FEC committee & final report - **UPDATE post 442**

Grizzly 45

Be it as it may,as to whatever dubiousness we might believe them to be. They are the official figures from a department that has the responsibility for issuing the imports to this little country of ours.A minister has gone on record to say this it such in our parliament. So that's what we must fly with.Be it 39,309 or 390,000 that are out there! It actually looks good that IMO a minister is Hell bent on trying make a meal out of something that could be quietly sorted by grandfathering those 39 rifles on the QWT,and still getting his grand announcement of making us all safer or whatever else is going on in his fancy boy college educated mind on this matter.

Grizzly 45

he idea of it also being a form of discrimination has also been floated. However while it might hold a teaspoon of water compared to the constitutional argument it still falls short as the law does/will not discriminate based on age, race, religion, etc.

Wild idea,but what is to stop us from forming a religion of gun owners? After all we have been derided in the MSM and by others as "gun worshippers"And yes it would entitle us to have firearms for religious reasons. If the Sikh religion is entitled to carry their "kirpin" [a religious knife ] in public,either a real one or a symbolic version.Why should we be denied to bring holy artefacts to a place of worship every weekend? Sounds kind of nutty I know,but,if there is an opportunity or a loophole...

Cass

Someone has been watching Disney

cosieman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464676#Comment_120464676

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0sdR-UdYzg

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464747#Comment_120464747

Tut tut, you'll get us in bother with the W word.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464676#Comment_120464676

Unsurprisingly there are actually 2 religions being established, one in the US and the other in the UK, with a central tenet being around firearms and their ownership by civilians.

I won't go into much detail since it would be OT but since religious aspects have been incorporated into the secular political sphere more and more in the past decade it isn't surprising that such thinking has created these 2 religious bodies with just such an intent.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465124#Comment_120465124

Yup. Had a word with myself about using the W word, explained the difference and issued an infraction for the profanity in the meme.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466183#Comment_120466183

That level of fairness is why we love ya!

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463731#Comment_120463731

Yes but they are conducting a survey of lengths according to their recommendations with 45cm being thrown out for no reason but pump actions in Germany?!

Any ways the main point is it’s no longer risking jail to have 1 under 61/50cm. No one knew that for sure and many said it would take a court case to find out…well no need now it’s put to bed. So yeah in one way it’s making some firearms restricted but at least not prohibited as was taught the case by the majority.

Zxthinger

I’m trying to comprehend the level of nonsense that’s in these two reports. Who is going to administer all the proposed conditions on licences and a reintroduction of limited licences and authorisations with maps and such for clubs.. ffs this is some carry on here.

Are they pulling figure out of their backside as security standards, sure I might as well just become a dealer and then they can tell me where I can sell and can’t sell guns..

NV now deemed as Restricted item.. lol. But they need advice on the issue..

Thermal users need training to distinguish between bird in bush vs larger animal. seriously! Do they think that serious hunters are shooting aimlessly through hedges and trees with rifles..

Then they go on to suggest that high resolution NV devices can be too good and might fall into the wrong hands and should only be issued to professionals..

It’s fantastic reading really.. I like to know who the professional fox eradicators are in South Kilkenny.

Who’s out scouring the ground on foot because of other BS that prohibits shooting from a vehicle..

Despite the elephant in the room, the nonsense in these reports epitomises the systemic bureaucracy that is enshrined in government entities that are too big to fail and have little to do anymore with all the low gagging fruit gone, wherein they manufacture rules and regulations to justify their bloody existence..

Grizzly 45

Page 14 on the FEC report 1.

Garda dismisses the issue of pistol mag capacity because no one has written to complain to the Firearms Policy Unit Of An Garda Síochána

Are they seriously extracting the urine here??? Why would anyone be writing to them in the 1st place on something like this? Its a piece of legislation backed up by a High Court judgement. Its utterly Kafkaesque this thinking.

Are they pulling figure out of their backside as security standards, sure I might as well just become a dealer and then they can tell me where I can sell and can’t sell guns..

While a timelock might make sense in unattended commercial premises.it makes Zero sense in a domestic house! As our houses are mostly occupied by the owners,who are more than likely going to react by phoning AGS that a break-in is in progress? About the only time AGS will react at full speed to a break in is where there is a gun at the address these days.

Also, how and for what time will we be setting this time lock? Who will even control that we set this lock , will there be a nationally mandated law to when we can have access to our personal property?

Also from recent experience the word "substantial" should be banned from any legislation. Remember the fun of defining a "substantial meal" in the Covid years? So please define what a "substantial amount" of firearms are in law and not leave it open to every Supers interpretation,as then going by some of their comments and views substantial with them could be three or more!!

Thermal users need training to distinguish between birds in the bush vs larger animals. seriously! Do they think that serious hunters are shooting aimlessly through hedges and trees with rifles..

Then they go on to suggest that high-resolution NV devices can be too good and might fall into the wrong hands and should only be issued to professionals.

I SERIOUSLY have to question did anyone on this committee even LOOK at a NV or thermal unit in the flesh so to speak?

Or did they just go and ask some kids about it who play a lot of Call of Duty or Medal of Honour? Because this report reads like the idiocy of the previous legislation on restricting certain features, because...Hollywood!!!

They should be ASHAMED of themselves to produce such a shoddy and ridiculous report. As even an hour's worth of Youtube would educate anyone on the intricacies of working a thermal unit.If you can programme a smart TV, or use a modern mobile phone you are qualified enough to programme and operate such a unit Nor will you get such high-resolution units either on the open market easily

Gen 4 plus that have this high resoloution are ITAR-restricted products outside the US, and even in favoured trading countries like Germany or the UK. They will NOT sell these online or outside their countries not to mind without your proof of ID being produced! As these are "end user certificates" items. Plus they are serious cash too 3to 5 thousand is a good starting price for some of these units. Just another agenda-driven bit of the report with scaremongering.

Grizzly 45

Yes but they are conducting a survey of lengths according to their recommendations with 45cm being thrown out for no reason but pump actions in Germany?

SIGH !!!They even got THAT wrong too. in fact, the barrel length can go down to 32 cm for a rifle and even down to 36 cm for a shotgun. If you are using them for HUNTING purposes only! They are called "Nachsuche waffen" Trans: follow-up guns for tracking and dealing with wounded animals like Wild boar.

As Germany has TWO distinct and different licenses Either for hunting or sports shooter firearms, and neither the twain shall meet.

As a hunter, you can have these types of short rifles and shotguns.But they cannot hold more than three shots! and you can only have TWO short big caliber handguns on your hunting license for Coup de Grace or self-defence out in the hunting let and you can have as many long arms as you want and can fit in your gun safe as well as unlimited ammo.

As a sports shooter, you can have as many Cat C firearms as you can get signed off by your Range master in the gun club you have been practising your desired discipline for the last 12 months and when he thinks you are competent and safe enough to do so.

So that means starting out, usually three shotguns,3 CF/22 handguns and or 3 rifles, disciplines depending. You are good reasoning than everything else per discipline.

You can have the high capacity mags[IE over the 10/20 EU directive] if you are in certain disciplines no trouble, but your barrel lengths stay more or less on par with ours but can go down to 18ins on shotguns and rifles.

CONTEXT is everything in this, and just giving such a half-explained reason as in this report shows whoever said it had no idea of what they were on about Re-German gun laws, So was FEC looking at hunting guns or sports guns over there? inquiring minds want to know!

J.R.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/firearms-committee-recommends-licensing-changes/

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120467028#Comment_120467028

It's a report at this stage. Some, all or none of the recommendations might make it into law. So you can't quite put it to bed just yet.

My personal view is that anything advantageous to shooters won't make it into law and anything that imposes more restrictions on shooters will make it into law.

And the Government could full well implement even more stringent legislation not even hinted at in this report.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468178#Comment_120468178

That will wake up the slumbering giant of the IFA! Already there are some snarky comments coming from its members on the oral permissions and AGS deciding for them who they can or cannot let on their land to hunt.

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468290#Comment_120468290

Disagreement with you there. It’s clearly stated that as it is there’s no prohibition on firearm barrels under 60/50cm. Which supports the “lawful authority” required to hold such a firearm as has been in legislation already. That’s clear as day and now put to bed.

However! What’s not put to bed and I assume is what you’re talking about is the minimum length which is up for debate under 61/50 with 45cm being proposed.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468871#Comment_120468871

Disagree all you want. The FEC reports are only reports. They have zero legal standing. It's the law that counts and as things stand, the law hasn't been changed.

Still grey areas that haven't been tested in the courts.

itisnotgrand

The report is created by AGS and a barrister. The law states it already but this has clarified it

BattleCorp

I think I've explained myself badly. My point is that even though the FEC report was created by AGS and a barrister (and two firearms dealers), it still has no legal standing. The FEC report may be correct in some aspects of the law, but you can't go by what's in the FEC report. You have to go by what's in the legislation.

The FEC report puts nothing to bed as it has no legal standing. A High Court judgement, that would put something to bed.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468178#Comment_120468178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468578#Comment_120468578

Wondering how long it would take for them to take notice.

When their members start to lose lambs and livestock at an alarming rate, when forestry is destroyed, crops all but decimated how long before land owners start to ignore the proposed laws and ask for hunters help?

There is so much more to these proposals other than gun ownership but the Minister can only see the headline of "guns taken off the streets" and is blind the legal, financial, and agricultural implications.

TheEngineer1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469750#Comment_120469750

I've been writing the IFA to make them aware of the impact that these proposed laws will have on predator control, especially the impact on thermal and night vision for fox shooting at night. Didn't receive any replies unfortunately.

Zxthinger

Why don’t we just either fully adopt the German system or the PSNIs system.

If the German model is selected then farmers will see their guns gone unless they adopt training c120hrs.. lol

They failed to highlight the nonsense related to crossbows being restricted and seek redress.. Instead they suggested mandatory insurance and range membership base on this original blunder.

When will they see the light and deregulate these.

A small crossbow might be a kin to a pistol but it’s one shot mate..

A large crossbow is massive and too difficult to conceal lol and not effective beyond that range for which a compound bow or long bow used..

The short rifle barrel issue is a non issue that has been popularised here. If it’s sold here with and legally obtained then it’s legal.

The industry standard from the US is a min barrrel length of 16inches or 400mm and this would be a more suitable figure to start at.

What is the deal with the Black powder that no one has mentioned and did the panel decide not to mention it. perhaps they should ask the PSNI how they do it’s

Grizzly 45

Why don’t we just either fully adopt the German system or the PSNIs system.

No thanks to either... Lets adapt the Czech,Polish,or Austrian or at a bad 3rd the Italian system then.

They failed to highlight the nonsense related to crossbows being restricted and seek redress.. Instead they suggested mandatory insurance and range membership base on this original blunder.

When will they see the light and deregulate these.

A small crossbow might be a kin to a pistol but it’s one shot mate..

A large crossbow is massive and too difficult to conceal lol and not effective beyond that range for which a compound bow or long bow used...

Beats me why anyone would want one of these "high tech low tech" [Modern technology and materials applied to a low tech device that has been about for centuries]sporting equipment?When there are vids aplenty on YT these days that shows lads out in the Far East building very powerful Xbow devices out of household junk and the local scrap pile, that have as good an effect as 900 euro graphite and fibreglass pully and cable device. Feck it one guy Todd Cutler of Todd's workshop shows how to make one using either a bushcraft knife or a plain old handsaw! Easily made,kills pretty good, throwaway...So what now ? Ban junk piles and elastic bands?

delboythedub

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights depend not on their own conduct but, on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless" . I remember when the guns here were Called in someone in the shooting mags stated that if you ban guns only criminals will have them. we thought this guy was off his head .but now when I look at the amount of legally held CF pistols V non legally held pistols in Ireland today that guy was right sadly.

garrettod

Very true, delboythedub.

That old saying "If guns are made criminal, only criminals will have guns", needs to be drilled into every single persons head - as its 100% true!

jb88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447238#Comment_120447238

Right next Door, neighbouring constituency.

If you have ever been to these constituency offices, its recently graduated politics grads and tea makers whom you end up seeing in a lot of cases. This one is no different.

He has completely ignored and put off meeting me and others.

Have had fellow party members talk to him and urge him to meet and still he ignored everyone. No use, doesnt care. Not interested in you me or anyone else with an opinion. Typical second generation politician, who thinks his father's name will carry him. Well that wont wash next election.

The only way to solve that is take away his job next election

hiddenmongoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120473602#Comment_120473602

While I agree, the problem is, that by then we have lost our private property and been lumbered with even more unneeded restrictions on our sport

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120473602#Comment_120473602

All TD's are operating like this now. Back in the day when you went to a TD's clinic you met the TD not the boy in the office. This is why TD's have lost touch with reality on the ground!

Grizzly 45

Anytime I have to meet these people I specify to the office monkeys that I want to speak to the organ grinder in person one to one on constituency business concerning my area.Their job is to shield the TD,so your job is to figure out how to get around those people with a viable excuse that sounds plausible but generic and non threatening.

Next step up is of course a picket of his clinic

garrettod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120473602#Comment_120473602

Need to put massive pressure on all Fianna Fail TDs, insist that they take the matter to MeHole, and spell it out, that ALL of their jobs are on the line here, not just Browne's. 😡

No harm doing similar with FG, thereafter...

Keep reminding them that there are 220,000 - 250,000 licence holders (no need to mention that some people have more than one licence 😉), all of whom have family and friends, so that's a hell of a lot of votes!

garrettod

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/gun-owners-left-sidelined-in-licencing-review-firearms-group/

It would be great to get some support from the farming community on this, help turn up the heath even further on FFGG

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476244#Comment_120476244

While I appreciate the sentiment this is simply not the case. No ones job is on the line over what is a fringe pastime that many consider strange these days.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494204#Comment_120494204

That's the problem though. There are easily 100,000 people here who own guns. Gun owners = voters. If they decided to vote a certain way, plenty of politicians would sit up because there's enough votes there to get them kicked out of their job. Instead, they get to sh1te on law abiding gun owners with no consequences.

The problem here is that local politics is like a Monarchy. My grandfater voted for his grandfather and your son will vote for his son.

delboythedub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493857#Comment_120493857

Strength in Numbers

Chiparus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120473602#Comment_120473602

I wrote to him , I think he is getting quite a few.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494766#Comment_120494766

And ignoring them all. I think he has refused to meet some shooting organisations and his secretary is giving people the brush off on his behalf when he is written to about the semi-auto ban. They are essentially being told to fcuk off.

freddieot

And it's not just 100,000 votes. All my family will be voting AGAINST, these idiots next time round. I reckon 4 votes and counting just here and that's before i count friends etc. Anyone local whose name is on the record as voting to do down any aspect of shooting/hunting/rural sports in general, won't even get into the driveway. We will vote for anyone that stands the best chance against them.

Grizzly 45

Problem is we are not enough in politicans faces about this.We are playing with the Queensbury rules while they are dirty street fighters.Browns and Harris'clinic should be under seige by gunowners every weekend.No doubt they would go bawling about "extreme right wingers"to the media.(Whilst conviently forgetting they have armed Garda protection because of their office).Good!It would give us a chance for us to give our side of the story in MSM ,as us extreme right wingers should then be entitled to airtime as well to refute the charge.

This is all about today ,using msm PR and social media to win a propaganda war,before any sort of discussions take place,and we have alot of learning and catch up to do.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494971#Comment_120494971

Why are we right wing? Just asking for discussion, not trying to be argumentative.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495054#Comment_120495054

Because anyone who is against the governments stance on something these days seems to be branded "right wing".

Its happening in a lot of Western countries and is just intended to deride and dehumanise the state's opponents in the eyes of people who dont read past that label before dismissing what that "right wing" group is complaining/protesting about.

garrettod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494766#Comment_120494766

Great, thanks,it's really important that his local constituents tell him what's going to happen, if he carries on like this.

Might be no harm to force MeHole into the conversation too, though, given its going to be his party that pay the price at national level, for the actions of this rouge small time politican.

In fact, I believe thats what we all should be doing, insisting that our local FF people raise it with MeHole and get you a response from his office - then the party leader has a problem, that can't simply be ignored.

(thereafter, do the same with FG, given they control the actual Minister for Justice position😉).

The Easter break and Joe Buden's visit should not be used by the politicans, to conveniently forget about this issue.

We are a law abidinv, but very powerful group, and it's long past time that we flexed our muscles, to protect our sport, and our rights (to equal treatment, respect etc.)

berettaman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495688#Comment_120495688

Minister Browne has been getting a lot of attention from his local constituents.

Ferns GPA did a good letter and many other clubs besides.

He has received a lot of attention from Wexford RGC also.

If they get a meeting on this subject it will be with Justice dept civil servants in tow.(they were told this)

The vibe is "don't worry about the FEC, that is just a talking shop, there will be plenty of consultation.."(they were told this)

I do not think that is acceptable. Temporary measures introduced by the Government will be permanent-look at USC etc..

B man

berettaman

The Ferns GPA letter to politicians

Dear Minister, TD or Public Representative

I am writing to you on behalf of Ferns & District Game Preservation Association as I have been asked by the committee to contact all our local public representatives for support in opposition to the new firearms Licencing legislation that is being considered by Minister of State for Justice & Equality Mr James Browne on the recommendations by a Firearms Expert Committee selected and set up by the Minister's Department.

 Ireland already has one of the toughest gun ownership laws in Europe and these new rules will put firearms ownership and their legal use out of the reach of many newcomers to shooting sports such as Clay pigeon shooting, game hunting and target shooting .

Current Firearm Licence holders too will be affected by these new requirements due to new costs and constrictions on the use of their firearms.

 I can't begin to stress to you what a devastating effect these ridiculous new requirements, if introduced and written into law will have on nearly all the people connected with shooting sports in your constituency and you would be surprised how many of us there a re.

After the GAA, shooting is one of the biggest sports in Wexford, with over three and a half thousand firearms licenced in the county.

 It is beyond belief to think that the Garda authority and the Department of Justice could be so flippant and uncaring as to try and implement such far reaching and oppressive regulations on firearms owners.

  If you are not familiar with the contents of the Firearms Expert committee proposals, please ask Minister of State Mr Browne or someone in Government to explain and I am sure it will lead you to realise that these requirements that they intend to implement are an injustice to the decent law abiding firearm licence holders in your area... We are not criminals .

  If you wish to contact Ferns & District GPA we will explain in greater detail what the new legislation will mean to us or we would be happy to meet with you to highlight the issues that are most likely going to ruin shooting sports in this country .

  Ferns & District GPA have nearly 100 members, that's 100 families and friends who will be watching closely to see which of our public representatives will help us in our struggle to prevent these ridiculous requirements being shortly passed into law by the Justice Minister.

 The names of the politicians who helped us and to what degree, will be sent by Ferns GPA texting service to all members of our Gun club just before the next elections and a copy of this letter will be circulated to the 64 other Gun club secretaries here in Wexford .

 We are asking for your support and look forward to seeing what you will do to help the thousands of decent people who are licenced Firearms owners in your constituency.

  If you are not in agreement with us we would also be pleased to hear YOUR views or opinions on the new proposed Firearms Legislation and happy to discuss these with you.

Ends

berettaman

Hi All,

I don't want anyone to think clubs or individuals in Wexford are not doing their bit to drive home the issue to Minister Browne.

Thank,

Berettaman

BSA International

Consultation? Gardai are reducing ammo allowances with no consultation.

We all know a politicans promise is worthless.

garrettod

Politicans only care about one thing, that's there very comfortable livelihoods - so sadly, it needs to be made very clear to them, that is what they'll lose, if they allow Browne to railroad these changes through.

As a sporting community, we've been far too tolerant, and far too nice, for far too long. It's time to flex our muscles, and kick a bit of a$$ - metaphorically speaking.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120524168#Comment_120524168

I agree time to stand up to the constant attacks on our sports.

hiddenmongoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120523671#Comment_120523671

Yes, and people are worse to accept it.

Grizzly 45

The vibe is "don't worry about the FEC, that is just a talking shop, there will be plenty of consultation.."(they were told this)

Yeah about as believable as a fox saying he wont eat any of your hens,as he is a great friend of the hens

We make it quite clear to this lot of snakes we DO NOT believe or trust them on this issue,and use their own words from Pat Rabbite TD "Shure,you'll say anything to get a vote.!"

Grizzly 45

Meanime.

Dont know if any of you follow the Irish hunting podcast over on Spotify?

It seems that the two lads who do this were off up in the Dail last week where they met their local TD and apparently have wrangled an open invitation for the various shooting groups to have a day in the Dail giving their submissions and presentations to all interested Govt parties!.

IF this is true, and I can't see why it shouldn't be. This is probably the best news we have had in a long time, as it finally gives every organisation a say if they want on this.

Link here.https://open.spotify.com/episode/6E5pos0zh3I6rI0E8KMJBw Episode 30 road trip to Lenstir house Skip to 18mins in to appx 43 mins

Start asking your orgs as to when they are going to start moving on this folks.