General Premier League Thread 2022-23 - mod note in OP 12/03/23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251038#Comment_119251038

Imagine the best teams being perceived to get more decisions in their favour. Certainly wouldn't hear about it these days. Hilarious the attempts to try keep United down. They can do it themselves.

Fattybojangles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119242222#Comment_119242222

Yeah the leveraged buy outs are a disgrace I mean you either have the money/credit to buy the asset or you don't being allowed to shovel your debt onto a club is scandalous. FWIW Burnley seem to be making good moves in transfer market signed the really promising Scott Twine from MK Dons he was league 1 Player of the season.

doc_17

City selling Jesus for roughly the same as they are signing Haaland….Haaland is a smart operator.

Fattybojangles

https://twitter.com/Jesanchez3/status/1541865849044307972?t=ouoR0M0MIfPhhd1JoMo5tg&s=19

Great point from Townsend he's bang on the money nothing to do with player welfare all to do with the super league 6 gaining yet another advantage over the rest.

Klopps incessant bellyaching about this was nauseating.

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265487#Comment_119265487

Liverpool have just come out of a season where they have played 63 games. The World and her mother were all saying how tired the players looked in May. I think he has a point.

Andros only managed 21 appearances last season - perhaps he fears competition!

citytillidie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265487#Comment_119265487

Yep just ignore that the law makers have made 5 subs the law now for the world game so they had to do it.

martyos121

Even when someone in the sport is finally speaking up and trying to advocate positive change for player welfare, you'll still have muppets like Townsend putting them down.

Klopp isn't the bad guy here, no matter how some will try to paint it. Bitter Andros just wants to make himself relevant again somehow as he's not able to do it on a football pitch anymore.

DM_7

As last season started I thought the 5 subs would just have unfairly helped the bigget budget clubs but based on how the season unfolded I think I was wrong in that assumption.

City and Liverpool still got over 90 points in a condensed season with long European runs and cup games added to the mix. Burnley, Norwich and Watford were all well short of the 40 point mark with southampton getting to 40 (in 15th). Leeds and Everton also fell short of 40points.

It may have cost City and Liverpool more in Europe to have had less rotation compared to Real Madrid who had 5 subs to work with all season but that is back to assumptions more than fact.

In La liga the bottom 6 were 39points or less so only one point less than England (where Southampton got 40). In England the top 4 lost 22 games, in La Liga the top 4 lost 24 games. In England they drew 30 games, in La Liga 42.

ShamoBuc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265487#Comment_119265487

Booooooo Klopp.... Bellayaching Klopp etc

The fact that he is right is clearly lost on you.

Fitz*

It was a lot more than Klopp that wanted 5 subs but he is the easy target for talksport and the likes. Obviously Townsend lapped it up.

The clubs voted for the 5 subs. Why doesn't he direct his anger towards who voted that way for Everton? He might have to play a bit more now, maybe that's why he doesn't want it.

Agent Coulson

Wait if Klopp has that much power to make the preimer league change the rules he should start by making it so other teams playing Liverpool can only start 5 players against Liverpool's 11 and Liverpool get 4 points for a win and everyone else gets negative 2 points for a win.

Fattybojangles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266597#Comment_119266597

He might try that next I mean he was already trying to dictate how Spurs should play his team when they had the temerity to set their team up in a way he didn't like.

Fattybojangles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265664#Comment_119265664

Aww diddums can the poor elite multi million euro athletes not run around for 270 minutes a week no? The difference in quality between the 4th and 5th subs the likes of city liverpool spurs arsenal man utd etc can bring on compared to forest bournemouth fulham villa everton leeds etc is absolutely massive and is just another benefit for the elite on top of all the other advantages they already have.

The naivety of some on here who believe Klopp was going to bat for player welfare is hilarious though I suspect many are not naive at all and support this precisely because it benefits their club.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266766#Comment_119266766

The rules have been in place across Europe for a while now, and the argument you're making just hasn't been borne out in reality.

The 4th or 5th Liverpool sub may be better than Bournemouths 4th/5th sub - but the gap between the 4th or 5th player coming off for Liverpool and the lad coming on tends to be larger than the gap between the lower level starter and sub, particularly in games against the bigger sides where energy is the key addition. The data seems to have borne out that adding more fresh legs helps the smaller sides more, as they battle to hold firm later in games. It's no surprise that the top sides score way more goals late on, as their opposition tires. This change allows more of a refresh for sides hanging in there, so they can do a better job of maintaining first half intensity when it counts in the second half.

Sure just look at the last game-day of the season as both Liverpool and City come back as the opposition simply ran out of legs - their attacking approaches weren't working till the ~75th minute, and it just took the opposition running out of steam for both teams to get the breakthrough. 2 extra changes to add fit players to bring back some energy and maybe one or both of Villa or Wolves are able to hang on for a draw/win.

The other 15 clubs that voted for five subs had no real say it then it was all on klopp townsend should be on mastermind with a chosen subject the voting rules of the premier league.

DM_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266766#Comment_119266766

Can you give examples from the leagues that had 5 subs in place last season to prove any significant advantage?

I mentioned earlier how I thought it would be an advantage in theory but I don't see proof of that in other leagues when comparing the outcome to the premier league last season.

I gave a la liga compared to premier league example earlier and can add that in Germany the top 4, despite playing 34 games rather than 38 the top 4 lost more games than the top 4 in England (32 v 22). Seria A was 23.

England - top 4 lost 22 (had 3 subs)

La Liga - top 4 lost 24 (had 5 subs)

Seria A - top 4 lost 23 (had 5 subs)

Bundesliga - top 4 lost 32 (had 5 subs and less games)

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266988#Comment_119266988

Don't you be coming on here now, armed with actual facts, that totally disprove other people's misplaced beliefs.

You are as bad as Pepsichallenge trying to say that more than Liverpool voted it in!!

This now brings the Premier League in line with both English cup competitions, and the Champions League.

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267107#Comment_119267107

Jasus do people on here actually believe that Klopp alone has the power to enforce this rule! Didn't the Premier League say last year that they would be introducing the 5 sub rule for the 2022/23 to align with the rest of world football and Klopp's major issue was he couldn't understand why they waited the extra year. Townsend's own manager is one of the other managers who called for the 5 subs last year too, did he air his grievances with him?

DM_7

Just looking at premier league last season it appears the bottom 4 last season got 4 points, in total, from games against top 4 sides.

I am not sure 3 or 5 subs would make that return change a whole lot?

The real challenge for clubs with lesser resources is competing against teams that are much lower down the league. So a Nottingham Forest will have to get points against promoted or recently promoted sides while also finding a way to compete with more established sides with premier league squads like Wolves or Southampton.

doc_17

Liverpool making 3 subs or 5 subs won’t be the reason that teams get relegated next season. On a totally unrelated note, it’s gonna be really annoying playing FF and seeing your players not get 90 mins more often.

Teams will make their third sub earlier now than before as they won’t be as worried about injuries. That’s about the only real meaningful change it will make.

DM_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268167#Comment_119268167

I don't think 5 subs are really needed and that coaches may use them to add load to some positions rather than lower effort of the squad.

Some players may become 60min specialists. Hard to imagine coaches won't use the extra subs as part of their overall tactics. In an era where you can change half the team then players can be asked to do even more, wing backs for example can now be asked to cover even more ground and coach can swap both after an hour and still have 3 subs left.

Fitz*

I think the majority of 4th & 5th subs from the big sides will actually be taking off the big players. Saving their energy for other games, after going 2-0 or 3-0 up. Man City & Liverpool are already winning 30 out of 38 games a season, using 3 subs.

That fabled 'bringing on 4 world class subs all at once when drawing at a bottom half club' is not really gonna happen that much in all reality. It's the main hypothetical argument to prevent 5 subs happening.

citytillidie

Well considering teams in Europe will be playing nearly every 3 days until the World Cup it will help.

y0ssar1an22

will the 5 subs work similar to during covid? ie: 5 subs but only 3 opportunities to bring them on.

there are bigger fish to fry than 5 subs that all teams use to varying degrees:

time wasting - think the ball is in play for about 60 mins per game.

var - just be consistent. get rid of the clear and obvious criteria as it introduces too much subjectivity, and only serves to protect the ref/var.

cynical fouls - needs to be a yellow straight off the bat regardless of where on the pitch it is, or how long the game has been on. wouldnt mind seeing an accumulation rule on the cynical fouls. 1st gets a yellow, 2nd a yellow, 3rd a red. that way you stop the rotation of players 'taking turns'.

Fromvert

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269234#Comment_119269234

I believe you still only have the 3 opportunities to bring on subs plus half time.

Another one that was creeping in last season was lads taking a ball to the head/heading the ball and going down with a 'head injury'. That needs stamping out quickly as it could become a mess with players going down every time the ball touches their head. You claim a head injury and you're down the tunnel to be accessed by an independent doctor, no exceptions.

y0ssar1an22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269310#Comment_119269310

100%. forgot about that one.

remember last season some player fucked up a headed clearance (dont remember game), and immediately hit the deck with a head injury. game stopped while the opposition was in a great position.

yer man was up shortly after, after feigning for a while.

if the ref stops the game due to a head injury, off you go (you can make a 'free' temporary sub) for at least 10 mins.

JPA

The point about Klopp is that he frequently didn't use his 3 subs nevermind 5, especially in tight games.

It's for the games where they're 3 up on 60 minutes the 5 subs will actually be used.

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269972#Comment_119269972

Did he not use the third sub a lot of the time in case of an injury and have someone available to replace that injured person with?

doc_17

Yo can’t punish people for going down with a head injury. The idea of it is that soccer was behind nearly every other sport and if managers have to bring a player off there will be pressure on the player to pick himself up and dust himself down, thus creating a dangerous situation for that player.

Just stop the clock at the 70 minute mark every time the ball goes out of play….

Oh, and goalkeepers…..6 second rule needs to be brought back in. I couldn’t care if they catch it, save it or what, you have 6 seconds to get it back into play. They catch a cross, then go to ground, stay there for 5-10 seconds, then carry it the edge of the area for another 10-15 seconds….needs stamping out.

Fattybojangles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266881#Comment_119266881

Ah now come on you can't actually be arguing that the 2 extra plodders that Bournemouth or whoever could bring on would make more of a difference than the 2 extra world class players the likes of city liverpool chelsea etc could bring on? For example if it was Newcastle 0-0 liverpool with 15 to go Liverpool could still potentially bring on the likes of jota or firminio or Henderson etc Newcastle would be bringing on rubbish like Jacob Murphy or Manquillo there is no comparison.