The twelfth is upon us again

PeaSea

The bonfires are a way of marking territory, nothing else. A lot of them seem to have found their way to being "built" in places that are in full & close view of nationalist areas, certainly in those towns with a sizeable nationalist population. It's a way of telling nationalists that this isn't their country, and that they should stay out of that area. It's actually quite similar to a bear scratching it's back on trees to spread it's scent so other bears can stay out of it's territory. Or foxes urinating to similarly mark territory. Those organizing bonfires haven't really advanced beyond this animal instinct. They are genuinely barbaric in nature.

I say "built" because they are not safe structures and every now and then one collapses the wrong direction. In more recent years they have become massive structures, and the taller they are the more unsafe they are. Certainly the historical bonfires of King Billy that they are supposed to be based on were mere beacons, not multi storied behemoths. I feel very sorry for those that live near them who have to suffer these monstrosities for months and live in fear for their property's safety for a night each year. All in the name of culture. On safety grounds alone they should be consigned to the historical bin marked "let us learn from these but never speak of them again". In practice we should ensure each one has a valid fire certificate, planned structural detail, max height, and crowd safety plans. That should do it.

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248406#Comment_119248406

As you like a challenge, name me one time that a St Patricks day parade caused the Unionist population to be locked up in their homes, or flee the area out if year in the days running up to the 17th. Plenty of incidents on the 12th, hell the parades commision was set up because ye wouldn't stop marching in areas where ye were not wanted. Even after the murder of the 3 quinn brothers, some scum still wanted to march at drumcree, how low can you go. Then again what should people expect from a group of "humans" who sing a song about the tragic murder of a young woman because she was a catholic. Scum

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119242132#Comment_119242132

They may have left it behind, but having lived in mainland Europe for over 30 years I can say, they know exactly what the 12th represents dispirited the OPs attempt to normalize it as just a typical celebration!

Both my grown up kids went to school in Switzerland and during history lessons they were left in no doubt as to what the Orange Order represents. So the OP can continue jollying it up all he wants, he is not fooling the people of Europe.

It would be like celebrating Columbus Day but with bonfires in Indian reservations with Pocahontas draped over them.

pjohnson

Evidence is always welcome in a discussion. Rambling shíte is what isn't.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251009#Comment_119251009

Asking other people to find evidence for your argument is a strong indication that you're talking bollox.

I'm an Ulster Unionist. I've no problem with Unionists having their grubby little parades. They just need to grow up and keep to their own areas. If they need to burn symbols of someone else's identity to mask the fact that they have no culture, they can go for it with the same proviso.

The BBC is right to stop indulging this anti-intellectual, browbeating nonsense. It's the 21st century.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251009#Comment_119251009

That'd be the parade that the Parades Commission re-routed to avoid passing the IRA victims memorial in 2008, Downcow?

The parade route that was shortened due to complaints from local Unionists is hardly an example of looking the other way. The band that has quite an active social media group seeking to have them banned from all parades is hardly an example of looking the other way.

And that would be in the same Kilkeel that was 54% Protestant, 41% Catholic in the most recent census rather than 95% Unionist as you said?

That being said, looking at the band themselves (very sparse) social media history, I certainly wouldn't be inviting them to my local parade. You could've made a legitimate point if you didn't feel the need to exaggerate and overplay the victim card there.

I wonder what the ratio would be of Nationalist bands supporting dissident Republicanism (this point I only have your word as evidence for, though I can see they certainly did their share of celebrating old IRA/PIRA) to Loyalist Blood-and-Thunder, Urinating on Catholic Church type bands?

You'd of course agree that comparing a town centre to a residential area is pretty silly, so I wonder could you provide an example of this kind of contentious behaviour trying to force a route through an entirely residential area that is 90+% Unionist rather than the town centre of a relatively mixed town?

We could even play a wee game where for every example you provide, I'll try to provide FIVE from the other side and see who runs out first?

But let me be clear, I uphold their right to parade through the town. I support diversity

This bit is particularly transparent. "I'll pretend that I'm fine with one isolated event to try and make people look bad for objecting to a few hundred comparable bad events on this side every year".

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251009#Comment_119251009

Nobody said that 'no Union flags were burned in the South' you are lying now.

St Patrick's day is not about hate for anyone, that is just another lie.

Fionn1952

Just to provide a counterpoint to some of my previous posts, I think things like this are a genuine positive step;

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2022/06/24/news/-disney-inspiration-for-eleventh-night-bonfire-in-portadown-2753294/

I think the organisers taking height concerns on board, making the bonfire a bit more interesting, incorporating a fireworks display and the teddy bear made out of bales is a positive move that should be lauded. Providing it stays flag/effigy free, this could be an example to many others on how to actually create a more family friendly atmosphere.

Wouldn't be my cup of tea, but I could understand why someone might want to take the kids to see this.

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251009#Comment_119251009

Waffle, no answer. The fact that you're having a go about shops being closed tells me you can't or won't tell the difference that due to certain parades Nationalists being locked in their actual homes or having to leave the jurisdiction. You probaly think thisis ok. Again name me one time that Unionists are actually locked in their actual by the PSNI. Simply put, there has never been a case caused by the paddys day parade.

Admit you're wrong and move on, it may be good for you.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251111#Comment_119251111

Let’s have a grown up conversation.

I was clear that unionists worked hard to convince locals to allow an ira parade through their area. So of course there was opposition pre 2008.

again, as I said, there is a continued very minor campaign to stop the parade.

kilkeel residents could stop it by force at a moments notice but don’t.

Please stop misquoting me. I did not say kilkeel was 95% unionist. I said the Main Street route of the parade was 95% unionist (approx). The nearest houses (google again if you wish) the Esplanade is 100% unionist and the Ira parade and the other two st Patrick’s day parades go closer to those houses than the oo go to the houses on garvaghy road. Now can you find me a 100% nationalist housing area that loyalists insist on marching past??

as for % of Ira supporting bands. In kilkeel there are 3 parades through Protestant areas. Two of them are catholic / aoh parades and people are fine with them. One is and Ira parade and although provocative, the community ignore it. So that is 33%

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251084#Comment_119251084

incorrect again. I won’t risk posting links but the bbc say they are ‘enhancing their coverage’ We will also now have Uk wide coverage for the first time

heres a quote

BBC Northern Ireland interim director Adam Smyth said the decision was taken for audience reasons and "not to diminish" the importance of 12 July to the unionist community. 

"There are 80% more people available to watch the highlights programme in the evening than there are available to watch the live programme during the day," Mr Smyth said. 

"But more than that, I think putting some of our resources into the highlights programme, allows us to get out of Belfast to see all of Northern Ireland, and to really capture the richness of the cultural event that it is beyond Belfast, where we've been focused for quite some time.

"We do understand how much value people put on the Twelfth and in no way are we seeking to deny any of that, but we're trying to shape our resources to maximise the audience benefit."

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251617#Comment_119251617

I appreciate your post but It shows the disconnect. most fires are less controversial than this one.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251211#Comment_119251211

Here you go. The comment I was responding directly to.

And yes, I have learnt that you can call me a liar and get away with it. I’ll not even waste my time reporting it

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119252404#Comment_119252404

where did anybody say that ‘no union flags were burned in the south’ which is what you claimed was said.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119252404#Comment_119252404

That doesnt say what you claimed to be responding to! What you originally said...

I posted a pic earlier in response to claims that no flags are burnt in the south

Now where in the piece you quoted does it say what you claimed?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119252333#Comment_119252333

You won't risk posting links? We know why the BBC is lowering its coverage of the twelfth. It's an embarassment.

Did you even read this rubbish you posted?

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119252348#Comment_119252348

There you go reading past posts instead of reading them.

I was commenting on the, 'family friendly' progress of this particular fire, not controversy. I've seen many bonfires, unremarkable is how I'd describe most, controversial and triumpalist is how I'd describe some, family friendly isn't what would spring to mind typically. This one, while not my cup of tea inspired a positive traction from me for two reasons the first being actively listening to concerns around danger to houses and stepping back from the d*ck-measuring, 'build it bigger, they shouldn't build houses where there are bonfires' foolishness. The second being that I can actually see efforts to make it appealing for more than just, 'yeeoo let's get pissed up and burn stuff' types and actually appeal to families.

The wee hay bale teddy bear alone is probably the most outright positive thing I've seen at a bonfire myself.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119252271#Comment_119252271

You should watch the Little Britain sketch where the customer in the book shop keeps looking for more and more specific books. You are getting a bit ridiculous.

Maybe you could tell me of anywhere where nationalist residents were closed in, bar for the time a parade takes to pass like kilkeel. There are one or two famous cases where nationalist intolerance meant that major military operations had to be set up which extended everyone’s hassle. Also tell me anywhere this year where this will happen.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119252432#Comment_119252432

This demonstrates the pathetic tactics used against me and my community on here. I could go through any post here with a microscope and say that so and so was not exactly what was said. It’s nonsense. The claims were clear.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119253321#Comment_119253321

The victimhood again.

NOBODY said what you claimed.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119252630#Comment_119252630

I didn’t mean to upset you and your explanation is positive. The bit most seem to not get is that the vast vast majority are ‘family friendly’ but everyone wants to focus on isolated incidents. 10,000s young people with too much to drink are out partying on the eleventh night, of course there will be issues.

the single greatest worry I have about the 11th and the lead up to it is that it is inevitable a young person will fall off one of these fires during building. It’s remarkable no one has died to date. When that happens then that tragedy will be exploited by nasty nasty people to have a go at the events.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119253321#Comment_119253321

The text you pasted here claimed the opposite to what you say it did. No microscope is required.

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119253310#Comment_119253310

You may look up Drumcree. No comparisons between the two parades, one is an inclusive event the other is a bigoted hatefest. Finally if you attend the bonfires and you don't speak up at the Irish National Flag being burned, you are a seactarian bigot. Have you ever spoken up, if not we all know what you are.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119253321#Comment_119253321

You lied to the forum with what you claimed. I called you out on it. Now you're lying again. Do you really need to lie to make your point?

What is pathetic is your constant need to troll the forum with your nonsense whilst playing the victim card. Everyone can clearly see through it!

Whilst you and your community are welcome anywhere on this island, your sectarian shite thinly disguised as an attempt at dialogue is not welcome. To get back on topic, the orange order is a sectarian organisation that would not be welcome anywhere else in Europe. The triumphalism exhibited in the parades is not a celebration unless you are celebrating bigotry, discrimination and exclusion. They should not be made welcome in any progressive society!

Beasty

downcow threadbanned

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119252404#Comment_119252404

Tut tut. Shouldn't be misrepresenting me now. That could be construed as underhanded. You wouldn't really want to be thought of in that way I'm sure.

lawred2

Unionist family friendly does not really mean family friendly

satguy

Big bonfires,, Built in Unionist council estates by those on the UK Dole.

I really hope the BBC have lots of coverage this year, so that the British tax payer can see what they are getting for their money.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119254365#Comment_119254365

The British taxpayer doesn't care what the orange bigots get up to. They barely remember that Northern Ireland even exists.