Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235618#Comment_119235618

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235628#Comment_119235628

Read the whole train of my messages I included other areas (not exclusive to deficit) in my commentary. I never once made a singular point "that PS should not be paid while we have a deficit" it if I did can you link it here please. I have included it in the whole array of issues the country faces.

so you are not going to demonstrate why public sector wages should be linked to the deficit? because i stress yet again that you are the person doing so- for two pages now.

i dont know if you are following me here so apologies while i work through it- after that, enjoy the thread i guess hope you get what you need out of it

so:

public servants shouldnt be paid according to market levels for their roles/responsibilities/experience/qualifications

public servants shouldnt be paid with reference to inflation or costs in the wider economy

but

public servants should be paid if the government is making money

or

public servants should be paid if the deficit is dropped

now you may quibble that you're not saying public servants shouldnt be paid nor are you saying that we need to turn into one of what, five? countries in the world not to run a deficit.

but what you are very definitely doing is linking whether public servants get a pay rise to match inflation or salary growth in general to the deficit and public debt

what i am asking you to do is to have the courage of your convictions and tell us, if you believe the above and arent just -as always, tbh- lecturing public servants that they never had it so good, at what level of public debt or deficit you would like us to work for free.

if the answer to that- and remember now three times you've refused to answer- is that is a ridiculous notion then i agree.

but tell me where you stop thinking it is a ridiculous notion?

public sector pay cuts while inflation runs riot?

public sector all reduced to a flat 35k wage?

if all national debt gets called in tomorrow we sacrifice ten public servants a week to make deficit hawks feel better?

should every professional role in the public sector be filled with a contractor? do you have any idea how difficult it is to actually get in qualified and experienced people at the current pay scales in a host of areas? no- you dont.

a final note, what you know about public sector pensions isnt worth the time to read. its a vastly changed beast in the last several years.

HartsHat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235432#Comment_119235432

State finances and company finances bear no resemblance and have completely different characteristics, objectives, restraints etc. When we people get this in to their skulls.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235712#Comment_119235712

Once again where did I say ps pay should be linked to the deficit you need to read the post I was responding too. You say they should be paid the market rate yet in England or across the boarder their counterparts in the public sector are paid less for the comparable work being done and yet two sides of the negotiating table looking to put a price on a pay rise are both public servants so your argument makes no sense as no one knows what the market rate should be. So are you saying ps pay should be linked to inflation - Why should it be so and if we have a recession should their pay be linked and cut to levels that can be afforded? My point and any one reading what I have been saying and following on from other public sector employees posting on here are there are people saying Tesco are getting 10% pay rises so the public sector should get the same. So it kind of suits the narrative of those posters to have a comparison to private sector companies when they look at them and see them getting raises and they want the same and yet when you add in debt and deficits and all the other issues that our public purse finds itself in - all of a sudden you cant compare the governments control on finances with a private sector company. I hope that clarifies my position. Now can you answer my question where do we get the money from. are we

A:) Cutting services

B:) Borrowing more on the never never so our kids and grand kids pay it back with sh1t load on interest

c:) pay more taxes and if so what mechanism will be used.

I have tried to answer your question can you try and answer mine.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235740#Comment_119235740

Yet some on here do exactly that when they see Tesco getting a 10% payrise and saying we in the public sector should get the same

exitstageleft

I think 10%+ inflation would actually be pretty good for the national debt.

Of course, a recession wouldn't...

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236127#Comment_119236127

Not with the insurance that interest rates will be rising to combat inflation, if interest rates rising was not an issue I would completely agree.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236086#Comment_119236086

sorry you didnt answer my question and im not tbh reading another paragraph that takes up a page

i dont believe you are addressing my counterpoint and im kind of done with it

Quitelife

Its not great timing that Medical Fat Cat consultants are getting pay restoration at this time with many earning 200K plus.

They do a couple of days a week or hours a day with the Public list and then spend longer hours creaming the private list, many of these medical consultants pulling half a million a year whilst the public waiting lists get longer and longer. Mad stuff.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236167#Comment_119236167

I did answer your question its just you have no answer for mine sure we can leave it there anyone reading will see whats what

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119229955#Comment_119229955

Im in a similar position ,although the AP grade is actually quite similar to the private sector with regards to finance, can be got easily enough 2-3 years post qualifed accoutancy wise and year 2/3 at AP is near 80k. 80k after qualifying 2 or 3 yrs is very competitive.

HartsHat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236185#Comment_119236185

There are very very few 26 year old APs or anything near it.

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236196#Comment_119236196

Yeah you are right to be fair, but i know a good few APs that havent finished there exams very long but would have started that bit older and have bits of other experience. There are plenty of 30 year old APs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236176#Comment_119236176

how much should public medical consultants earn

how mad are you about remuneration packages in the private sector for employees/consultants for services that people also need?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236220#Comment_119236220

there are plenty of 30 year olds on 80k and more

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236260#Comment_119236260

Right so , theres plenty on 72/75k and they are close to 80k. Edit you said there "are". Sorry.

or to tie the thread together from those two points:

what is the standard responsibility in function for eg an AP in terms of spend/resources and criticality of role in service delivery and what would that map to in a multinational org?

everyone wants to talk about profit or deficit but guys here's the thing: it's about paying people for their role in delivery of a service.

I'd put a lot of AP jobs somewhere around say project manager or the like in a multinational, packages for which you wouldnt blink at 80k starting with matching pension contributions and bonus and a ball of other features besides

ive seen AP operations roles that would be worth a lot more than that, and AP policy roles that maybe wouldn't quite get up to that.

If you're not awful worried about what a middle manager earns in IBM or Google or Microsoft then maybe start a thread about your deficit concerns we're in here talking about wages for job done

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235557#Comment_119235557

National Minimum Wage Act 2000, that’s the yes and the why.

exitstageleft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236137#Comment_119236137

Not sure this is the case. Say interest rates on state loans hit 5% (which would be high). A €100,000 loan for one year would cost €105,000. But if inflation is at 10% then wouldn't the amount owed, in quivalent terms, be €94,500?

Regardless of the accuracy of my figures, I'm pretty sure holding debt is not bad during inflation, as long as you can meet the repayments.

Of course, meeting those repayments might mean getting a raise at work....

Oh my god, can we just cut through all the bullshit here please?

Basically those who are saying civil and public servants and their families who are struggling with the same inflation, the same increases in groceries, fuel, energy, rent and every other living cost that is increasing, as those in the private sector (or Tesco, or AIB) should just smile and suck it up because "the economy" or "what profit are you making" or whatever bloody bullshit excuse you come up with to justify not paying them anything but the crumbs of the table. The same bullshit we heard back in 2008.

Its like Civil and public servants aren't even seen as PEOPLE with families depending on them, and the same worries about making ends meet as anyone in the private sector. Facing into the same hikes we've been told to expect this winter, but with a pittance extra to pay for them.

The vast majority of the public sector are not on €80k a year, or anything like it.

The truth is, I'm not worried about the kids or grandkids in the future, I'm living in the here and now, not 20, 30 years from now. Anyway, at this rate, younger civil and public servants definitely won't be able to afford to have any kids. Not unless they have the sense to hook up with someone who works for Tesco or AIB and gets proper payrises, anyway.

The attitude that we should just gracefully allowed ourselves to be screwed over, and take it with a smile "for the good of the country" or listen to guilt trips about "the kids of the future", yet again, makes me fcuking furious.

lightspeed

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/six-hse-staff-earned-over-500000-last-year-as-accounts-show-40m-of-ppe-and-hand-gel-due-to-expire-before-it-can-be-used-41774166.html

headlines such as the above won't make you any happier. There's a lot of concern over where will the money come from for public sector pay rises but when money is needed it does seem to just appear.

I recall shortly after start of Ukrainian refugees started to arrive Michael McGrath was asked of the cost and he gave a figure in billions. The below article suggests €2.5 billion and regardless of the humanitarian need I've heard very little questions or concern for where the money will come from.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/ireland-housing-for-ukrainian-refugees-next-year-will-cost-e2-5-billion/

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236137#Comment_119236137

They won't raise interest rates near high enough to combat high inflation. The IMF done a great research paper back in 2011 on Fiancial Repression you should look it up this is the exact instrument The ECB are going to use to liquidate thier debt and keep Europe from collapsing (high inflation may cause the normal working class to rise up especially if a food shortage comes, which is an unknown that may cause this idea to go up in flames as well as the Euro zone if it backfires).

They will ideally want inflation 8% and no higher and interest rates 1.5%-2% so a real negative rate of 6%.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236819#Comment_119236819

We will see you only have to look at the U.S at what theirs is up at. As for pay rises to the PS can anyone tell me where we are going to get the money is it

A:) Cuts to services

B:) further borrowing so our kids and grand kids pay it back with a lot of interest

C:) More taxes and what is the mechanism for getting more taxes.

All sh1te aside I think the government need to answer this question for transparency before any pay rises are given along with a plan for the longer term expense that will come in the upping of ps pensions.

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236257#Comment_119236257

The amounts medical consultants earn is eye watering to 99% of the population. Seems a bit mad when someone earns 200K a year for a part time job with the HSE and the HSE badly needs them to work full time to clear the growing waiting list but they won’t because they want to earn another 200k with their private practice .

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236852#Comment_119236852

No doubt it'll be something like the did in the last crash by bailing out the banks with the national pension reserve, and basically fucked the younger generations pensions so now they not only will never afford a house but won't have a pension when the retire either. It's a great place, honestly it's utterly depressing, I'm not a tin foil hat guy but it feels like they want to oppress us into oblivion so they can control everything.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236871#Comment_119236871

This is BS on many levels.

I own a Clinic with consultant rooms and my wife is an A&E Doctor, she could earn more and have better working conditions abroad. Hospitals make enormous amounts of money billing insurance companies for private procedures and if consultants didn’t have private clinics, all those patients would be lumped on to the inefficient public lists. I spoke to a consultant Paediatrician this afternoon who said she spent a couple of hours yesterday trying to sort out a bureaucratic mess in the Hospital that severely restricted her time with patients. An orthopaedic surgeon said he regularly can’t operate on his public patients because the theatre has no staff. Private consulting rooms do not run like that.

If you want to cut waiting lists, hire more Doctors, pay them what they can earn abroad and improve working conditions. Oh, and if you want a €200k wage, if you start in Uni in September, in approx 2034 you will reach consultancy level.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236987#Comment_119236987

how much do you earn?

can the public really afford to pay you that for your services?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237112#Comment_119237112

As a private business owner, what I earn is not your concern, that is between me, my accountant and Revenue.

Peter Flynt

All public servants earning less than 100K should receive a pay rise that matches inflation . . . which is currently between 8-9%. Otherwise they are receiving a pay cut.

They won't receive this from FF/FG (current offer is 2.5% for this year), of course, so their unions should ballot and prepare for strikes.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235557#Comment_119235557

😂

Try running a country without police, schools and hospitals and get back to me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237123#Comment_119237123

correct.

the exact same holds true for public servants salaries fyi.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237173#Comment_119237173

I am not paid by the Government, what I earn is not a public interest story, I am not using the media to support my demand for a wage increase, there is no chance of me going on strike and discommoding the public if I don’t get what I want. My wage is dependent on performance and market forces etc. As a private individual, my neighbours don’t care what I earn, my neighbours have an interest in PS wage negotiations and the impact an impasse will have on their lives. So Snoopsheep, the situations and public interest is very different, that is why no one cares about my wage, and do care about yours.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237205#Comment_119237205

you might want a general exchequer thread lad this is about wage agreements between us and our employer

or maybe you ask the people who fund your business how much you should pay your employees?

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237205#Comment_119237205

Who's using the media to support their demand for a wage increase?

The media in Ireland are a joke.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237213#Comment_119237213

Are you saying your union isn’t briefing the media on their negotiations and the reasons supporting a pay rise?

@fliball123

i think the prices private healthcare operators are charging in this country is a scandal

not only does it contribute to inflation but people would be better off with these services at a much lower price so i think they should all be at say 2005 levels

jesus this IS fun i can see now why a few of ye haunt these threads

who's next. @fliball123 what's your gig son?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237244#Comment_119237244

Don’t use them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237266#Comment_119237266

move

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237235#Comment_119237235

The job of the unions will be to answer the questions of the media not only for the general public to hear but for their members also. As a union member myself I would be very interested to hear union justification for signing up to a rise which is well below the level of inflation (i.e. a pay cut).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237266#Comment_119237266

Couldn't afford them. I'm a civil servant.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237302#Comment_119237302

Good job you have the well run public service health system to rely on.

Klonker

I think the offer by government being reported is very fair, the unions are being greedy as usual. People have to accept, both private and public, that wage increases are going to be less that inflation increases, that we are going to be worse off that previous. As well that the public service will also gain from measures in the budget that help the private sector too e.g. Increasing tax bands and fuel/energy assistance.

exitstageleft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237123#Comment_119237123

Everyone's income should be public knowledge. The revenue already know - just make tax returns public.

It would sort out any gender pay gap nice and quick and make it easier to identify tax dodgers and criminals.

The arguments against this tend to be self-serving.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237355#Comment_119237355

What fuel energy assistance? You mean the odd 100 quid here and there off an electricity bill?

I'd prefer the money in my bank account and I'll manage paying my own bills, thanks.

2.5% is a pittance and to a middle of the scale CO, would be about €14 a week.

As it stands, its looking like social welfare recipients will be getting bigger increases than them. (€20 increase to basic allowances being called for)

Do you think thats fair?

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237355#Comment_119237355

A pay cut is a fair offer? Government is reaping in the benefits of the increased price of energy via taxation and duty yet it appears that people "have to accept" they're going to be worse off because the Government don't believe that inflation should apply to them also.

It's quite impressive for the government to say to its own employees: "Your inflation is 8-9% but ours is 2.5%"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237384#Comment_119237384

Employers may see significant benefits in knowing what competitors are paying, and what an applicant is earning before hiring new staff. It would also make it easier to apply downward pressure on wages if it could be known what other companies pay existing and new staff particularly during a recession , so I have no doubt it would be welcomed in some quarters. Published earnings would be based on what is declared, would it make it easier to identify tax dodgers and criminals? Do criminals usually declare illicit earnings to Revenue? I wouldn’t have thought so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237352#Comment_119237352

Isn't it?

How much are consultants paying you for a suite of rooms in the private clinic you own?

I doubt you'll be worrying about paying your bills this winter.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237355#Comment_119237355

Between last year and this, how much of a pay cut after inflation are you taking?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237503#Comment_119237503

Is the amount being paid into your bank account being reduced? Inflation means goods and services cost more, but your employer has not cut your wage.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/cost-of-living-esri-warns-government-to-resist-public-sector-pay-rises-or-risk-more-inflation-41780854.html

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237586#Comment_119237586

The ESRI are a total irrelevance. They're a Paddy think-tank QUANGO full of extremely well paid insiders who hang around with politicians all day who just happen to periodically produce reports that politicians want to read and hear. They're all about setting the agenda from which the likes of RTE, Newstalk, Today FM and others will just parrot out the same information.