

joebloggs32

Its a relic from years gone by really when unqualified teachers (eg the clergy) could be employed in secondary schools. Those who had got proper teaching qualifications were paid an additional allowance. Many private sector companies will do likewise for those who get additional qualifications.

Nowadays with the requirements of the teaching council everyone is propetly qualified however the new entrants were being denied the allowance and thus were on an inferior pay scale.

Really the allowance should just be inbuilt now into teachers pay scales but it suits the government to keep it separate as when there are pay rises being handed out they can exclude allowances and thus save €€€€ for the public purse.

dtothebtotheh

Cost of living is not just a "Teacher" problem, it's across the board public & private sectors.

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119577368#Comment_119577368

Only happened because new enterants make up a substantial portion of union now rather than altruistic older teachers

joebloggs32

Its a campaign that has ran for years now.....i must have imagined that time i stood outside my school.with a placard

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665097#Comment_119665097

This is very contructive. I can see how this will solve the acute hiring issues in Health and Education.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665166#Comment_119665166

Definitely, I'd extend it to health, huge issues in retaining senior nurses for the same reasons.

GAAcailin

Government announced that a 1:23 ratio will apply to Primary Schools- no thought whatsoever into how this will be staffed especially in Urban Areas